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Austria to declare nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated people
- incrudible 5y ago> The vaccines don't stop people from spreading it though...? (dead comment that deserves a reply) It is ostensibly for their own good and to prevent the collapse of the healthcare system that, coincidently, has reduced capacity over 2020.
- m0zg 5y agoLitmus test on whether this is about "health" and "science" rather than mindless compliance: are people who already had covid exempt from the lockdown and vaccination? And if not, why not?
- gyz 5y agoThey are exempt. It's "2g" rules (geimpft, genesen), so you can have had it or be vaccinated. For clubs and similar they're introducing 2g+ which means you also need a PCR test.
- formerly_proven 5y ago> 2g+ Lost opportunity for some more confusing naming there, like 2gg or 2g+g or perhaps even 2g².
- m0zg 5y agoThis is, sadly, something the US government is too dumb to copy. More than half the country already had the disease and they pretend it's not the case.
- outside1234 5y agoMakes sense to me.
- zero102 5y ago> we don't live in a police state... Shocking statement that demonstrates more attempt to spin than inform. Supposing we take the webster dictionary definition of police state: "political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures" Considering this effects up to 40% of the population according to the article it checks quite a few boxes: 1. Arbitrary: No precedent, first in the world to do so, with no evidence this will solve the problem in total (controlling covid completely). 2. Repressive government control: There's no argument this fits the strictest definition of repressive. 3. Exercise of power by the police: There's no statement they'll use "secret police" but certainly the enforcement will be aggressive and severe to keep 40% of the population locked down. It's not like watching one person's house. That's a lot of people. For the record, I am not against vaccines. I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost, for whatever reason, in any condition. The "price to pay in society" isn't to violate your bodily autonomy, and therefore the non-aggression principle, but make a personal decision to avoid or interact with people you disagree with. It turns out that all it took to test the waters of liberty and free will was deciding what you want to, and what you dont want to, put in your body. You would even think this would be a cut and dry case considering the alleged "libertarian" leanings of HN, but to my surprise it seems many people are willing to sacrifice this fundamental liberty for ephemeral (possibly even negative) gain. We're 2 years into 15 days to flatten the curve. We have all the evidence to show this won't fix anything unless these people are locked down permanently. At that point they may as well be thrown in prisons, or camps, or whatever the dictator says to do. Democracies can't simply hold you down and inject you with chemicals but coercing these people with objectively police state style tactics is the way tyrants dressed as democratic leaders effectively accomplish the same thing.
- woodruffw 5y agoWait until you hear about the vaccines they made you get as a child, before you were allowed to go to school!
- 5y ago
- thepangolino 5y agoCan they do Jews next? /s
- omot 5y agoEven with the /s and assuming best intentions, this made me upset. Sorry I'm downvoting and flagging.
- dang 5y ago"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls. In egregious cases you can always send a link to hn@ycombinator.com so we can look into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- omot 5y agoUnderstood!
- dang 5y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamebait and unsubstantive comments and ignoring our request to stop. Not cool. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- bongcloud420 5y agoThe vaccines don't stop people from spreading it though...?
- jessaustin 5y agoCan we find a source for this story reputable enough that the sidebar isn't half "Amber" alerts? [EDIT:] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/world/europe/austria-chancellor-lockdown-unvaccinated.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/11/world/europe/austria-chan...
- Ekaros 5y agoI think this isn't enough and wrong way to do things. Only true way would be maximum of 24h old test result. Anything else is putting others including vaccinated people in danger.
- kodyo 5y agoListen to yourself. This is insane.
- Ekaros 5y agoNo, if safety is paramount it is the only way. And I don't see it as any more fascist as lockdown for unvaccinated.
- kodyo 5y agoYou’re worried about vaccinated people being in danger of the thing they’re vaccinated against. Either they work or they don’t.
