19 ms·

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate wit

We really need a terminology to differentiate better between pedal-assist only e-bikes ("pedelec") and electric motorbikes. A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. BTW this reminds me of the old french "Solex / VéloSolex": basically a real engine put on top of the front wheel, and able to accelerate by itself without the need to pedal. But the thing still had pedals. I used to use one and still have one in a garage. But I didn't use it on the bicycle lanes... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX

5faulker 5y ago
E-bike is basically the smaller version of electric cars, whose sustainability depends on how we power our energy (not that they have a circular manufacturing process of course).
jacquesm 5y ago
This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. A typical ride has me providing 40 to 60% of the Joules and the remainder comes out of the battery. If there is a very heavy wind up (not rare here) that might drop to 30/70 and if I have a tailwind it is the reverse. The bike has a nice stats display where it tracks all this stuff. Maximum assist is 350W (10A current out of a nominally 36V battery), at the wheel considerably less than that, this is only used when starting up from a complete stop. The rest of the time you're at a small fraction of that.
- QuercusMax 5y ago
  My wife just bought an ebike (from RadPower) that has both pedal assist and a throttle that doesn't require pedaling. You can also adjust the amount of pedal assist so you can "feather pedal". Who's going to confiscate this bike????
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - oppositelock 5y ago
    It depends where you are. Most EU countries forbid throttles, but they're ok in the US as long as your under 1000W motor output (Federal laws), but local laws can make this stricter. I've built several e-bikes, for fun, and like the author of this article, I've got a long range one, but only with about half of his battery capacity, which is enough for me.
  - hendersoon 5y ago
    Depends on your country, really. Throttle ebikes are legal in the USA so long as they don't go faster than 20MPH on throttle alone. And really speed is what matters here. Who cares if it's pedal-assist or throttle so long as you aren't going markedly faster than normal people without any motor at all? There's no safety concern.
    - mikepurvis 5y ago
      At a certain point, you've added enough extra mass to the vehicle in terms of batteries, motor, beefed up brakes and frame, etc that you need to start asking questions about how much kinetic energy it's carrying and what happens to it all in case of a crash. Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it to 5km/h.
      - otabdeveloper4 5y ago
        Yeah, there's an argument to be made somewhere here about banning obese people from running. :P
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        The weight of the bike + rider is still well below what some riders weigh all by themselves. Compared to a scooter it's a featherweight, compared to a regular e-bike it's about a 5 Kg premium.
      - 5y ago
- pcwalton 5y ago
  > There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH. FYI, the US classes are as follows: (1) 20 MPH (32 km/h) max, pedal-assist; (2) 20 MPH max, throttle; (3) 28 MPH (45 km/h) max, pedal-assist.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I'm not in the US.
    - pcwalton 5y ago
      I know, I'm just clarifying for readers who are.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Ah ok! Maybe I should add that bit to the article to make sure that people have that context.
      - avgcorrection 5y ago
        Everyone is an American on the Internet (unless stated otherwise).
    - Steltek 5y ago
      I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and bike enforcement. Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not needing licensing/registration. As an analog cyclist, my experience is that e-bikers jump the lines at red lights, sometimes shoving you out of the way. With the bulk of my cargo bike, they sometimes instead jump around me on the sidewalk instead, which is kind of funny-terrifying to watch with their heavy bikes. On bike paths, e-bikes stand out for their high speed in crowds and you wonder if the "assist" from the motor is a binary on/off. If all bikes were given more room and more consideration from drivers, this may not even be a real problem as each type would be able to spread out. But the infrastructure is pretty poor and police enforcement against drivers is even worse. So all the "alt transportation" people need to cram together in whatever meager space was won at the last road reconstruction meeting. E-bikes look great for converting drivers to bikes so no one wants to talk about banning them. But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.
- glenjamin 5y ago
  Looking at those power numbers, I can't help but wonder how much you'd gain by doing this sort of modification on a bike that is more efficient and/or aerodynamic even without the motor attached. A touring bike frame with 700c wheels and a more stretched out position would likely allow you to travel at the same speed for lower total power output - and make your battery go further (or not require such a large battery).
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    There are velomobiles here, and also e-bike versions of those that go wicked fast. They also ride on the bike paths. I think they're quite dangerous because they are so low that you are riding below the height of a car hood (or a mirror for that matter). Here is a picture of one: http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg and a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc
    - gtirloni 5y ago
      I think it's insane this is allowed on the streets without a license or anything. I'm afraid of riding my regular bike if there's no bike lanes, let alone something like this in the middle of all the cars. Insane.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Agreed, they are very dangerous. But there very few of them (because people realize they are dangerous).
- tshaddox 5y ago
  But why does anyone actually care if you technically need to be pedaling in order for the electric motor to engage? Surely an electric bicycle could still go arbitrarily fast while arbitrarily requiring the pedals to turn. Isn't this whole thing just a silly loophole in what is considered a "bicycle"? What if instead, bicycle lanes just had rules regarding top speed, weight, form factor, etc.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  I object to the pejorative "cheat" as to suggest that non pedal assist is morally worse than pedalling. Edit to say nice job on the project, this is awesome. Here in Texas, I would love to see a lot of people using these in the bike lane.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Cheats as in 'breaking the law'.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. I really need to understand what's the difference with a throttle and a pedal assist whose curve is basically so that it gives all power at a ridiculously low pedaling rate...
ralusek 5y ago
> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles Why? Seems like a pointless distinction in regards to any sort of rules. Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example, should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a circular motion."
