9 ms·

How the UK became the sick man of European tourism

30 points by kasperni 5y ago

golemiprague 5y ago
Assuming anything during covid times is a joke. The passport issue is a non issue, have you ever seen the number of Russians in London? Not only they are not an EU citizens they are also from a country which is not always in very friendly terms. This is just the usual CNN political agenda derived type of "news". I am sure once all the restriction on travelling stop the UK will become again a prime destination for tourism like it always was.
Scoundreller 5y ago
I mean, you might have wanted to have a plan for your bad food and worse weather before leaving the place that has those things. All to make sure a couple people’s 86 karat diamonds can stay safely in their vaults. https://youtu.be/bRBZw4IU8rg https://youtu.be/bRBZw4IU8rg
ghaff 5y ago
It's fairly far down the article but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that, according to the article, most people in the EU don't have passports would be a pretty big stumbling block. I also imagine that the more border crossing is involved (and, yes, travel between EU countries is "crossing borders" but in a sense less so than traveling to non-EU countries), the more hesitant people are likely to be all other things being equal. I probably still wouldn't travel from the US to Europe at the moment.
- ginko 5y ago
  >most people in the EU don't have passports Really? This is kind of surprizing. Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU.
  - albertopv 5y ago
    Not at all, ID is enough. You don't need it when travelling in Shenghen area. I made my passport to travel to USA and Mexico, havent used since.
  - vintagedave 5y ago
    > Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU. No. Your ID card is enough. You don't need a passport to do something like board a flight within the Schengen zone.
    - Hamuko 5y ago
      The only valid ID that I have is my passport though.
      - dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
        He means an EU id card. If you don't have an EU id card then you're not an EU resident and it doesn't apply to you anyway. Edit: except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland it seems. Further edit: OK, so id cards are not compulsory in all EU countries, so I withdraw my comment.
        Hamuko 5y ago
        I'm most definitely an EU resident/citizen (Finnish/citizen of Finland to be precise) and I do not have an EU ID card. I only have my passport.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card It's not compulsory to have one in Finland.
        rich_sasha 5y ago
        UK didn’t really have ID cards while in the EU. They were introduced at one point, but never caught on. I never met anyone having one. A funny side effect, similar to the US I believe, is that you need a driving license to buy booze.
- abraxas 5y ago
  There is also an emotional aspect to this. As someone born in Eastern Europe I feel that Brexit has been specifically targeted at our ethnic group. I have no intention of ever visiting there again, red tape or no red tape. I just don't feel welcome there and I feel offended.
  - markburns 5y ago
    There are a significant number (probably a slight majority by now) of British people who are as saddened by this as you are. And not just the predictable econmoic fallout. I very much enjoyed the multiculturalism and there are plenty like me. The period from around 2005 onwards was for me a great time. European housemates, colleagues and cultural influence. It felt good to be part of something that crossed cultural boundaries. We've lost a lot. I think sometimes the unwelcoming voices are the loudest and are what sticks with us. We'll miss having people like you. Understandable for you to feel offended by the situation though.
    - abraxas 5y ago
      I know there are plenty of people like you and I've met a lot of them during the time I spent there. But I had no idea that there were that many who felt the exact opposite. The emotions are still raw. I have good friends and a couple of amazing mentors who I left behind. What a total, utter mess this is...
      - pasabagi 5y ago
        I feel like britain has this kind of weird mix between a really racist and xenophobic press / ruling elite, and an actually pretty open population. I'm english and I feel totally alienated by the way in which UK culture has changed in recent years, so I can absolutely see why somebody from the rest of europe would feel alienated, but I think under that media verneer, there's the country I grew up in, which is pretty multicultural to its core.
    - vadfa 5y ago
      The unwelcoming voices are not merely "the loudest", they are the most populous ones. I assume you are part of an economically privileged group, but to someone who has just lost his job to a pole, the coolness of "european cultural influence" does not mean shit.
- paganel 5y ago
  > but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that, That and the test procedure craziness, which, granted, was relaxed about a month or so go. Afaik you had to get a test before you entered the plane and another one once you got into the UK, no matter if you were vaccinated, that was costing money (in many cases more than the plane ticket itself) plus it was adding extra stress.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Yes, testing requirements generally are another barrier. For example, even as a fully vaccinated US citizen I would be required to get tested before leaving whatever country I was in to return home. And who knows what rule changes or quarantine requirements I might run into? It's less of a big deal for business travel but things could get expensive in both time and money if it's vacation. Just something I won't deal with right now barring urgent need.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  Also, passports for a family of four don't come cheap. Around ~50-70e per person, in addition to taking significant time. For the same money, they can get two more nights at a holiday resort
- boublepop 5y ago
