22 ms·

Portugal bans bosses texting staff after-hours

387 points by buro9 5y ago

andresp 5y ago
They should have have started by reducing taxes. Portugal has some of the highest tax rates. One of the main reasons why people (especially in highly valued sectors) continue to leave the country.
gherkinnn 5y ago
What about a team’s WhatsApp group? (every co-located team has one) What does a boss do when asking the rest of team where they went off for drinks? It isn’t obvious from the linked article.
- bonestamp2 5y ago
  It sounds like they may face fines for this. So, if they're just asking which pub to meet at, I don't think they'd receive a fine for that.
wonderwonder 5y ago
"Parents will be allowed to work at home indefinitely without seeking prior approval from their employers until their child turns eight." There have to be some sort of limits on this left out of the article. I cant think a cashier can elect to work from home if they have a 4 year old.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Reasobaly assume that this applies to jobs that can be done remotely, you cant have a remote working plumber
mjamil 5y ago
I DM my staff on slack “after hours” [1] all the time, and set the expectation that they should respond when appropriate at their discretion. That could (and often does) mean the next business day or even later. Or it could mean ASAP; they’re adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call. [1] Obviously, this policy is not targeted at staff in different time zones, which makes their remedy meaningless.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- crossroadsguy 5y ago
  > Or it could mean ASAP Why? This basically means they must “read” the message ASAP to decide whether to reply ASAP or not. That OUGHT NOT TO BE the expectation ever! Let alone the expectation of an immediate answer, the root problem is expectation of that message “being read right then” or soon.
- McDyver 5y ago
  As someone mention in another comment, sending an email would be more adequate. The reason being that even if people are "adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call", there is always a looming implied pressure in sending an instant message. Not everyone will have the mental fortitude to just leave things for later, when the boss sends a message.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  [Sentence removed due to misinterpreting comment I replied to]. It's important to consider the managers and poor leaders out there who might not be as upstanding as yourself with regards to expectations, necessitating legislation or regulation. Citizens are entitled to their uncompensated time off hours not being interrupted. It's likely the end result of this is using communications tool features to queue or hold messages until a worker's work day starts. I believe Slack, Teams, and Office 365 already support "quiet hours" at org level. Tangentially, when thinking about labor regulation, I think it's important to frame the conversations as "what monsters lurk in the private sector? [1] [2]" vs "I am a great boss, why would this be necessary?" [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    I have an 11 month old child. My work hours are all over the place. A law telling me I can't catch up on Slack when I'm up at midnight for unrelated reasons just makes my life worse. Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it.
zz865 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29149785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29149785
siruncledrew 5y ago
It’s nice to set an expectation for work life balance. How does this situation work for “flexible hours” though? Or it this kind of expecting something like you only work 9-5pm and can’t be contacted outside those times.
- klarstrup 5y ago
  it says "out of working hours", even if your hours are flexible they're still working hours I would say
mgarfias 5y ago
Omg it’s my dream
polaris_mars 5y ago
In Portugal is the state that micro manages you and your company.
- Normal_gaussian 5y ago
  Yes, the pesky state sets minimum breaks, maximum weekly hours, minimum wage, anti-discrimination law, anti-bullying law, minimum age to work, minimum safety requirements. It would be a much better world if our neighbours 9 year old was sent down to the local pencil factory every night for six hours and ay weekends to pick up the pencils that ocassionally fly out of the machine into those hard to reach areas between the conveyor belts and sharpening machines. He could make a few dollars a day and pay for his own food and clothes!
  - polaris_mars 5y ago
    Yes. Once your country catches with the rest of developed world then yes you can have slack to have nice things such as all those minimum standards you mentioned. But with this Portugal will remain a back water coutry forever. I have friends that were telling me 10 years ago that Portugal will be the California of Europe. Nice weather welcoming culture, education going up. Who would not want to set up office there?? Nop, I told them. Portugal is the Mexico of Europe. You get taxed to death and anyone without connections but with ability just emigrantes. Why don't you go to Bangladesh and ask them to set minimum wage laws and maximum working hours? It would help Portugal more than this law, but not so sure about Bangladesh... I'm Portuguese btw and know very well what I'm talking about. Just crossing the border to Spain makes big difference in a young guy's prospects in life.
    - csee 5y ago