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  Read jacquesm's reply to my comment: there are people hacking their pedelec so that they accelerate without you pedaling and that's illegal. I think it's a good thing it's illegal. I do also believe only pedelec are allowed on bike lane in Belgium/Brussels. A bicycle which you can use without using the pedals is, to me, not the definition of a bicycle. > Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example, should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a circular motion." speed / weight and acceleration. But I'm still not sure about that. Bicycle lanes were made, at first, for people cycling. In European cities it's part of an overall move to be "greener": what's green about a vehicle with can be used without doing any exercise at all? You basically took the ICE engine of a motorbike and put instead an electric motor. KTM (motorbike company) is already in to e-bike game. These companies are going to come and game the system as much as they can if limits aren't set: they'll otherwise build ultra light full-carbon e-bike with crazy fast acceleration and the selling point is going to be "It's a motorbike you can use in a bicycle lane". I do honestly think saying: "if you don't need to pedal at all, it's not a bicycle and hence cannot use the bicycle lanes" (like they're apparently doing in the Netherlands) ain't a bad rule.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That and there are fixed maximum ratios between the pedal input and motor assist.
    - Closi 5y ago
      Why does it matter from a safety perspective if the locomotion is powered by a motor or a combination of a motor plus someone's legs? (Or if it doesn't matter from a safety perspective, what's the practical need to legislate against it?)
phreeza 5y ago
The pedaling aspect is also not really what matters, because you can in principle reduce the load factor so much that the pedals also just become a fancy throttle, no?
- lukevi 5y ago
  I've found this to be correct on most every e-bike I have rented. You can "feather pedal", just spinning the cranks without engaging any energy, and the e-bike will send power to "assist".
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I'll try that and see what my top speed is.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  No, there is a direct relationship between the power exerted and the power the motor will add. There is a nifty torque sensor built into the cranks.
  - phreeza 5y ago
    What I am saying you could hack the power to torque factor to be so high you don't really have to exert very much force at all.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent. The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike - assuming you would get away with it - is confiscation. I would strongly advise against such tricks. You can see how much work just changing out the battery was. There are plenty of parties selling limiter removers or speed boxes but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride.
jacquesm 5y ago
I come across modern Solexes with regularity on the bike lanes here, never seen one in traffic.
- TacticalCoder 5y ago
  And they're legal there? With the ICE engine running?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Yep. Speed limited to 26 kph.
0des 5y ago
The laws where I live do not see it this way. If it has pedals, and is under 750 watts, then it is an e-bike. This includes the ability to use a mid-drive motor that supplies 750 watts but makes full use of the bicycle's gearing system.
2dvisio 5y ago
This one is my first sight of a "bicycle with engine" ever (sorry article is in Italian). It was used in the movie "Bread love and dreams". https://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/2017/04/18/il-museo-del-sidecar-accoglie-la-bici-di-vittorio-de-sica/950133/ https://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/2017/04/18/il-museo-del-si...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's a beauty.
davidw 5y ago
> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less carbon usage and occupies less space.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mikestew 5y ago
  As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for the speed the difference would be negligible. The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle offer the basically same degree of control?
    - dylan604 5y ago
      In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle only control, obviously it is not even the same.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    In Belgium we have pedelecs (max 25kmh) and speed pedelecs (max 45kmh). Pedelecs are catagorized as bicycles, and speed pedelecs as scooters, which require a license plate and all other stuff, including their proper place on the road.
    - 5y ago
twic 5y ago
The reality is that there is no useful bright-line rule to distinguish between bicycles and motorbikes. Historically, the two have been very distinct, so we haven't needed one. Now, we are starting to see more of the space between the extremes be explored. We do absolutely need good laws and conventions here, for safety and fairness. But i don't think basing them on a classification is the way to write them.
- foxfluff 5y ago
  It used to be simple.. if it has a motor and pedals, it's a moped. But yeah, whatever you call it doesn't solve the regulation problem.
- KingMachiavelli 5y ago
  Right, but there's a large question at least in the US as to what & who the bike lanes and infrastructure are for. There are commuters who travel via bike, casual bikers, and then there are also extreme bicyclists that compete. There are bike lanes that are on normal streets and then there are bike paths that are often shared with pedestrians. I think there is a solid case that bike lanes adjacent to streets are for commuters. The main argument is that the entire argument for installing bike lanes was to provide an alternative to driving. The bike paths are a bit different. A lot of places in the US will have paths that ban anything with a 'motor'. In the past this just meant that motorcycles including small [sic] mopeds were banned as well. However, in recent years it isn't unusual for someone to use these paths wile riding a e-bike or e-scooter. IMO the main reason for banning motors was that those vehicles were loud and larger than a bike/scooter. I think that since it's practical to use a e-bike/e-scooter at the normal non-assisted speeds the proper solution is to just have speed limits in places to protect pedestrians and other bikers. A bike lane far from a city center could have the same speed limit as the road since the it's going to be mostly commuters using it. A bike lane closer to a university campus might have a speed of 15 or 20mph since those lanes will have a lot more traffic and a greater mixture of e-bikes and regular bikes. A bike path that connects the bike lane to the bike parking area would be like 15mph. A shared sidewalk/path with pedestrians might have a max speed of <10mph. I think the only group that might loose out is the pure-bicyclists that are used to using the bike lanes more like a gym so having to share the bike lanes with e-bikes could be an issue. But even then I think very few of them tend to ride during the peak commuter hours.