- Ekaros 5y agoIf vaccinated people aren't in danger they don't need protection from unvaccinated. If they are they also need protection from vaccinated. On other hand willingly unvaccinated are willing to accept the risks, so it should be up to them. If we want to truly protect those who can't take vaccines testing and lockdowns for those who have not been tested is only way.
- 4ad 5y agoIn Austria until last week PCR tests were deemed adequate. Now they aren't anymore.
- throwaway2077 5y agoI wholeheartedly approve such measures, but can we do this for more diseases, please? HIV/AIDS, for example. 700 thousand deaths and 1.5 million new cases in 2020. there are so many things we could do to prevent most of those, just think about it.
- Ekaros 5y agoAny long term viral or bacterial disease and you are forever banned from going outside. After all there is never zero risk of spreading.
- passing_by_and 5y agoSure, take it further, why should you have the right to drive a car? People get killed all the time. We should ban it. How about all those people who recklessly go swimming and then drown. I mean they are using up valuable resources. Swimming should be banned. What about candy bars? Think of the savings in health care if we just fed people sawdust. I agree with all the posters here. We need to put everyone in camps for their own good. Thank god COVID came along and we realized human rights were just a joke.
- Ekaros 5y agoCars are relatively safe. What is the issue is that we allow pedestrians on streets. In the winter there is risk of slipping and hitting head. In summers dehydration and death. We should design our cities better. Lock the people inside and only allow access from behind guardrails to parkin spots. Bikes should be straight out.
- scruffyherder 5y agoI hope they are required to wear some kind of badge so we know to stay well away from them if they are permitted outside
- throwawayfear 5y agoIf you support this you are a Nazi
- bananapear 5y agoGiven that the currently available vaccines are all non-sterilising (do not prevent infection and transmission), it is difficult to see this as a measure aimed at controlling transmission. It is terrifying to me that a government is confining healthy people to their homes for refusing a treatment that they (rightly or wrongly) believe is not in their best interests. Of course, recorded cases are likely to fall naturally at some point. If the fall is coincident with the introduction of this rule, we can expect the same across the West.
- arkitaip 5y agoSociety forcing people to behave in a certain way is a fundamental aspect of any and all civilizations. At certain points, you rights have to give way for the collective good, especially when people's lives are at stake.
- MonkeyClub 5y ago"Social bullying has happened before, so accept it now, as it's for a good cause" is not the best of arguments. Fundamental rights and liberties are fundamental for a reason.
- fy20 5y agoI was pro-lockdown when they first started, but the mandates coming out now don't really make any sense. It seems like politicians are just imposing new restrictions because they need to be seen doing something. In my (EU) country you need to be vaccinated to go into most shops, restaurants, bars, and beauty services. However you can freely go to your office and not wear a mask. Even the people working in places where as a customer you need to be vaccinated, do not themselves need to be vaccinated. I'm fully vaccinated, but I have friends who are not. The people who do not want to be vaccinated have their reasons, and I doubt these restrictions which cause mild inconveniences at best (compared to lockdowns like last winter, where some stores were closed for 3 month and you couldn't leave your city) are really going to make them change their mind. If they really want everyone to be vaccinated, they should just come out and say that, then work to get it passed into law.
- 5y ago
- bighi 5y agoGood for them. I wish other governments did the same. We could all work together to get rid of this disease, but this will never happen if we let people that refuse medicine to walk freely contaminating others.
- dempseye 5y agoThis is an endemic disease of humans and will never be eradicated.
- bsaul 5y agowhat data makes you think vaccine prevents spreading ? I haven't found any compelling case that would go in that direction. Number of cases seem totally unrelated to vaccination coverage..
- bellyfullofbac 5y agoVaccines reduce spreading, reduce hospitalizations, and reduce serious illness Saying "the vaccines don't work at all" is IMO equivalent to saying seatbelts don't work at all, they should be abolished, because someone wrecked and died at 200mph while wearing seatbelts.