  > most people in the EU don't have passports Do you have a reference for this? It might be true, but I live in a small European country and have never met or heard of anyone not having a passport, so it sounds very unlikely to me, though of cause we are a small percentage of the total, but is it really the case?
  - vidanay 5y ago
    I think statistically, size of a country is inversely proportional to the percentage of people who hold a passport. This makes sense to me because the smaller (geographically) a country is, the more likely the citizens are to go "elsewhere".
  - Cu3PO42 5y ago
    Anecdotally, I live in Germany and don't have a passport. Lots of people I know do not currently have a valid one either (but may have had one in the past).
  - boudin 5y ago
    In France you have to pay for a passport, not for an id card. Passport is really not a common thing to have when you don't travel outside of EU. Most of my familly and friends i France do not have a passport.
  - Drdrdrq 5y ago
    From the article: > "That's enormously important," says Tom Jenkins, who says that around three quarters of Europeans don't have passports, since they can travel around Europe with their ID cards. Don't know how true this is though.
  - rvieira 5y ago
    https://www.visitbritain.org/sites/default/files/vb-corporate/Documents-Library/documents/consumer_sentiment_research_feb_mar_2021.pdf https://www.visitbritain.org/sites/default/files/vb-corporat... Slide 53, Passport ownership. These numbers are for people that already travelled internationally, before Brexit, so the total number might be much higher.
thriftwy 5y ago
Before the Covid, the requirements for British visa (for those nationals who need it) were prohibitive. It was quite expensive and came with a lot of paperwork, 4-5 times over what Schengen visa application took. I understand that UK faced great migrational pressure, but they also ended up turning away potential tourists. Probably did not matter in 2019 when London was a tourism crown jewel. But, it probably matters now.
arbirk 5y ago
As a Scandinavian we used to visit UK a lot. Now I don't really see any reason to go there or to show it to my kids
- thriftwy 5y ago
  What has changed? I hope you realize that one of Scandinavian countries itself not member of the EU.
  - dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
    Although technically correct, Norway is for all intents and purposes a member of the EU. The main difference it accepts all EU laws without being able to vote on them.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure it is false: there is a reason why Norway is not in the EU, probably related to its oil ans gas riches, and in that area it neither has obligation to uphold EU standards nor does so in practice. The rest of "benign" regulations it may accept wilfully.
      - dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
        I think I'm broadly right [1]. They have opted out of the agriculture policy it seems and do technically have to approve EU laws, but rejecting them is pretty much unheard of. [1] https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/ https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/
- detritus 5y ago
  ..why? - ed for what it's worth, as a Euro-friendly Brit, I hope to visit Stockholm and Sweden generally at least once a decade, for the rest of my life. Love that shit.
adrianb 5y ago
> For 2021, national tourist board Visit Britain has forecast that visitor numbers will be lower even than in 2020, when travel restrictions were at their highest. Not sure how they evaluated the travel restrictions, but in 2020 there were travel corridors between many European countries including the UK, while for most of 2021 to enter the UK there were required PCR tests (usually 3) and home quarantine. 2021 restrictions definitely felt more strict, at least in the summer. Restrictions for arrivals were only lifted for the vaccinated in the autumn.
bArray 5y ago
This reads like a propaganda piece. > How the UK became the sick man of European tourism The pattern 'X is the sick man of Y' specifically refers to 'Sick man of Asia' [1]. It's often used as an insult to Chinese people, but an insult they often like to use against other Countries. Later in the article you then see lots of references to Chinese people not wanting to visit the UK. It sounds like the author spoke to the 'travel experts' (e.g. Marcus Lee, CEO of China Travel Online) and then wrote this article. The truth is, the UK and neighbouring Countries are all extremely close to getting back to normality in spite of a rise in cases. This is China redirecting from the fact that they have a much larger tourism issue - they have essentially banned all foreigners from entering. Even if you could enter, the CCP have mounted an effective campaign to blame COVID on foreign origins (such as pretty much any bio-research lab in the US), and there is very large anti-foreign sentiment among the population. If you want to see somewhere crippled by lack of tourism, look no further than Macau which reportedly had 50.2% of their GDP generated by travel and tourism in 2019 [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100368/countries-highest-gdp-travel-tourism/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100368/countries-highes...
- LiquidSky 5y ago
  >The pattern 'X is the sick man of Y' specifically refers to 'Sick man of Asia' [1]. ...no, it doesn't. As even your linked article notes, the phrase originated as the "sick man of Europe"[1], referring to the Ottoman Empire in the mid-19th century. It was later applied to China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe

30 points by kasperni 5y ago

Assuming anything during covid times is a joke. The passport issue is a non issue, have you ever seen the number of Russians in London? Not only they are not an EU citizens they are also from a country which is not always in very friendly terms. This is just the usual CNN political agenda derived type of "news". I am sure once all the restriction on travelling stop the UK will become again a prime destination for tourism like it always was.