mtreis86 5y ago
I see it more as a matter of power produced, I'd probably use 1hp or 750w brushless or something thereabouts as the line to draw. With most pedal ebikes you go faster by pedaling anyways.
koonsolo 5y ago
As a motorcyclist, I would call them e-mopeds ;). I think that is the best name, since mopeds also have pedals that nobody uses.
pa7ch 5y ago
I never understood while we regulate on the mechanism to engage the motor instead of top speed or max power.
- Closi 5y ago
  Agreed, 70mph but you have to pedal to keep the bike going = e-bike (although an illegal one)... 15mph and has a throttle = electric motorbike (and also illegal)... But make that 15mph illegal electric motorbike 10mph faster and add extra hardware so users have to waggle their feet around in a circle to trigger the motors... SUDDENLY LEGAL! I highly doubt there are any safety benefits from pedalling - it seems like an arbitrary limit.
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > it seems like an arbitrary limit. Of course it is, all limits are arbitrary, even if informed. Lawmakers probably picked limits which would be reasonably achievable by average healthy humans over long distances.
    - Closi 5y ago
      > all limits are arbitrary I should have really said purposeless! Usually limits have a purpose - for instance limiting the speed of cars by law is because of accident reduction. Unless the argument is that pedalling makes it safer, it seems to be a limit for no particular reason.
- masklinn 5y ago
  Pedelecs are regulated on all three: maximum continuous power of 250W, assistance only from 6km/h, top assisted speed of 25km/h. The point of pedelec regulations (in europe anyway) is to be a baseline: anything which satisfies the pedelec specs must be treated as a bicycle by all member states, so if you have a pedelec you know that it will be usable as a bike throughput the union. Member states can go beyond if they want to.
Closi 5y ago
> I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. Eh, it depends if you see pedal assistance being the defining difference between a bike and a motorbike. From a safety perspective, speed may be a better differentiator.
- space_fountain 5y ago
  I think something like average real world speed and weight are the two important metrics. Maybe this is the intuition with petal assist vs throttle controlled e-bikes. I do sort of think it should take some work to get a bike up to it's top speed so that riders don't just cruise at that speed.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    A typical scooter will blow right by my bike, no matter how hard I work at it. Anything over 40 kph is very intense, 36 to 38 is doable over the longer term traffic permitting.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    > so that riders don't just cruise at that speed. Do you actually ride bikes on roads? This is there because if you're going slow on an actual road you're more likely to get killed because of a car hitting you. I'm honestly exhausted at this FUD when it's actively fucking with my life as a bike rider on a main road. Even Netherlands allows fully motorized vehicles that are small on their bike paths. Stop thinking of this as a "free pass" and more of "what's actually the safest for bikers and pedestrians.
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      In the US a lot of places don't have sidewalks or bike lanes and you're encouraged to cycle in the middle of a road lane so that you don't get killed when a driver hits you at full speed from the side. Also, you're legally entitled to a lane. In most other places that don't have dedicated bike lanes drive on the side of the road, same places scooters normally drive.
jimmaswell 5y ago
The most important thing should be the speed, not the method. A fit enough cyclist could easily go fast enough to be dangerous to other cyclists with a normal bike on cycle paths too.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Sure for a while. But a e-bike can do it all day. They can be a hazard for hours every day.
  - leetcrew 5y ago
    the ebikes I'm familiar with cannot travel at top speed all day. more like slightly more than an hour.
    - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
      OK, but there are endless numbers of e-bike idiots. Super-athletes doesn't scale like that.
      - leetcrew 5y ago
        fair point, can't argue with that.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. That sounds very American. Don’t we have Vespa scooters and mopeds in the USA as well? There are plenty of bike formats between bicycle and motorbikes. In China most e-bikes aren’t pedal assists and no one would ever claim they were car road worthy vehicles, they got bike lanes or the side of the road, and are not allowed on the ring road. American bike lanes seems to be recreational, whereas in other countries that are oriented much more at daily life and more heavily used.
- abakker 5y ago
  If its got a motor and it looks like a bike... An an American, I agree with your assessment. to me, Vespas and Mopeds are motorbikes. they burn gas. Pedal assist ebikes are a new category to me, and I don't think any of the current rules make much sense for that.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Pedal assists were the original e bikes back in the early 2000s. But the Chinese found that just making throttle only e bikes was more economical, so that’s what came to dominate the biking ways in China (for people there, biking is more about practicalities and economy than recreation). I’m sure most American heads would explode if they ever saw how moped, scooter, small motorbike traffic mixed with cars in Southeast Asia.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  I would not feel comfortable bicycling in Chinese "bike lanes", they are basically just separate lanes for the mopeds.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    In China, the rich drive while the poor make do with e-bikes. Yes, you wouldn't feel comfortable in those lanes, but people still need to live.
polote 5y ago
> Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. A free pass for what ? You dont need a motor to reach 40kph on a bike, plenty of people can do it with only their legs. What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. There is no reason a motorbike couldn't go on a bike lane if it goes slower than 20kh as most people on bike reach that speed. It is not because you are on a bike that you have to go on a bike lane.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Speed limit on bike lanes in the city is 30 kph, outside it is 45. So those rules already exist (here, in NL).
  - drited 5y ago
    What is the max speed of the bike you made jacquesm? I note from the start of the article that low speed of alternatives was one of your motivations. I saw the range stats in the last paragraph but didn't notice speed stats (perhaps I missed that?)
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      45 kph flat out, if you try to go faster you are fighting the motor. But practically you're going to top out at about 40 kph on the Bosch system, using a Stromer or a Klever s-pedelec you will be able to maintain that 45 kph a lot longer. But 38 is plenty for me, it's still a bike and the little bit of extra speed does not weigh up against the risks.
- gtirloni 5y ago
  > What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. No, we can't because of momentum. We could never allow a car or a heavy motorcycle to drive on pedestrian/bike lines even if they are at low speeds.
disambiguation 5y ago
Surely top speed matters more than pedaling? No one argues that people in electric wheel chairs are really driving ATV quads.
fragmede 5y ago
And scooters, electric-scooters, and sit-down electric scooters. And electric wheelchairs, and non-electric wheelchairs and mobility assist carts with handlebars. We also have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist who's top speed is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a $3000+ bike that can hit 40 mph in the right conditions. Those cyclists should be banned from using the same paths as the first kind of bicyclist, and should be relegated to the same areas as 'electric motorcycles'. Because it's really about acceleration and top speed, and it matters zero whether the thing has pedals or not. Or put it another way, if my 'electric motorcycle' is slower to accelerate and has a slower top speed than you could possibly manage on a bicycle, it's really not a 'motorcycle' in any way, no matter how many pedals it does or doesn't have.
- Torkel 5y ago
  Multi-lane bike ”highways” would be awesome. What matters most (imo) is that all these riders are unprotected, and should be kept far apart from cars. If the unprotected, single rider, narrow vehicles want do drive at vastly different speeds then multiple lanes seems like a good solution.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    We have some of these in NL.
  - rnotaro 5y ago
    In Montréal, Canada, we have the Réseau Express Vélo (REV). They are uni-directional bike paths that are 3 meters wide. They easily allow 3 cyclists to be side by side.
- TrevorJ 5y ago
  Eh, this is just extending the argument into absurdity I feel.
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    That's the point, I read the post as satire making fun of the top level comment. "Free pass" for electric motorbikes? What is that person on about? Why have meaningless distinctions between pedaling or not, when the overriding goal should be "promote bike use over vehicle use"? What societal good, what good to the citizen, is it to place burdens on e-bikes that are not pedal assist?
groone 5y ago
In my opinion the throttled e-bikes should be treated as bicycles as long as they have pedals and are under 25kg and 250W power. That would legalize my e-bike that I have used for 14000km in city saving a lot of carbon emissions and not sacrificing much as I can park it in bicycle stand. Of course going faster than 20-25km/h in pedestrian traffic (where bicycles are allowed) is extremely dangerous. But from my experience going fast in car traffic 35-40 km/h (where bicycles are allowed) is safer than chugging along slowly as cars don't have a need for overtaking between traffic lights.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Is that with or without the weight of the battery ;)
  - groone 5y ago
    With the battery. Normal bicycles can be as light as 8 kg when using carbon frame. Should be able to fit your battery in a 25kg bike if trying very hard.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Not this battery :) Anyway, agreed, 25 kg would be a nice upper limit to have. The bike I have weighs in at 29 kg with the original battery, now it is somewhere between 35 and 36.
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
Where I grew up a bike with a motor and pedals was a moped and was legal to drive without license if under 50cc. They’re still considered bikes.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Here too, but today you would need a license for those. Ditto with my bike, you can't ride it without a drivers license.
comeonseriously 5y ago
Moped?
Sn0wCoder 5y ago
Not sure where you are located but they already do have this. I have a class one pedal assist which cuts out at 20 mph. Allowed on most Mnt bike trails and to do 20 for any amount of distance requires substantial effort. I get passed on the paved bike trails all the time by road bikes with way more gears. Then class 2 which has a throttle and can go 30ish. Then class 3 with a throttle and speed is essentially whatever you can do. 2 and 3 are not allowed on any Mnt bike trails and depending on city, county, are crazy to ride on the paved bike trails, not legal, but do see every now and then. Most people that own them respect the rule.
qq4 5y ago
They're simply called mopeds in my book. We don't call electric cars, e-cars.
twoslide 5y ago
That's not the law in the UK. A throttle electric bike is still an electric bike, as long as it has pedals that can propel it: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
bambax 5y ago
> A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle Most pedal-assist-only ebikes can run without you pedaling (and without a throttle either). You just need to pedal fast at first, and then take your feet off the pedals. (You can rest them at the center of the frame for example.) Usually, if there is some friction in the system (but not too much) the pedals will keep on turning, making the bike think actual pedaling is going on. And then the system is self-sustaining (battery permitting, of course). It's quite funny to do; not very practical, or elegant, but fun.
tshaddox 5y ago
Why not just have reasonable rules for bike lanes, like a speed limit and perhaps size/weight limits? Cars with a top speed of 85mph and a 0-60 of 10 seconds are treated with precisely the same rules as cars with a top speed of 170mph and a 0-60 of 3 seconds. We don't really need separate terminology or separate lanes for them.
smashah 5y ago
Differentiating between pedal assist & throttled e-bike serves no great purpose. There should be no distinction, legally, between a normal bicycle and an electric bike of any kind (throttle or otherwise). Personal Electric (micro) Mobility is the answer to many problems, let's not add any roadblocks to adoption. Other than keeping powers-that-be comfortable and sparing the feelings of cycling puritans, the distinction is useless, bordering on harmful to the environment.
- krrrh 5y ago
  The recent explosion of high speed scooters has been a menace since my city recently allowed them and e-bikes on bike paths and the local bike rental places purchased whole fleets. The problem is that tourists and knaves are constantly riding them on paths that are marked pedestrian-only (sometimes due to unfamiliarity with the path system, though often intentionally). Even when they stick to the adjacent bike lanes the scooters accelerate and go so much faster than bikes they are constantly putting pedestrians and slower cyclists in danger. If they stuck to bike lanes on streets it wouldn’t be so bad, but I worry there will soon be a raft of Bernie Goetz style vigilante clotheslining of irresponsible riders.
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
I don't think there is a meaningful clear demarcation between pedal-assist and electric motorbike. The throttle control just looks different. On good e-bikes I've ridden, the pedaling is basically limited to telling the motor to go, no meaningful force involved. Sure, you can put "controls motor with button" and "controls motor with pedal" into different legal categories, but I doubt there is much of a benefit in doing so.

5faulker 5y ago

E-bike is basically the smaller version of electric cars, whose sustainability depends on how we power our energy (not that they have a circular manufacturing process of course).

jacquesm 5y ago

This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. A typical ride has me providing 40 to 60% of the Joules and the remainder comes out of the battery. If there is a very heavy wind up (not rare here) that might drop to 30/70 and if I have a tailwind it is the reverse. The bike has a nice stats display where it tracks all this stuff. Maximum assist is 350W (10A current out of a nominally 36V battery), at the wheel considerably less than that, this is only used when starting up from a complete stop. The rest of the time you're at a small fraction of that.

QuercusMax 5y ago
My wife just bought an ebike (from RadPower) that has both pedal assist and a throttle that doesn't require pedaling. You can also adjust the amount of pedal assist so you can "feather pedal". Who's going to confiscate this bike????
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- oppositelock 5y ago
  It depends where you are. Most EU countries forbid throttles, but they're ok in the US as long as your under 1000W motor output (Federal laws), but local laws can make this stricter. I've built several e-bikes, for fun, and like the author of this article, I've got a long range one, but only with about half of his battery capacity, which is enough for me.
- hendersoon 5y ago
  Depends on your country, really. Throttle ebikes are legal in the USA so long as they don't go faster than 20MPH on throttle alone. And really speed is what matters here. Who cares if it's pedal-assist or throttle so long as you aren't going markedly faster than normal people without any motor at all? There's no safety concern.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    At a certain point, you've added enough extra mass to the vehicle in terms of batteries, motor, beefed up brakes and frame, etc that you need to start asking questions about how much kinetic energy it's carrying and what happens to it all in case of a crash. Silly comparison, but we wouldn't let a car drive on the sidewalk even if it had a special module that limited it to 5km/h.
    - otabdeveloper4 5y ago
      Yeah, there's an argument to be made somewhere here about banning obese people from running. :P
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      The weight of the bike + rider is still well below what some riders weigh all by themselves. Compared to a scooter it's a featherweight, compared to a regular e-bike it's about a 5 Kg premium.
    - 5y ago
pcwalton 5y ago
> There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. Note that this varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In the US e-bikes with throttles are legally classified as Class 2 electric bicycles and are generally legal for use in bicycle infrastructure as long as they don't exceed 20 MPH. FYI, the US classes are as follows: (1) 20 MPH (32 km/h) max, pedal-assist; (2) 20 MPH max, throttle; (3) 28 MPH (45 km/h) max, pedal-assist.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I'm not in the US.
  - pcwalton 5y ago
    I know, I'm just clarifying for readers who are.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Ah ok! Maybe I should add that bit to the article to make sure that people have that context.
    - avgcorrection 5y ago
      Everyone is an American on the Internet (unless stated otherwise).
  - Steltek 5y ago
    I don't think you need to defend yourself so vigorously in this thread. But I would say that what you're seeing is distinctly the American experience with e-bikes and bike enforcement. Americans are generally clueless about e-bike laws. This includes police and e-bike owners. American e-bikes are marketed as having throttles, being to bypass traffic at high speeds using the bike lanes and bike paths, and not needing licensing/registration. As an analog cyclist, my experience is that e-bikers jump the lines at red lights, sometimes shoving you out of the way. With the bulk of my cargo bike, they sometimes instead jump around me on the sidewalk instead, which is kind of funny-terrifying to watch with their heavy bikes. On bike paths, e-bikes stand out for their high speed in crowds and you wonder if the "assist" from the motor is a binary on/off. If all bikes were given more room and more consideration from drivers, this may not even be a real problem as each type would be able to spread out. But the infrastructure is pretty poor and police enforcement against drivers is even worse. So all the "alt transportation" people need to cram together in whatever meager space was won at the last road reconstruction meeting. E-bikes look great for converting drivers to bikes so no one wants to talk about banning them. But they also end up keeping their car driver mentality of me-first and objectifying everything else on the road around them.
glenjamin 5y ago
Looking at those power numbers, I can't help but wonder how much you'd gain by doing this sort of modification on a bike that is more efficient and/or aerodynamic even without the motor attached. A touring bike frame with 700c wheels and a more stretched out position would likely allow you to travel at the same speed for lower total power output - and make your battery go further (or not require such a large battery).
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There are velomobiles here, and also e-bike versions of those that go wicked fast. They also ride on the bike paths. I think they're quite dangerous because they are so low that you are riding below the height of a car hood (or a mirror for that matter). Here is a picture of one: http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg http://dutchbikes.nl/artwork2/kv4/passing.jpg and a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAcy7EVRpXc
  - gtirloni 5y ago
    I think it's insane this is allowed on the streets without a license or anything. I'm afraid of riding my regular bike if there's no bike lanes, let alone something like this in the middle of all the cars. Insane.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Agreed, they are very dangerous. But there very few of them (because people realize they are dangerous).
tshaddox 5y ago
But why does anyone actually care if you technically need to be pedaling in order for the electric motor to engage? Surely an electric bicycle could still go arbitrarily fast while arbitrarily requiring the pedals to turn. Isn't this whole thing just a silly loophole in what is considered a "bicycle"? What if instead, bicycle lanes just had rules regarding top speed, weight, form factor, etc.
unethical_ban 5y ago
I object to the pejorative "cheat" as to suggest that non pedal assist is morally worse than pedalling. Edit to say nice job on the project, this is awesome. Here in Texas, I would love to see a lot of people using these in the bike lane.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Cheats as in 'breaking the law'.
908B64B197 5y ago
> This is a pedal assist e-bike. There are people that cheat and that install throttles so they can move without pedaling but that's a great way to get your vehicle confiscated. I really need to understand what's the difference with a throttle and a pedal assist whose curve is basically so that it gives all power at a ridiculously low pedaling rate...

ralusek 5y ago

> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles Why? Seems like a pointless distinction in regards to any sort of rules. Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example, should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a circular motion."

TacticalCoder 5y ago
Read jacquesm's reply to my comment: there are people hacking their pedelec so that they accelerate without you pedaling and that's illegal. I think it's a good thing it's illegal. I do also believe only pedelec are allowed on bike lane in Belgium/Brussels. A bicycle which you can use without using the pedals is, to me, not the definition of a bicycle. > Surely where they're allowed to operate, for example, should be based on things like speed and weight, rather than "whether or not the operator is moving their legs in a circular motion." speed / weight and acceleration. But I'm still not sure about that. Bicycle lanes were made, at first, for people cycling. In European cities it's part of an overall move to be "greener": what's green about a vehicle with can be used without doing any exercise at all? You basically took the ICE engine of a motorbike and put instead an electric motor. KTM (motorbike company) is already in to e-bike game. These companies are going to come and game the system as much as they can if limits aren't set: they'll otherwise build ultra light full-carbon e-bike with crazy fast acceleration and the selling point is going to be "It's a motorbike you can use in a bicycle lane". I do honestly think saying: "if you don't need to pedal at all, it's not a bicycle and hence cannot use the bicycle lanes" (like they're apparently doing in the Netherlands) ain't a bad rule.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That and there are fixed maximum ratios between the pedal input and motor assist.
  - Closi 5y ago
    Why does it matter from a safety perspective if the locomotion is powered by a motor or a combination of a motor plus someone's legs? (Or if it doesn't matter from a safety perspective, what's the practical need to legislate against it?)