- native_samples 5y agoSeatbelts do work yet the data on vaccines is - in the very few countries that publish the needed data - by now very clear. Only six months after vaccination the vaccinated are actually much more likely to get COVID than the unvaccinated. Yes this sounds wrong but the data is unambiguous. The UK breaks out cases by age and status. For over 30s case rates are now double or higher. Check my comment history for links.
- detaro 5y agoAnd according to the same UK data, the unvaccinated are much more likely to end up hospitalized or dead. Seems useful.
- stevens37 5y agoYou can leave your place also for any physical and mental recreation. Otherwise you can buy everything on the internet so this is mainly bad for the local shops. The gov is rather hysterical because of the recent corruption scandal
- fuu_dev 5y agoAustria also discusses switching to 1G what would mean that only people who count as fully vaccinated would not be locked down but there is still discussion on the definition and limitations of this. There is also further discussion about requiring PCR-Tests for the non restricted groups.
- fuu_dev 5y agoSome data points.: Austria has a around 60% vaccination rate² and around 12% of the population had an documented infection³. Herd immunity is a discussion point but scientists are undecided how high the numbers need to be. Estimates from earlier this year did talk about 60% but this number was raised and some experts even say its impossible. 2: https://orf.at/corona/daten/impfung https://orf.at/corona/daten/impfung 3: https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/austria/ https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-m...
- fuu_dev 5y agoRegulations up to recent was 3g (since august). The implementation was the following: - FFP2 Mask mandated in essential services like pharmacies, grocery store and postal offices for everyone. - No Mask or distancing mandate for anyone who was vaccinated or recovered. - Mask mandate and a negative covid test that is not older than 24/48h depending on the testing method for non vaccinated for anything outside of essential services.
- fuu_dev 5y agoYou count as fully vaccinated with 2 doses. The minimum time between 2 vaccinations is 2 weeks but it might be better to have a longer interval according to research². Recovered need to wait for a minimum of 21 days before getting a vaccination. Vaccination need to be refreshed after 270 days. 2:https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1875 https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1875
- bob229 5y agoWe should spread this virus as fast as possible and refuse all treatment to the unvaccinated idiots.
- 1cvmask 5y agoMaybe Austrians who are unvaccinated and cherish their freedoms will move to China??
- 4ad 5y agoI am not sure what you mean, care to elaborate?
- 6nf 5y agoI think it's in reference to the Chinese stance against vaccine mandates
- josephcsible 5y agoChina is notoriously one of the least free countries on Earth. GP is implying that Austria will soon be even less free if they keep this up.
- tinus_hn 5y agoIt’s a demonstration of the straw man argument. He puts up a ridiculous idea so he can then proceed to make it look ridiculous.
- bsaul 5y agoAnd the next step is ?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- myaccoun90 5y agoObviously, it would be convenient if the unvaccinated are gathered into some specific locations so the rest of the country can get on with life. After all, they can't just be left sprinkled all over. They could be called freedom camps or something catchy and people would just telework and live there.
- mwint 5y agoDid you just advocate literal concentration camps for those who disagree with you?
- peakaboo 5y agoIt's great that covid came along so dystopia could be built up in just a few years instead of decades. Just like how 9/11 transformed the world because Patriot act, secret prisons, secret courts, secret spying. I for one welcome our new future where we merge with machines and become less human than ever, because think of how safe we will be when we won't even have any contact with eachother anymore!
- 6nf 5y agoI see it too. We lost many freedoms after 9/11 and it's certainly happening again with covid.
- 4ad 5y agoAnd the scary part of it is that it doesn't come from some authoritarian tyrant, but rather it's supported by most, or at least a very significant part of the population...
- lazide 5y agoSomewhat unrelated, but FYI - No authoritarian tyrant exists without support of, or at a minimum, indifference from, most of the population. It may not be literally a majority, but it often is.