      I am generally against worker protection for things that are voluntarily agreed on. The problem is that bosses can sneakily introduce things that weren't agreed on, and this is usually bad for the worker because the worker has less power in the relationship, there are frictions to switching jobs, they have leverage over your reputation, and resolving the dispute via government or the courts is impractical and expensive. This can be thought of as a type of mild fraud, where two parties came to a contractual agreement that one party then violated (or perhaps it's a grey area that wasn't explicitly covered contractually). This is why everyone should be in favor of some basic level of worker protection. Even if you're a hard libertarian - as they are purportedly against fraud, too.
one_off_comment 5y ago
Not quite "bans". They could face fines, which means it's legal for a price.
kaycebasques 5y ago
Can we open up a broader discussion about Portugal's culture of work? On one hand this sends a message that Portugal cares about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other my general impression of Portugal's economy is that it's one of the weaker members of the EU. High debt, not a huge driver of innovation, wealth, etc. These are all just loosely held beliefs kicking around in my head. I'm not attached to any of them or sure that they are even accurate.
- rhizome 5y ago
  Lotta weasel words in there, maybe describe how you acquired these loosely held "beliefs?" Someone's gotta be last, but is it actually bad there, or is the problem academic and significant only because someone (you, in this case) describes it as such? I'm getting a distinct "yo dawg, I herd..." vibe.
- pokstad 5y ago
  I spent years making careful decisions and investments in my career so that I could work a flexible and remote job. I’ve worked in places where most of the workers are incapable of competently working asynchronously and being results driven. Laws like this seem to ridiculous and ignoring the reality of work.
- BaRRaKID 5y ago
  You're partially right. Portugal is in the middle of a work culture change. For the last maybe 5 or so years, many tech companies have opened offices here, and with that they brought a better work/life balance, better salaries, better everything, for people working in those companies. On the other hand a typical "old school" Portuguese boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. All this for a minimum wage of 665€. Regarding the Portuguese economy, we are somewhere in the middle of Europe. We have many industries where we are probably the best in the world, but they are smaller less flashy industries. Namely things like wine, cork, shoes, ceramics (as in toilets), glass, etc. But we have many financial issues, manly due to huge amount of corruption in government and financial institutions. If you're interested in those search for Operation Marquis and Face Oculta scandal. Regarding this law in particular, it was made so that people that are working from home due to COVID can log off an not have people calling for extra work after hours. It has been a real issue. For me personally I've been working average 10 hours a day the last two years.
rbobby 5y ago
There should be an SMS option on phones that does an automatic reply "Your message to rbobby could not be delivered because rbobby is not working right now. If you'd like your message delivered anyway a charge of $9.95 will apply. Reply to send your message and be charged $9.95"
- ivanmontillam 5y ago
  It doesn't need to be an option. You could make an application that replaces your native SMS app, and build such a "gateway". The only problem I see, is that your boss is likely to use WhatsApp or else to find you, where such rules can't be enforced. I could make an specific app go offline thanks to the NetGuard app (I'm not affiliated with it), it partially solves that problem. It must be manually turned on or off.
  - belval 5y ago
    Reading comment like yours always put into perspective how lucky I've been in my career so far to never get a manager who would try to find me on WhatsApp to ask work questions. It seems like such an overreach and might explain why such a law was needed in the first place.
    - ivanmontillam 5y ago
      For the company where I used to work, some Leaders and Senior Leaders even have WhatsApp Groups with their ICs. I personally think that's too much overreach as well. These groups tend to rot into culture echo chambers where you feel peer pressured to participate in a forced cheery way.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cactus2093 5y ago
  This sounds like a really wild solution without a problem. The employee can just turn off their phone today, or put it on do not disturb, or simply ignore the texts when not working. The boss could say "you need to reply to these texts or you will be fired", just like they could say "You need to take me off your $9.95 delivery list or you will be fired". Also, is the point here that the employee will be happy to work outside of working hours if they are paid $9.95? If they get overtime they should be paid it based on the hourly overtime rate & policies for their role, not some strange one-time fee that their cellular provider collects for them.
mlboss 5y ago
Does it involves pages also ? What about pages for docters/emergency workers ?
crossroadsguy 5y ago
And I live in a country where government recently legalised 12 hour shifts. And EU and American companies open their offices here expecting “full cooperation” from these offshore employees while not at all from their local employees.
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  How do you have time talking here ? Obviously we haven't made it clear enough that when you re on your shift you should focus on work, and when not, sleep.
- caymanjim 5y ago