phreeza 5y ago

The pedaling aspect is also not really what matters, because you can in principle reduce the load factor so much that the pedals also just become a fancy throttle, no?

lukevi 5y ago
I've found this to be correct on most every e-bike I have rented. You can "feather pedal", just spinning the cranks without engaging any energy, and the e-bike will send power to "assist".
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I'll try that and see what my top speed is.
jacquesm 5y ago
No, there is a direct relationship between the power exerted and the power the motor will add. There is a nifty torque sensor built into the cranks.
- phreeza 5y ago
  What I am saying you could hack the power to torque factor to be so high you don't really have to exert very much force at all.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    You can't. These bikes are DRM'd to the hilt and any attempt at hacking them will cause the bike to brick itself which you can only reset at the dealership. You can do that three times and then it's permanent. The penalties for having such a hack detected on your bike - assuming you would get away with it - is confiscation. I would strongly advise against such tricks. You can see how much work just changing out the battery was. There are plenty of parties selling limiter removers or speed boxes but they're all illegal and you are uninsured when using such a device. My bike is perfectly legal to ride.

jacquesm 5y ago

I come across modern Solexes with regularity on the bike lanes here, never seen one in traffic.

TacticalCoder 5y ago
And they're legal there? With the ICE engine running?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Yep. Speed limited to 26 kph.

0des 5y ago

The laws where I live do not see it this way. If it has pedals, and is under 750 watts, then it is an e-bike. This includes the ability to use a mid-drive motor that supplies 750 watts but makes full use of the bicycle's gearing system.

2dvisio 5y ago

This one is my first sight of a "bicycle with engine" ever (sorry article is in Italian). It was used in the movie "Bread love and dreams". https://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/2017/04/18/il-museo-del-sidecar-accoglie-la-bici-di-vittorio-de-sica/950133/ https://www.cronachemaceratesi.it/2017/04/18/il-museo-del-si...

jacquesm 5y ago
That's a beauty.

davidw 5y ago

> I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists, they're still a big win in terms of transportation: way less carbon usage and occupies less space.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mikestew 5y ago
As long as they'r not causing problems for other cyclists And if a frog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass when it hops. "Other cyclists"? They're not cyclists, they're motorcycle riders, for starters. Now any jackass can zoom down the bike path at 25-30mph, but yeah, as long as that doesn't cause problems...
- mdp2021 5y ago
  You are strongly suggesting it yourself, that if not for the speed the difference would be negligible. The other factor dividing the two realms in practice is control: in a bicycle the speed is directly a function of leg activity: does the "legs independent" motor-bicycle offer the basically same degree of control?
  - dylan604 5y ago
    In pedal assist mode, the motor stops when you stop pedaling. So it is the same concept. In full throttle only control, obviously it is not even the same.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  In Belgium we have pedelecs (max 25kmh) and speed pedelecs (max 45kmh). Pedelecs are catagorized as bicycles, and speed pedelecs as scooters, which require a license plate and all other stuff, including their proper place on the road.
  - 5y ago

twic 5y ago

The reality is that there is no useful bright-line rule to distinguish between bicycles and motorbikes. Historically, the two have been very distinct, so we haven't needed one. Now, we are starting to see more of the space between the extremes be explored. We do absolutely need good laws and conventions here, for safety and fairness. But i don't think basing them on a classification is the way to write them.

foxfluff 5y ago
It used to be simple.. if it has a motor and pedals, it's a moped. But yeah, whatever you call it doesn't solve the regulation problem.
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
Right, but there's a large question at least in the US as to what & who the bike lanes and infrastructure are for. There are commuters who travel via bike, casual bikers, and then there are also extreme bicyclists that compete. There are bike lanes that are on normal streets and then there are bike paths that are often shared with pedestrians. I think there is a solid case that bike lanes adjacent to streets are for commuters. The main argument is that the entire argument for installing bike lanes was to provide an alternative to driving. The bike paths are a bit different. A lot of places in the US will have paths that ban anything with a 'motor'. In the past this just meant that motorcycles including small [sic] mopeds were banned as well. However, in recent years it isn't unusual for someone to use these paths wile riding a e-bike or e-scooter. IMO the main reason for banning motors was that those vehicles were loud and larger than a bike/scooter. I think that since it's practical to use a e-bike/e-scooter at the normal non-assisted speeds the proper solution is to just have speed limits in places to protect pedestrians and other bikers. A bike lane far from a city center could have the same speed limit as the road since the it's going to be mostly commuters using it. A bike lane closer to a university campus might have a speed of 15 or 20mph since those lanes will have a lot more traffic and a greater mixture of e-bikes and regular bikes. A bike path that connects the bike lane to the bike parking area would be like 15mph. A shared sidewalk/path with pedestrians might have a max speed of <10mph. I think the only group that might loose out is the pure-bicyclists that are used to using the bike lanes more like a gym so having to share the bike lanes with e-bikes could be an issue. But even then I think very few of them tend to ride during the peak commuter hours.

mtreis86 5y ago

I see it more as a matter of power produced, I'd probably use 1hp or 750w brushless or something thereabouts as the line to draw. With most pedal ebikes you go faster by pedaling anyways.

koonsolo 5y ago

As a motorcyclist, I would call them e-mopeds ;). I think that is the best name, since mopeds also have pedals that nobody uses.

pa7ch 5y ago

I never understood while we regulate on the mechanism to engage the motor instead of top speed or max power.

Closi 5y ago
Agreed, 70mph but you have to pedal to keep the bike going = e-bike (although an illegal one)... 15mph and has a throttle = electric motorbike (and also illegal)... But make that 15mph illegal electric motorbike 10mph faster and add extra hardware so users have to waggle their feet around in a circle to trigger the motors... SUDDENLY LEGAL! I highly doubt there are any safety benefits from pedalling - it seems like an arbitrary limit.
- masklinn 5y ago
  > it seems like an arbitrary limit. Of course it is, all limits are arbitrary, even if informed. Lawmakers probably picked limits which would be reasonably achievable by average healthy humans over long distances.
  - Closi 5y ago
    > all limits are arbitrary I should have really said purposeless! Usually limits have a purpose - for instance limiting the speed of cars by law is because of accident reduction. Unless the argument is that pedalling makes it safer, it seems to be a limit for no particular reason.
masklinn 5y ago
Pedelecs are regulated on all three: maximum continuous power of 250W, assistance only from 6km/h, top assisted speed of 25km/h. The point of pedelec regulations (in europe anyway) is to be a baseline: anything which satisfies the pedelec specs must be treated as a bicycle by all member states, so if you have a pedelec you know that it will be usable as a bike throughput the union. Member states can go beyond if they want to.

Closi 5y ago

> I see the two as totally different things: I've tried pedal-assist e-bike and they're great. But... Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. Eh, it depends if you see pedal assistance being the defining difference between a bike and a motorbike. From a safety perspective, speed may be a better differentiator.

space_fountain 5y ago
I think something like average real world speed and weight are the two important metrics. Maybe this is the intuition with petal assist vs throttle controlled e-bikes. I do sort of think it should take some work to get a bike up to it's top speed so that riders don't just cruise at that speed.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  A typical scooter will blow right by my bike, no matter how hard I work at it. Anything over 40 kph is very intense, 36 to 38 is doable over the longer term traffic permitting.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  > so that riders don't just cruise at that speed. Do you actually ride bikes on roads? This is there because if you're going slow on an actual road you're more likely to get killed because of a car hitting you. I'm honestly exhausted at this FUD when it's actively fucking with my life as a bike rider on a main road. Even Netherlands allows fully motorized vehicles that are small on their bike paths. Stop thinking of this as a "free pass" and more of "what's actually the safest for bikers and pedestrians.
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    In the US a lot of places don't have sidewalks or bike lanes and you're encouraged to cycle in the middle of a road lane so that you don't get killed when a driver hits you at full speed from the side. Also, you're legally entitled to a lane. In most other places that don't have dedicated bike lanes drive on the side of the road, same places scooters normally drive.

jimmaswell 5y ago

The most important thing should be the speed, not the method. A fit enough cyclist could easily go fast enough to be dangerous to other cyclists with a normal bike on cycle paths too.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Sure for a while. But a e-bike can do it all day. They can be a hazard for hours every day.
- leetcrew 5y ago
  the ebikes I'm familiar with cannot travel at top speed all day. more like slightly more than an hour.
  - JoeAltmaier 5y ago
    OK, but there are endless numbers of e-bike idiots. Super-athletes doesn't scale like that.
    - leetcrew 5y ago
      fair point, can't argue with that.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle, no matter if you put pedal on it or not. That sounds very American. Don’t we have Vespa scooters and mopeds in the USA as well? There are plenty of bike formats between bicycle and motorbikes. In China most e-bikes aren’t pedal assists and no one would ever claim they were car road worthy vehicles, they got bike lanes or the side of the road, and are not allowed on the ring road. American bike lanes seems to be recreational, whereas in other countries that are oriented much more at daily life and more heavily used.

abakker 5y ago
If its got a motor and it looks like a bike... An an American, I agree with your assessment. to me, Vespas and Mopeds are motorbikes. they burn gas. Pedal assist ebikes are a new category to me, and I don't think any of the current rules make much sense for that.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Pedal assists were the original e bikes back in the early 2000s. But the Chinese found that just making throttle only e bikes was more economical, so that’s what came to dominate the biking ways in China (for people there, biking is more about practicalities and economy than recreation). I’m sure most American heads would explode if they ever saw how moped, scooter, small motorbike traffic mixed with cars in Southeast Asia.
whimsicalism 5y ago
I would not feel comfortable bicycling in Chinese "bike lanes", they are basically just separate lanes for the mopeds.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  In China, the rich drive while the poor make do with e-bikes. Yes, you wouldn't feel comfortable in those lanes, but people still need to live.

polote 5y ago

> Although I have nothing against motorbikes I'm not cool at all with basically motorbikes getting a free pass because they're disguised as bicycles. A free pass for what ? You dont need a motor to reach 40kph on a bike, plenty of people can do it with only their legs. What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. There is no reason a motorbike couldn't go on a bike lane if it goes slower than 20kh as most people on bike reach that speed. It is not because you are on a bike that you have to go on a bike lane.

jacquesm 5y ago
Speed limit on bike lanes in the city is 30 kph, outside it is 45. So those rules already exist (here, in NL).
- drited 5y ago
  What is the max speed of the bike you made jacquesm? I note from the start of the article that low speed of alternatives was one of your motivations. I saw the range stats in the last paragraph but didn't notice speed stats (perhaps I missed that?)
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    45 kph flat out, if you try to go faster you are fighting the motor. But practically you're going to top out at about 40 kph on the Bosch system, using a Stromer or a Klever s-pedelec you will be able to maintain that 45 kph a lot longer. But 38 is plenty for me, it's still a bike and the little bit of extra speed does not weigh up against the risks.
gtirloni 5y ago
> What we can do is limit the speed on bike lanes, but that means we could allow any vehicule on it. No, we can't because of momentum. We could never allow a car or a heavy motorcycle to drive on pedestrian/bike lines even if they are at low speeds.

disambiguation 5y ago

Surely top speed matters more than pedaling? No one argues that people in electric wheel chairs are really driving ATV quads.

fragmede 5y ago

And scooters, electric-scooters, and sit-down electric scooters. And electric wheelchairs, and non-electric wheelchairs and mobility assist carts with handlebars. We also have to delineate between a daydreaming cyclist who's top speed is slow, and a hard-core cyclist with a $3000+ bike that can hit 40 mph in the right conditions. Those cyclists should be banned from using the same paths as the first kind of bicyclist, and should be relegated to the same areas as 'electric motorcycles'. Because it's really about acceleration and top speed, and it matters zero whether the thing has pedals or not. Or put it another way, if my 'electric motorcycle' is slower to accelerate and has a slower top speed than you could possibly manage on a bicycle, it's really not a 'motorcycle' in any way, no matter how many pedals it does or doesn't have.

Torkel 5y ago
Multi-lane bike ”highways” would be awesome. What matters most (imo) is that all these riders are unprotected, and should be kept far apart from cars. If the unprotected, single rider, narrow vehicles want do drive at vastly different speeds then multiple lanes seems like a good solution.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  We have some of these in NL.
- rnotaro 5y ago
  In Montréal, Canada, we have the Réseau Express Vélo (REV). They are uni-directional bike paths that are 3 meters wide. They easily allow 3 cyclists to be side by side.
TrevorJ 5y ago
Eh, this is just extending the argument into absurdity I feel.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  That's the point, I read the post as satire making fun of the top level comment. "Free pass" for electric motorbikes? What is that person on about? Why have meaningless distinctions between pedaling or not, when the overriding goal should be "promote bike use over vehicle use"? What societal good, what good to the citizen, is it to place burdens on e-bikes that are not pedal assist?

groone 5y ago

In my opinion the throttled e-bikes should be treated as bicycles as long as they have pedals and are under 25kg and 250W power. That would legalize my e-bike that I have used for 14000km in city saving a lot of carbon emissions and not sacrificing much as I can park it in bicycle stand. Of course going faster than 20-25km/h in pedestrian traffic (where bicycles are allowed) is extremely dangerous. But from my experience going fast in car traffic 35-40 km/h (where bicycles are allowed) is safer than chugging along slowly as cars don't have a need for overtaking between traffic lights.

jacquesm 5y ago
Is that with or without the weight of the battery ;)
- groone 5y ago
  With the battery. Normal bicycles can be as light as 8 kg when using carbon frame. Should be able to fit your battery in a 25kg bike if trying very hard.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Not this battery :) Anyway, agreed, 25 kg would be a nice upper limit to have. The bike I have weighs in at 29 kg with the original battery, now it is somewhere between 35 and 36.

jbluepolarbear 5y ago

Where I grew up a bike with a motor and pedals was a moped and was legal to drive without license if under 50cc. They’re still considered bikes.

jacquesm 5y ago
Here too, but today you would need a license for those. Ditto with my bike, you can't ride it without a drivers license.

comeonseriously 5y ago

Moped?

Sn0wCoder 5y ago

Not sure where you are located but they already do have this. I have a class one pedal assist which cuts out at 20 mph. Allowed on most Mnt bike trails and to do 20 for any amount of distance requires substantial effort. I get passed on the paved bike trails all the time by road bikes with way more gears. Then class 2 which has a throttle and can go 30ish. Then class 3 with a throttle and speed is essentially whatever you can do. 2 and 3 are not allowed on any Mnt bike trails and depending on city, county, are crazy to ride on the paved bike trails, not legal, but do see every now and then. Most people that own them respect the rule.

qq4 5y ago

They're simply called mopeds in my book. We don't call electric cars, e-cars.

twoslide 5y ago

That's not the law in the UK. A throttle electric bike is still an electric bike, as long as it has pedals that can propel it: https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

bambax 5y ago

> A "bicycle" that can accelerate without the need to pedal at all is an electric motorcycle Most pedal-assist-only ebikes can run without you pedaling (and without a throttle either). You just need to pedal fast at first, and then take your feet off the pedals. (You can rest them at the center of the frame for example.) Usually, if there is some friction in the system (but not too much) the pedals will keep on turning, making the bike think actual pedaling is going on. And then the system is self-sustaining (battery permitting, of course). It's quite funny to do; not very practical, or elegant, but fun.

tshaddox 5y ago

Why not just have reasonable rules for bike lanes, like a speed limit and perhaps size/weight limits? Cars with a top speed of 85mph and a 0-60 of 10 seconds are treated with precisely the same rules as cars with a top speed of 170mph and a 0-60 of 3 seconds. We don't really need separate terminology or separate lanes for them.

smashah 5y ago

Differentiating between pedal assist & throttled e-bike serves no great purpose. There should be no distinction, legally, between a normal bicycle and an electric bike of any kind (throttle or otherwise). Personal Electric (micro) Mobility is the answer to many problems, let's not add any roadblocks to adoption. Other than keeping powers-that-be comfortable and sparing the feelings of cycling puritans, the distinction is useless, bordering on harmful to the environment.

krrrh 5y ago
The recent explosion of high speed scooters has been a menace since my city recently allowed them and e-bikes on bike paths and the local bike rental places purchased whole fleets. The problem is that tourists and knaves are constantly riding them on paths that are marked pedestrian-only (sometimes due to unfamiliarity with the path system, though often intentionally). Even when they stick to the adjacent bike lanes the scooters accelerate and go so much faster than bikes they are constantly putting pedestrians and slower cyclists in danger. If they stuck to bike lanes on streets it wouldn’t be so bad, but I worry there will soon be a raft of Bernie Goetz style vigilante clotheslining of irresponsible riders.

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

I don't think there is a meaningful clear demarcation between pedal-assist and electric motorbike. The throttle control just looks different. On good e-bikes I've ridden, the pedaling is basically limited to telling the motor to go, no meaningful force involved. Sure, you can put "controls motor with button" and "controls motor with pedal" into different legal categories, but I doubt there is much of a benefit in doing so.