- iammisc 5y agoThere is no such thing as a tyrannical dictator. Only tyranny. Ultimately, all tyrants enjoy broad support. The only way to be tyrannical is with broad popular support. Just look at afghanistan
- emilsedgh 5y agoMerge with machines? With a vaccine? I've had many vaccines. Am I 95% human now? or 90%?
- josephcsible 5y agoMerging with machines as in doing everything over Zoom and in VR due to lockdowns, not as in being vaccinated makes you a machine.
- askcvv 5y agoMeanwhile, Sweden enjoys extremely low case numbers and fatalities. Perhaps Sweden did the right thing? Unthinkable, let's repeat failed policies ad infinitum!
- spamizbad 5y agoSweden basically did soft lockdowns: capacity limits, mandated social distancing, masking, and closures of schools and universities.
- 6nf 5y agoNo businesses were shut down, pubs and clubs were open and no masks were ever required to enter a business. They closed a few public buildings for a short time but nobody was ever locked down.
- PeterisP 5y agoSweden has already had more cases and more deaths than Austria, both in absolute and per capita numbers, and has a larger vaccination rate than Austria.
- tinus_hn 5y agoFreedom is worthless. Better live your life in lockdown, than stand a 1% chance of dying. Or actually, better for someone else to live their life in lockdown, than to have me stand a 1% chance of dying.
- twofornone 5y agoAccording to this source [0], it looks like something like 80% of the population is vaccinated. If they are still implementing lockdowns with an 80% vaccination rate, maybe it's time to acknowledge that the efficacy numbers we've been fed are a little optimistic? This is hardly unique to australia. UK, Ireland, Israel, and other highly vaccinated nations are experiencing record case numbers. Where is the skepticism? I feel like 80% of the population has gone totally crazy, completely unwilling to question the safety or efficacy of the vaccines, as though they were sacrosanct. 0. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-interactive/2021/nov/08/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-australia-vaccination-rate-progress-how-many-people-vaccinated-percent-tracker-australian-states-number-total-daily-live-data-stats-updates-news-schedule-tracking-chart-percentage-new-cases-today https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/ng-inter... Edit: article is about austria. Still, the accusations of being "antivaxx" are dishonest. Not all vaccines are created equal. And in any case a ≈65% vaccination rate failing to contain the virus still does not bode well for estimates of effectiveness. Something's not right and the discussion needs to be had.
- threatofrain 5y agoIMO, in the modern world, either the professional institutions of your society are trustworthy or people are screwed. Individual investigation into the sciences cannot be the last refuge of a nation under stress.
- PeterisP 5y agoWhich source? The Austrian announcement stated that roughly 65% of the population is fully vaccinated against Covid-19, one of the lowest rates in western Europe. [edit] aahh, you linked Australia instead of Austria - that's pretty much exactly on the opposite side of the globe.
- bellyfullofbac 5y agoLOL, grandparent actually mixed Austria and Australia up... well done!
- latchkey 5y ago
- walterbell 5y agoSample of early 2020 social media, which inspired Western lockdowns, https://twitter.com/michaelpsenger/status/1454875131193397251 https://twitter.com/michaelpsenger/status/145487513119339725... > In one notorious clip, the spontaneously dying man throws his arms out to catch himself
- spuz 5y agoWhat is the relevance of these clips?
- walterbell 5y agoDid any Western country use "lockdown" as a public health measure before 2020? Many countries spent years developing public health plans for pandemics, based on decades of expert consensus.
- spuz 5y agoI'm still not on the same page. What do those clips have to do with western countries' responses to the pandemic?
- walterbell 5y agoThey are clips which helped to justify the first lockdown in 2020.
- spuz 5y agoFirstly, if you're willing to try to convince me that's true then I'm happy to hear your reasoning. Secondly, assuming your premise I don't see how that would become relevant to justifying a lockdown based on vaccination status. How do you make that logical jump?
- walterbell 5y ago
- wezzo 5y agoHow easy is it to fake Austrian vaccination cards? The ones my friends have (in Dallas, TX) are indistinguishable.