Scoundreller 5y ago

I mean, you might have wanted to have a plan for your bad food and worse weather before leaving the place that has those things. All to make sure a couple people’s 86 karat diamonds can stay safely in their vaults. https://youtu.be/bRBZw4IU8rg https://youtu.be/bRBZw4IU8rg

ghaff 5y ago

It's fairly far down the article but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that, according to the article, most people in the EU don't have passports would be a pretty big stumbling block. I also imagine that the more border crossing is involved (and, yes, travel between EU countries is "crossing borders" but in a sense less so than traveling to non-EU countries), the more hesitant people are likely to be all other things being equal. I probably still wouldn't travel from the US to Europe at the moment.

ginko 5y ago
>most people in the EU don't have passports Really? This is kind of surprizing. Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU.
- albertopv 5y ago
  Not at all, ID is enough. You don't need it when travelling in Shenghen area. I made my passport to travel to USA and Mexico, havent used since.
- vintagedave 5y ago
  > Even with Schengen, you'd want to have a passport when traveling within the EU. No. Your ID card is enough. You don't need a passport to do something like board a flight within the Schengen zone.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    The only valid ID that I have is my passport though.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
      He means an EU id card. If you don't have an EU id card then you're not an EU resident and it doesn't apply to you anyway. Edit: except Denmark, Iceland and Ireland it seems. Further edit: OK, so id cards are not compulsory in all EU countries, so I withdraw my comment.
      - Hamuko 5y ago
        I'm most definitely an EU resident/citizen (Finnish/citizen of Finland to be precise) and I do not have an EU ID card. I only have my passport.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card It's not compulsory to have one in Finland.
      - rich_sasha 5y ago
        UK didn’t really have ID cards while in the EU. They were introduced at one point, but never caught on. I never met anyone having one. A funny side effect, similar to the US I believe, is that you need a driving license to buy booze.
abraxas 5y ago
There is also an emotional aspect to this. As someone born in Eastern Europe I feel that Brexit has been specifically targeted at our ethnic group. I have no intention of ever visiting there again, red tape or no red tape. I just don't feel welcome there and I feel offended.
- markburns 5y ago
  There are a significant number (probably a slight majority by now) of British people who are as saddened by this as you are. And not just the predictable econmoic fallout. I very much enjoyed the multiculturalism and there are plenty like me. The period from around 2005 onwards was for me a great time. European housemates, colleagues and cultural influence. It felt good to be part of something that crossed cultural boundaries. We've lost a lot. I think sometimes the unwelcoming voices are the loudest and are what sticks with us. We'll miss having people like you. Understandable for you to feel offended by the situation though.
  - abraxas 5y ago
    I know there are plenty of people like you and I've met a lot of them during the time I spent there. But I had no idea that there were that many who felt the exact opposite. The emotions are still raw. I have good friends and a couple of amazing mentors who I left behind. What a total, utter mess this is...
    - pasabagi 5y ago
      I feel like britain has this kind of weird mix between a really racist and xenophobic press / ruling elite, and an actually pretty open population. I'm english and I feel totally alienated by the way in which UK culture has changed in recent years, so I can absolutely see why somebody from the rest of europe would feel alienated, but I think under that media verneer, there's the country I grew up in, which is pretty multicultural to its core.
  - vadfa 5y ago
    The unwelcoming voices are not merely "the loudest", they are the most populous ones. I assume you are part of an economically privileged group, but to someone who has just lost his job to a pole, the coolness of "european cultural influence" does not mean shit.
paganel 5y ago
> but it would seem as if the need for a passport given that, That and the test procedure craziness, which, granted, was relaxed about a month or so go. Afaik you had to get a test before you entered the plane and another one once you got into the UK, no matter if you were vaccinated, that was costing money (in many cases more than the plane ticket itself) plus it was adding extra stress.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Yes, testing requirements generally are another barrier. For example, even as a fully vaccinated US citizen I would be required to get tested before leaving whatever country I was in to return home. And who knows what rule changes or quarantine requirements I might run into? It's less of a big deal for business travel but things could get expensive in both time and money if it's vacation. Just something I won't deal with right now barring urgent need.
thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
Also, passports for a family of four don't come cheap. Around ~50-70e per person, in addition to taking significant time. For the same money, they can get two more nights at a holiday resort
boublepop 5y ago
> most people in the EU don't have passports Do you have a reference for this? It might be true, but I live in a small European country and have never met or heard of anyone not having a passport, so it sounds very unlikely to me, though of cause we are a small percentage of the total, but is it really the case?
- vidanay 5y ago
  I think statistically, size of a country is inversely proportional to the percentage of people who hold a passport. This makes sense to me because the smaller (geographically) a country is, the more likely the citizens are to go "elsewhere".
- Cu3PO42 5y ago
  Anecdotally, I live in Germany and don't have a passport. Lots of people I know do not currently have a valid one either (but may have had one in the past).
- boudin 5y ago
  In France you have to pay for a passport, not for an id card. Passport is really not a common thing to have when you don't travel outside of EU. Most of my familly and friends i France do not have a passport.
- Drdrdrq 5y ago
  From the article: > "That's enormously important," says Tom Jenkins, who says that around three quarters of Europeans don't have passports, since they can travel around Europe with their ID cards. Don't know how true this is though.
- rvieira 5y ago
  https://www.visitbritain.org/sites/default/files/vb-corporate/Documents-Library/documents/consumer_sentiment_research_feb_mar_2021.pdf https://www.visitbritain.org/sites/default/files/vb-corporat... Slide 53, Passport ownership. These numbers are for people that already travelled internationally, before Brexit, so the total number might be much higher.