  It's not at all unusual to work 12-hour shifts at a US company. It's less common among white-collar professionals, although many in finance, law, and medicine regularly work those kinds of hours. It's far more common in blue-collar work--anything from retail to trucking to food service to agriculture. I'm not saying working 12 hour shifts is good or healthy (although in some cases it's also not too bad, especially if it means more flexibility for the employee, or if they want the extra pay). Just pointing out that plenty of US companies do in fact expect 12 hour shifts from their local employees.
anm89 5y ago
I still don't understand how you guarantee people the right to work remotely for -doctors -nurses -trades -technicians -factory -warehouse -restaurant -retail -Hospitality -janitorial It seems that more than half of all jobs cannot be done remote under any circumstance so how are you going to make that a government guaranteed right?
- anm89 5y ago
  Downvotes but nobody actually explaining it.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  You're getting downvoted because you're being deliberately obtuse. No government is trying to guarantee the right for janitors or nurses to work remotely - only those jobs for which it's feasible.
  - anm89 5y ago
    I'm not being obtuse. What is the point of a right that applies to 1/3 of the population. That is by definition not a right. It's a privilege for a class of people, in this case the people who are already the most privileged people in society. And a big proportion of those people are already going to have that ability forever at this point. So this is a legal guarantee of a privilege for some people but mostly just those who don't need it. The people being obtuse are the people arguing for this like it's some kind of grass roots labor issue and they are freedom fighters.
    - AussieWog93 5y ago
      >What is the point of a right that applies to 1/3 of the population. Tell that to the abortion rights campaigners. Or the father's rights activists. Or the people who advocate for the rights of gay/trans people, indigenous peoples and immigrants. There are so many rights out there that only apply to a small subset of the population. It doesn't mean they're invalid.
ineptech 5y ago
The article uses "text" and "call" and "contact" as if they're indistinguishable - what actually got banned here? There's a huge difference between discussing a task for someone in a team channel and @-ing them and emailing them and SMSing them.
- ineptech 5y ago
  I tried to answer my own question, but can't find any specifics. CNN says "phone, message or email", AP says "contact", thehill says "email". None of them have a link to more details or the text of the law (which ought to be the bare fucking minimum in a news article about a law, but this is the internet now I guess).
  - BaRRaKID 5y ago
    It's probably just an issue with trying to translate the original source. But the law uses the term "contact", so AP is correct.
    - ineptech 5y ago
      Thank you, I guess I just naively assumed the law would be more specific or would define the term more narrowly; but I suppose the courts will do that.
- BaRRaKID 5y ago
  Mandatory "Portuguese here". All forms of communication are banned. Unless it's an emergency, and this is where it gets a bit grey because they haven't defined what exactly is an emergency, so things will probably stay the same in most cases.
  - ineptech 5y ago
    Thanks! That sure sounds overbroad - would it include, say, "Can y'all take a look at the XYZ server tomorrow" being posted in a team's slack channel? Also, is it just limited to the supervisor, or is it any work-related messages?
hugoromano 5y ago
(Portuguese here) Portuguese Parliament and Government publish law every day and afterhours[1], as a citizen I have to keep up with this. MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. A common behaviour is when a "crime" case is well covered by the media, the first thing is said "we need to change the Law", trying to dodge blame. I have been working remote for 17 years, and the teams I worked in, work asynchronously. It is fine to text, slack, discord and email after hours, people don't expect to get answers immediately, they will reply according to their schedule or contract. One case is that employers have to compensate employees for electricity and utilities for working remote, in my case that is a cost of €10.58, I save much more for not commuting, financially and psychologically. [1] https://dre.pt/dre/home https://dre.pt/dre/home
- CoffeeOnWrite 5y ago
  > I have been working remote for 17 years This suggests you are likely a member of the professional class. A lot of labor regulation in the US (my country) is intended to protect the working class, not the professional class. Perhaps that was the intention of your politicians? (This legislation does sound like treating a symptom, and not unlikely to have unintended detrimental consequences. But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves)
  - dymk 5y ago
    That the law might work in one case doesn't justify it as a good law - the law should consider at least some of the edge cases, especially if it's going to negatively impact such a large class of workers as the "professional class". It's also unclear that there's no scenario in which the non "professional class" would benefit from being able to be texted by their boss.
    - gkop 5y ago
      Where in my comment are you getting that I think it’s a good law? Bluntly, with my very limited context (no, I didn’t read the article), it sounds like a dumb law. I take to heart original commenter’s complaint that their country’s politicians produce a large volume of dumb laws, I hope disgust with the median politician is something we can all agree on.
evancoop 5y ago
The best counterargument here is that currently, the market adjudicates this already. Roles demanding after-hours access typically yield higher compensation than similar roles that do not. The market essentially offers an employee the opportunity to offer an employer greater availability in exchange for pay. If the employer demands that access without the corresponding compensation, the employee is likely to depart. This law posits a market failure. Does one exist?
- pc86 5y ago
  I agree with you 90% of the way, and it would be 100% if not for the fact that there are plenty of jobs which only exist with constant contact from your boss. There may be folks willing to do those jobs for lower compensation, but they don't have the opportunity. Also, I take issue generally with the idea that in order to only work reasonable hours without being bothered by your boss you need to get paid less for the work you already do.
- confidantlake 5y ago
  You could make that same argument for health and safety regulations. Why have them? The market will compensate the least safe places higher. But still I would rather know my workplace has some sort of minimum safety standard rather than try to guess and find the one least likely to get me injured/killed. There are at least 2 market failures I see. One is perfect information. The average worker will not know enough about how after hours access request system is implemented before starting. The other is perfect competition. In an ideal market there would be more competition that would give the worker enough choice to work without this after hours request demand. But in the real world the employee often does not have this choice.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Alas, Portugal, we hardly knew ye. No sane business will grow in a country with insane lawmakers.
- throwaway984393 5y ago
  People downvote this comment, but my company wouldn't open an office in Portugal after this if there are other options.
  - pezezin 5y ago
    Which company is that? Just to know where not to apply.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Expecting workers to answer immediately when messaging them after hours is crazy. But supporting dumb idea to make such messaging illegal is even more crazy. For fairness, post a link to your linkedin, just to know whom not to hire.
      - pezezin 5y ago
        I don't have a LinkedIn account, so I can't post it. But given your response, you are not someone I want to work for or with. Not that I need it either, I'm not looking for a new job...
        Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        You should do it but for me, but for every recruiter in the world! Funny how you are reluctant to disclose your identity after having such bold views on which empoyees not too work with.
        pezezin 5y ago
        Do you want to dox me because I have the "audacity" to demand workers' rights? Not wanting to get contacted after-hours is a "bold view"? Are you fucking serious?
syntaxstic 5y ago
This didn't get passed into legislation.
silexia 5y ago
What happens if there is a true emergency at work? Do employers just have to pay a bunch of fines every time this happens? What will the politicians do when lots of businesses that could have done business in Portugal instead go to another country that is more reasonable in their laws? If the politicians removed regulations and made Portugal much more attractive place for business, I think that would better accomplish their goal of improving workers lives. Businesses would be competing aggressively for Portuguese employees.
kelseyfrog 5y ago
I banned my boss from texting after hours. He texted me during hours for a legitimate reason. Moments after the issue was taken care of, I blocked his number. If it ever becomes an issue, it's easy to frame as a healthy way of enforcing boundaries. Everyone should block their boss by default.
- ayush--s 5y ago
  is this sarcasm?
- noduerme 5y ago
  Sounds like you established a good, respectful relationship with boundaries with your boss. Everyone should do this (without passing a law, obviously).
pugets 5y ago
>And companies may also have to contribute to higher household bills from being home-based, such as energy and internet costs. Isn't this what we should not be doing? If government wants people to start working from home, then don't create disincentives for companies to make the switch. Temporarily, at least, absorb the cost.
ekianjo 5y ago
Erm... Why do you need a law when you simply have to say no to your boss as an employee? "Sorry, I am following my contract, I'm not supposed to work after hours". If you can't even have this kind of discussion with your boss, grow some balls or change companies.
- slater 5y ago
  Erm... Because bosses might use that as leverage/reasoning and instead hire people who WILL answer after hours?
  - nlitened 5y ago
    What stops them from doing the same without stating the reasoning?
    - aflag 5y ago
      They want to get ahead by pleasing the boss and doing everything they ask, they have no life outside work, they desperately need that job, they just aren’t good at saying no, etc.
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    If your only advantage is that you will work after hours, then you might have a skills problem on the job market.
- foepys 5y ago
  When one is over 50 and has a family to support, growing some balls and quitting jobs could end up with one defaulting on the mortgage. It's easy to say this when you don't have any obligations and are young. But later in life this gets much, much harder.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    When one is over 50, one should have grown some balls awhile back, no? In any event, it's never too late. If you're still employed, that implies they need you.
LatteLazy 5y ago
I don't object to texts or email out of hours. I can pick them up or not as suits me. And I'd rather know what I'm headed into than get in and find chaos.

387 points by buro9 5y ago

They should have have started by reducing taxes. Portugal has some of the highest tax rates. One of the main reasons why people (especially in highly valued sectors) continue to leave the country.

gherkinnn 5y ago

What about a team’s WhatsApp group? (every co-located team has one) What does a boss do when asking the rest of team where they went off for drinks? It isn’t obvious from the linked article.

bonestamp2 5y ago
It sounds like they may face fines for this. So, if they're just asking which pub to meet at, I don't think they'd receive a fine for that.

wonderwonder 5y ago

"Parents will be allowed to work at home indefinitely without seeking prior approval from their employers until their child turns eight." There have to be some sort of limits on this left out of the article. I cant think a cashier can elect to work from home if they have a 4 year old.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
Reasobaly assume that this applies to jobs that can be done remotely, you cant have a remote working plumber

mjamil 5y ago

I DM my staff on slack “after hours” [1] all the time, and set the expectation that they should respond when appropriate at their discretion. That could (and often does) mean the next business day or even later. Or it could mean ASAP; they’re adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call. [1] Obviously, this policy is not targeted at staff in different time zones, which makes their remedy meaningless.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
crossroadsguy 5y ago
> Or it could mean ASAP Why? This basically means they must “read” the message ASAP to decide whether to reply ASAP or not. That OUGHT NOT TO BE the expectation ever! Let alone the expectation of an immediate answer, the root problem is expectation of that message “being read right then” or soon.
McDyver 5y ago
As someone mention in another comment, sending an email would be more adequate. The reason being that even if people are "adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call", there is always a looming implied pressure in sending an instant message. Not everyone will have the mental fortitude to just leave things for later, when the boss sends a message.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
[Sentence removed due to misinterpreting comment I replied to]. It's important to consider the managers and poor leaders out there who might not be as upstanding as yourself with regards to expectations, necessitating legislation or regulation. Citizens are entitled to their uncompensated time off hours not being interrupted. It's likely the end result of this is using communications tool features to queue or hold messages until a worker's work day starts. I believe Slack, Teams, and Office 365 already support "quiet hours" at org level. Tangentially, when thinking about labor regulation, I think it's important to frame the conversations as "what monsters lurk in the private sector? [1] [2]" vs "I am a great boss, why would this be necessary?" [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  I have an 11 month old child. My work hours are all over the place. A law telling me I can't catch up on Slack when I'm up at midnight for unrelated reasons just makes my life worse. Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it.

zz865 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29149785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29149785

siruncledrew 5y ago

It’s nice to set an expectation for work life balance. How does this situation work for “flexible hours” though? Or it this kind of expecting something like you only work 9-5pm and can’t be contacted outside those times.

klarstrup 5y ago
it says "out of working hours", even if your hours are flexible they're still working hours I would say

mgarfias 5y ago

Omg it’s my dream

polaris_mars 5y ago

In Portugal is the state that micro manages you and your company.

Normal_gaussian 5y ago
Yes, the pesky state sets minimum breaks, maximum weekly hours, minimum wage, anti-discrimination law, anti-bullying law, minimum age to work, minimum safety requirements. It would be a much better world if our neighbours 9 year old was sent down to the local pencil factory every night for six hours and ay weekends to pick up the pencils that ocassionally fly out of the machine into those hard to reach areas between the conveyor belts and sharpening machines. He could make a few dollars a day and pay for his own food and clothes!
- polaris_mars 5y ago
  Yes. Once your country catches with the rest of developed world then yes you can have slack to have nice things such as all those minimum standards you mentioned. But with this Portugal will remain a back water coutry forever. I have friends that were telling me 10 years ago that Portugal will be the California of Europe. Nice weather welcoming culture, education going up. Who would not want to set up office there?? Nop, I told them. Portugal is the Mexico of Europe. You get taxed to death and anyone without connections but with ability just emigrantes. Why don't you go to Bangladesh and ask them to set minimum wage laws and maximum working hours? It would help Portugal more than this law, but not so sure about Bangladesh... I'm Portuguese btw and know very well what I'm talking about. Just crossing the border to Spain makes big difference in a young guy's prospects in life.
  - csee 5y ago
    I am generally against worker protection for things that are voluntarily agreed on. The problem is that bosses can sneakily introduce things that weren't agreed on, and this is usually bad for the worker because the worker has less power in the relationship, there are frictions to switching jobs, they have leverage over your reputation, and resolving the dispute via government or the courts is impractical and expensive. This can be thought of as a type of mild fraud, where two parties came to a contractual agreement that one party then violated (or perhaps it's a grey area that wasn't explicitly covered contractually). This is why everyone should be in favor of some basic level of worker protection. Even if you're a hard libertarian - as they are purportedly against fraud, too.

one_off_comment 5y ago

Not quite "bans". They could face fines, which means it's legal for a price.

kaycebasques 5y ago

Can we open up a broader discussion about Portugal's culture of work? On one hand this sends a message that Portugal cares about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other my general impression of Portugal's economy is that it's one of the weaker members of the EU. High debt, not a huge driver of innovation, wealth, etc. These are all just loosely held beliefs kicking around in my head. I'm not attached to any of them or sure that they are even accurate.

rhizome 5y ago
Lotta weasel words in there, maybe describe how you acquired these loosely held "beliefs?" Someone's gotta be last, but is it actually bad there, or is the problem academic and significant only because someone (you, in this case) describes it as such? I'm getting a distinct "yo dawg, I herd..." vibe.
pokstad 5y ago
I spent years making careful decisions and investments in my career so that I could work a flexible and remote job. I’ve worked in places where most of the workers are incapable of competently working asynchronously and being results driven. Laws like this seem to ridiculous and ignoring the reality of work.
BaRRaKID 5y ago
You're partially right. Portugal is in the middle of a work culture change. For the last maybe 5 or so years, many tech companies have opened offices here, and with that they brought a better work/life balance, better salaries, better everything, for people working in those companies. On the other hand a typical "old school" Portuguese boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. All this for a minimum wage of 665€. Regarding the Portuguese economy, we are somewhere in the middle of Europe. We have many industries where we are probably the best in the world, but they are smaller less flashy industries. Namely things like wine, cork, shoes, ceramics (as in toilets), glass, etc. But we have many financial issues, manly due to huge amount of corruption in government and financial institutions. If you're interested in those search for Operation Marquis and Face Oculta scandal. Regarding this law in particular, it was made so that people that are working from home due to COVID can log off an not have people calling for extra work after hours. It has been a real issue. For me personally I've been working average 10 hours a day the last two years.

rbobby 5y ago

There should be an SMS option on phones that does an automatic reply "Your message to rbobby could not be delivered because rbobby is not working right now. If you'd like your message delivered anyway a charge of $9.95 will apply. Reply to send your message and be charged $9.95"

ivanmontillam 5y ago
It doesn't need to be an option. You could make an application that replaces your native SMS app, and build such a "gateway". The only problem I see, is that your boss is likely to use WhatsApp or else to find you, where such rules can't be enforced. I could make an specific app go offline thanks to the NetGuard app (I'm not affiliated with it), it partially solves that problem. It must be manually turned on or off.
- belval 5y ago
  Reading comment like yours always put into perspective how lucky I've been in my career so far to never get a manager who would try to find me on WhatsApp to ask work questions. It seems like such an overreach and might explain why such a law was needed in the first place.
  - ivanmontillam 5y ago
    For the company where I used to work, some Leaders and Senior Leaders even have WhatsApp Groups with their ICs. I personally think that's too much overreach as well. These groups tend to rot into culture echo chambers where you feel peer pressured to participate in a forced cheery way.
deleted 5y ago
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cactus2093 5y ago
This sounds like a really wild solution without a problem. The employee can just turn off their phone today, or put it on do not disturb, or simply ignore the texts when not working. The boss could say "you need to reply to these texts or you will be fired", just like they could say "You need to take me off your $9.95 delivery list or you will be fired". Also, is the point here that the employee will be happy to work outside of working hours if they are paid $9.95? If they get overtime they should be paid it based on the hourly overtime rate & policies for their role, not some strange one-time fee that their cellular provider collects for them.

mlboss 5y ago

Does it involves pages also ? What about pages for docters/emergency workers ?

crossroadsguy 5y ago

And I live in a country where government recently legalised 12 hour shifts. And EU and American companies open their offices here expecting “full cooperation” from these offshore employees while not at all from their local employees.

secondaryacct 5y ago
How do you have time talking here ? Obviously we haven't made it clear enough that when you re on your shift you should focus on work, and when not, sleep.
caymanjim 5y ago
It's not at all unusual to work 12-hour shifts at a US company. It's less common among white-collar professionals, although many in finance, law, and medicine regularly work those kinds of hours. It's far more common in blue-collar work--anything from retail to trucking to food service to agriculture. I'm not saying working 12 hour shifts is good or healthy (although in some cases it's also not too bad, especially if it means more flexibility for the employee, or if they want the extra pay). Just pointing out that plenty of US companies do in fact expect 12 hour shifts from their local employees.

anm89 5y ago

I still don't understand how you guarantee people the right to work remotely for -doctors -nurses -trades -technicians -factory -warehouse -restaurant -retail -Hospitality -janitorial It seems that more than half of all jobs cannot be done remote under any circumstance so how are you going to make that a government guaranteed right?

anm89 5y ago
Downvotes but nobody actually explaining it.
AussieWog93 5y ago
You're getting downvoted because you're being deliberately obtuse. No government is trying to guarantee the right for janitors or nurses to work remotely - only those jobs for which it's feasible.
- anm89 5y ago
  I'm not being obtuse. What is the point of a right that applies to 1/3 of the population. That is by definition not a right. It's a privilege for a class of people, in this case the people who are already the most privileged people in society. And a big proportion of those people are already going to have that ability forever at this point. So this is a legal guarantee of a privilege for some people but mostly just those who don't need it. The people being obtuse are the people arguing for this like it's some kind of grass roots labor issue and they are freedom fighters.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    >What is the point of a right that applies to 1/3 of the population. Tell that to the abortion rights campaigners. Or the father's rights activists. Or the people who advocate for the rights of gay/trans people, indigenous peoples and immigrants. There are so many rights out there that only apply to a small subset of the population. It doesn't mean they're invalid.

ineptech 5y ago

The article uses "text" and "call" and "contact" as if they're indistinguishable - what actually got banned here? There's a huge difference between discussing a task for someone in a team channel and @-ing them and emailing them and SMSing them.

ineptech 5y ago
I tried to answer my own question, but can't find any specifics. CNN says "phone, message or email", AP says "contact", thehill says "email". None of them have a link to more details or the text of the law (which ought to be the bare fucking minimum in a news article about a law, but this is the internet now I guess).
- BaRRaKID 5y ago
  It's probably just an issue with trying to translate the original source. But the law uses the term "contact", so AP is correct.
  - ineptech 5y ago
    Thank you, I guess I just naively assumed the law would be more specific or would define the term more narrowly; but I suppose the courts will do that.
BaRRaKID 5y ago
Mandatory "Portuguese here". All forms of communication are banned. Unless it's an emergency, and this is where it gets a bit grey because they haven't defined what exactly is an emergency, so things will probably stay the same in most cases.
- ineptech 5y ago
  Thanks! That sure sounds overbroad - would it include, say, "Can y'all take a look at the XYZ server tomorrow" being posted in a team's slack channel? Also, is it just limited to the supervisor, or is it any work-related messages?

hugoromano 5y ago

(Portuguese here) Portuguese Parliament and Government publish law every day and afterhours[1], as a citizen I have to keep up with this. MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. A common behaviour is when a "crime" case is well covered by the media, the first thing is said "we need to change the Law", trying to dodge blame. I have been working remote for 17 years, and the teams I worked in, work asynchronously. It is fine to text, slack, discord and email after hours, people don't expect to get answers immediately, they will reply according to their schedule or contract. One case is that employers have to compensate employees for electricity and utilities for working remote, in my case that is a cost of €10.58, I save much more for not commuting, financially and psychologically. [1] https://dre.pt/dre/home https://dre.pt/dre/home

CoffeeOnWrite 5y ago
> I have been working remote for 17 years This suggests you are likely a member of the professional class. A lot of labor regulation in the US (my country) is intended to protect the working class, not the professional class. Perhaps that was the intention of your politicians? (This legislation does sound like treating a symptom, and not unlikely to have unintended detrimental consequences. But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves)
- dymk 5y ago
  That the law might work in one case doesn't justify it as a good law - the law should consider at least some of the edge cases, especially if it's going to negatively impact such a large class of workers as the "professional class". It's also unclear that there's no scenario in which the non "professional class" would benefit from being able to be texted by their boss.
  - gkop 5y ago
    Where in my comment are you getting that I think it’s a good law? Bluntly, with my very limited context (no, I didn’t read the article), it sounds like a dumb law. I take to heart original commenter’s complaint that their country’s politicians produce a large volume of dumb laws, I hope disgust with the median politician is something we can all agree on.

evancoop 5y ago

The best counterargument here is that currently, the market adjudicates this already. Roles demanding after-hours access typically yield higher compensation than similar roles that do not. The market essentially offers an employee the opportunity to offer an employer greater availability in exchange for pay. If the employer demands that access without the corresponding compensation, the employee is likely to depart. This law posits a market failure. Does one exist?

pc86 5y ago
I agree with you 90% of the way, and it would be 100% if not for the fact that there are plenty of jobs which only exist with constant contact from your boss. There may be folks willing to do those jobs for lower compensation, but they don't have the opportunity. Also, I take issue generally with the idea that in order to only work reasonable hours without being bothered by your boss you need to get paid less for the work you already do.
confidantlake 5y ago
You could make that same argument for health and safety regulations. Why have them? The market will compensate the least safe places higher. But still I would rather know my workplace has some sort of minimum safety standard rather than try to guess and find the one least likely to get me injured/killed. There are at least 2 market failures I see. One is perfect information. The average worker will not know enough about how after hours access request system is implemented before starting. The other is perfect competition. In an ideal market there would be more competition that would give the worker enough choice to work without this after hours request demand. But in the real world the employee often does not have this choice.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago

Alas, Portugal, we hardly knew ye. No sane business will grow in a country with insane lawmakers.

throwaway984393 5y ago
People downvote this comment, but my company wouldn't open an office in Portugal after this if there are other options.
- pezezin 5y ago
  Which company is that? Just to know where not to apply.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Expecting workers to answer immediately when messaging them after hours is crazy. But supporting dumb idea to make such messaging illegal is even more crazy. For fairness, post a link to your linkedin, just to know whom not to hire.
    - pezezin 5y ago
      I don't have a LinkedIn account, so I can't post it. But given your response, you are not someone I want to work for or with. Not that I need it either, I'm not looking for a new job...
      - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
        You should do it but for me, but for every recruiter in the world! Funny how you are reluctant to disclose your identity after having such bold views on which empoyees not too work with.
        pezezin 5y ago
        Do you want to dox me because I have the "audacity" to demand workers' rights? Not wanting to get contacted after-hours is a "bold view"? Are you fucking serious?

syntaxstic 5y ago

This didn't get passed into legislation.

silexia 5y ago

What happens if there is a true emergency at work? Do employers just have to pay a bunch of fines every time this happens? What will the politicians do when lots of businesses that could have done business in Portugal instead go to another country that is more reasonable in their laws? If the politicians removed regulations and made Portugal much more attractive place for business, I think that would better accomplish their goal of improving workers lives. Businesses would be competing aggressively for Portuguese employees.

kelseyfrog 5y ago

I banned my boss from texting after hours. He texted me during hours for a legitimate reason. Moments after the issue was taken care of, I blocked his number. If it ever becomes an issue, it's easy to frame as a healthy way of enforcing boundaries. Everyone should block their boss by default.

ayush--s 5y ago
is this sarcasm?
noduerme 5y ago
Sounds like you established a good, respectful relationship with boundaries with your boss. Everyone should do this (without passing a law, obviously).

pugets 5y ago

>And companies may also have to contribute to higher household bills from being home-based, such as energy and internet costs. Isn't this what we should not be doing? If government wants people to start working from home, then don't create disincentives for companies to make the switch. Temporarily, at least, absorb the cost.

ekianjo 5y ago

Erm... Why do you need a law when you simply have to say no to your boss as an employee? "Sorry, I am following my contract, I'm not supposed to work after hours". If you can't even have this kind of discussion with your boss, grow some balls or change companies.

slater 5y ago
Erm... Because bosses might use that as leverage/reasoning and instead hire people who WILL answer after hours?
- nlitened 5y ago
  What stops them from doing the same without stating the reasoning?
  - aflag 5y ago
    They want to get ahead by pleasing the boss and doing everything they ask, they have no life outside work, they desperately need that job, they just aren’t good at saying no, etc.
- ekianjo 5y ago
  If your only advantage is that you will work after hours, then you might have a skills problem on the job market.
foepys 5y ago
When one is over 50 and has a family to support, growing some balls and quitting jobs could end up with one defaulting on the mortgage. It's easy to say this when you don't have any obligations and are young. But later in life this gets much, much harder.
- noduerme 5y ago
  When one is over 50, one should have grown some balls awhile back, no? In any event, it's never too late. If you're still employed, that implies they need you.

LatteLazy 5y ago

I don't object to texts or email out of hours. I can pick them up or not as suits me. And I'd rather know what I'm headed into than get in and find chaos.