- myaccoun90 5y agoIt's a digitally signed QR code with your name on it. You can't fake it. Some just reuse some other QR code and hope nobody cross-checks the name with some other ID.
- akoncius 5y agohere in Lithuania we already have some cases when people were caught using fake/other people's QR code and got punished for it. another case was that doctors were bribed to sign a document that person was vaccinated even if that person has not visited vaccination center. so yeah, there are attempts, but at the same time, law enforcement works its job sometimes.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- 4ad 5y agoWe use the EU-wide QR system. I don't know how easy is to get a fake certificate that would pass scrutiny, but here in Austria nobody seems to really check them. If you have something with a QR code on it, they let you pass.
- bellyfullofbac 5y agoYeah it uses cryptographic signing, but fails at the human level when the checker doesn't use the app to check it and doesn't check the holder's ID. But there were reports that some Germans were selling the certificates on the "dark web" (i.e. you have to know the WhatsApp number of the seller), and are working with rogue pharmacy employees to issue valid certificates...
- ratww 5y agoIn stores and restaurants they are rarely checked, but in the cinema and in concerts I had to bring a document.
- walterbell 5y agoHow many Austrians have already recovered from Covid infection and thus have long-lasting nasal/mucosal sterilizing immunity that stops both infection and transmission, unlike vaccines which reduce severity of symptoms and risk of death? CDC estimates 146 million Americans have already been infected, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
- glogla 5y agoThose do count as vaccinated, as far as I know.
- walterbell 5y agoIn the EU with proof of recovery, but sadly not (yet?) in the US.
- Fronzie 5y agoWith the side-effect that if one is vaccinated with the Janssen vacin, one cannot enter Austria. But also, in the Netherlands, booster shots for those people are not available. So quite a few people are now prohibited from entering Austria just because to get assigned to have the Janssen vacin instead of e.g. Biontech/Pfizer.
- 66fm472tjy7 5y agoIt is my understanding that a single dose of the Janssen vaccine is still recognized until 2021-01-02 [0]. After that, you need to have an additional dose of any EMA-approved vaccine. I assume you would be able to get a booster off-label in the Netherlands. [0] https://gruenerpass.gv.at/geimpft/ https://gruenerpass.gv.at/geimpft/ "03. Jänner 2022 ist das Impfzertifikat einer einmaligen Janssen Impfung nicht mehr gültig."
- leokennis 5y agoCorona vaccination in the Netherlands has been pretty strictly “invite only”. I.e. once your age group had its turn, you got an invite to make an appointment to get the injection. Currently no one in NL has gotten any booster yet. They hope to start 60+ somewhere beginning of December. So as an example, come 03-01-2022, if you’re 30 and you have a Janssen shot and you want to go to Austria you’re out of luck. It’ll be months before you’re going to get the booster and you cannot “get it off label”.
- bookofjoe 5y ago"In the fall of 1988, the Los Angeles Times published one of the first feature stories in the U.S. media about the Cuban HIV sanatorium system. The article quoted a New York City doctor that had visited Havana, who called the institutions 'pleasant but frightening,' and that their use as a public health response to HIV could 'only be termed totalitarian.'" 'From 1986 until 1994, Cuba quarantined people living with HIV in medical facilities called sanatorios, or sanatoriums.' https://nacla.org/news/2017/11/29/cuba%E2%80%99s-hiv-sanatoriums-prisons-or-public-health-tool https://nacla.org/news/2017/11/29/cuba%E2%80%99s-hiv-sanator...
- ifyoubuildit 5y agoAll of the headlines I've seen on this are misleading. It's not actually a lockdown for unvaccinated people, it's a lockdown for unvaccinated and never infected people (see https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information/entry-regulations https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-in...). I think this would surprise a lot of Americans at least, since their government pretends that prior infections don't matter. That said, it does send a chill up my spine to read about a country locking down a specific subset of their population.