thriftwy 5y ago

Before the Covid, the requirements for British visa (for those nationals who need it) were prohibitive. It was quite expensive and came with a lot of paperwork, 4-5 times over what Schengen visa application took. I understand that UK faced great migrational pressure, but they also ended up turning away potential tourists. Probably did not matter in 2019 when London was a tourism crown jewel. But, it probably matters now.

arbirk 5y ago

As a Scandinavian we used to visit UK a lot. Now I don't really see any reason to go there or to show it to my kids

thriftwy 5y ago
What has changed? I hope you realize that one of Scandinavian countries itself not member of the EU.
- dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
  Although technically correct, Norway is for all intents and purposes a member of the EU. The main difference it accepts all EU laws without being able to vote on them.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure it is false: there is a reason why Norway is not in the EU, probably related to its oil ans gas riches, and in that area it neither has obligation to uphold EU standards nor does so in practice. The rest of "benign" regulations it may accept wilfully.
    - dkjaudyeqooe 5y ago
      I think I'm broadly right [1]. They have opted out of the agriculture policy it seems and do technically have to approve EU laws, but rejecting them is pretty much unheard of. [1] https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/ https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/
detritus 5y ago
..why? - ed for what it's worth, as a Euro-friendly Brit, I hope to visit Stockholm and Sweden generally at least once a decade, for the rest of my life. Love that shit.

adrianb 5y ago

> For 2021, national tourist board Visit Britain has forecast that visitor numbers will be lower even than in 2020, when travel restrictions were at their highest. Not sure how they evaluated the travel restrictions, but in 2020 there were travel corridors between many European countries including the UK, while for most of 2021 to enter the UK there were required PCR tests (usually 3) and home quarantine. 2021 restrictions definitely felt more strict, at least in the summer. Restrictions for arrivals were only lifted for the vaccinated in the autumn.

bArray 5y ago

This reads like a propaganda piece. > How the UK became the sick man of European tourism The pattern 'X is the sick man of Y' specifically refers to 'Sick man of Asia' [1]. It's often used as an insult to Chinese people, but an insult they often like to use against other Countries. Later in the article you then see lots of references to Chinese people not wanting to visit the UK. It sounds like the author spoke to the 'travel experts' (e.g. Marcus Lee, CEO of China Travel Online) and then wrote this article. The truth is, the UK and neighbouring Countries are all extremely close to getting back to normality in spite of a rise in cases. This is China redirecting from the fact that they have a much larger tourism issue - they have essentially banned all foreigners from entering. Even if you could enter, the CCP have mounted an effective campaign to blame COVID on foreign origins (such as pretty much any bio-research lab in the US), and there is very large anti-foreign sentiment among the population. If you want to see somewhere crippled by lack of tourism, look no further than Macau which reportedly had 50.2% of their GDP generated by travel and tourism in 2019 [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100368/countries-highest-gdp-travel-tourism/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1100368/countries-highes...

LiquidSky 5y ago
>The pattern 'X is the sick man of Y' specifically refers to 'Sick man of Asia' [1]. ...no, it doesn't. As even your linked article notes, the phrase originated as the "sick man of Europe"[1], referring to the Ottoman Empire in the mid-19th century. It was later applied to China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe