30 ms·

> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yupp

> Proponents of efforts to make roads safer for cyclists have always gotten pushback from people who think that cycling is a niche hobby of rich lycra-clad yuppies. Which I think is misguided pushback btw (which I think you agree with based on the context). I see it as a chicken and egg thing. The roads are unsafe for bikers, so the only people who bike are those who are super dedicated to it. Then when people ask for the roads to be safer, it gets pushed back as "only biking enthusiasts use the roads now". Safer roads means more people will bike, which means biking will stop being seen as an elitist thing. Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car.

ryukafalz 5y ago
> The roads are unsafe for bikers, so the only people who bike are those who are super dedicated to it. Then when people ask for the roads to be safer, it gets pushed back as "only biking enthusiasts use the roads now". Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river.
- Johnny555 5y ago
  Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river. It's even worse since the bridge will be built with connecting roadways on both sides so it will be instantly popular. But often a few bike lanes will be constructed in isolation,t then people will complain "Look, we built these expensive bike lanes to nowhere and no one is even using them!" It takes a rich network of safe bike infrastructure to get average riders to use bikes. At least eBikes make hills less of an impediment.
  - photojosh 5y ago
    What compounds the problem is that the bike lanes are often built where it is easy and non-controversial to do so... and so the actually difficult spots get left until last... which are often the key points that dissuade people. Key example [0], the difference between the north and south entrances to the Sydney Harbour Bridge cycleway, which are under different local governments. The North Sydney council is actively fighting an upgrade [1], whereas on the south side it's smooth access expanding into a network of bike paths. In my city, the major conflict points are all short stretches of busy narrow road, while paths are going in elsewhere. [0] https://bicyclensw.org.au/a-tale-of-two-sydneys/ https://bicyclensw.org.au/a-tale-of-two-sydneys/ [1] https://architectureau.com/articles/sydney-harbour-bridge-cycle-ramp-proposal-falls-flat/ https://architectureau.com/articles/sydney-harbour-bridge-cy...
  - robotresearcher 5y ago
    This is a very important point. Bikeways, like roadways, are a system. My South Bay commute has nice bike paths part of the way, but they stop just short of a major highway-freeway intersection. Sure, it would be tough to build a good bike lane through this busy, high speed intersection. So there isn’t one. So the bike path just… stops. And you have to navigate this scary section to proceed. So almost nobody does. It’s such a shame since we have among the best bike-weather in the world, and a fairly flat basin to ride in. A little more infrastructure would help a lot. And e-bikes have their place for people going more than 20 mins and need to arrive feeling presentable.
The-Bus 5y ago
> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. The thought that biking is only for the rich is especially galling when I hear it said about NYC cyclists. The person saying this is thinking of the lycra'd-up dentist riding a Pinarello Dogma. The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June. Williamsburg had 230,000.[1] Cycling is much more prevalent than non-cyclers think. 1: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bike-counts.shtml https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bike-counts.sh...
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June. That's not bad at all, close to 10% of car traffic, based on old numbers.
Spooky23 5y ago
You have a point, but the Lance Armstrong wannabes make everyone miserable. In my area, they “took over” a popular bike trail and now kids and more casual people are pushed aside. It’s like dealing with serious lap swimmers.
- wil421 5y ago
  Runners took over a popular route that has roads with a low speed limit and bike lanes on either side. They run with lien 4-5 people next to each other and will never yield. I’m forced to slow down to a stop if a car is near or swerve into the road. They have plenty of signs telling bikes to ride single file but the runners could care less.
- analog31 5y ago
  Time for a Critical Mass of casual cyclists. ;-)
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    I don’t know where you live, but in the SF Bay Area the SF Critical Mass and East Bay Bike Party are both pretty casual events… To the point they attract the odd skateboarder or roller skater.
  - hodgesrm 5y ago
    I think you meant a Casual Mass of critical cyclists. :)
  - mike_d 5y ago
    Responsible bike riders should publicly condemn Critical Mass. They are the type of people that make drivers and pedestrians hate people on bikes, and go out of their way to escalate confrontations due to some bike rider victim complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_involving_Critical_Mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_involving_Critical_M...
    - sokoloff 5y ago
cmos 5y ago
Throw into this confusion a badly implemented public transportation system that you find in most US cities. Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride. We all pay taxes to keep roads maintained, we should all pay taxes to keep public transportation maintained. Not charging would help busses keep their schedules with less queuing and waiting, tourists would be less likely to rent a car, and it could help that chicken and egg problem. The problem with charging people with riding public transportation is you are taxing the very people we should be rewarding. The people who are committing to taking up less space on the road and living with a smaller carbon footprint are being penalized for their hugely beneficial decision to society not to drive. Making public transportation better and free are the two things that can transform a city and make it more equitable. Poor people would have more money and more places available to spend it. Every city benefits from its people having more money to spend and more places to spend it.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  At the very least it should be much cheaper than driving.
- danielheath 5y ago
  > Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride. This would depend on first fixing the poverty and homelessness that make theft, vandalism and antisocial behaviour so common. These things cost money to protect them from the impact desperate people otherwise have on them. Now, I’d be thrilled to help pay for that to all happen, but the order should be respected; making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds." It might be expebsive, but it's definately as simple as it sounds. I do not see how vandalism will be any different than it is today
    - amluto 5y ago
gsinclair 5y ago
> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. Here’s a theory: road cycling is more available to those who live reasonably close to work and have time to spare, and that is relatively rich people. Poorer people literally cannot afford not to have a car because they have to travel long distances to work, and their areas are not well served by public transport.
- adrianN 5y ago
  This might be different in the US, but here in Berlin access to cars correlates very strongly with income. The majority of below-median-income households don't have a car, whereas the top earners have several.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  That and they often work at night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike Not necessarily. There is often less traffic at night, for example. It depends on how well-lit the route is.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      And it's really impressive what you can get for $35 in bike lights these days. I use this set (with the 1000 lm): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002708075115.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002708075115.html
- Retric 5y ago
  The real difference is people working 9-5 see other commuters working 9-5 where students, working class, and poor people have a much wider range of schedules. As to living near the urban core, inner cities have a lot of relatively poor people. Roommates and HUD style affordable housing add another dimension to housing that’s not obvious to most people. Twenty to Thirty percent of the units have been set aside for low or middle-income residents, which means the monthly rent is affordable to low or middle-income households and those households must qualify at the outset. https://www.residenewyork.com/faq/how-many-units-are-allocated-for-affordable-new-york/ https://www.residenewyork.com/faq/how-many-units-are-allocat...
jackorange 5y ago
I think the issue goes further than that into being a societal problem. Majority of America is overweight, staring down at their phones day and night, and dread physical activity. They also like to flex their position and wealth to others, one of the reasons why pickup trucks and big SUVs sell in great numbers. These people are in no hurry to transition to riding bikes. The only way biking might work is if some popular celebrities on social media or otherwise started doing it, since many Americans just like to imitate what's popular.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Popular celebrities on social media already work out - why do you think Americans aren't already imitating it and why would they imitate bicycling?
  - jackorange 5y ago
    They do imitate it, they do enough to take pictures of themselves and they buy into the sports clothing brands and entertainment. Few actually do regular and consistent exercise. I think there would be an increase in biking if the celebs did it, but I say this imagining a new generation of Americana growing up watching a bunch of them doing it, not just one or two starting tomorrow and the nation follows suit.
- Maarten88 5y ago
  I'd suggest starting with bike paths to schools. Kids don't have the problems you mention, they also don't have an alternative when they want to travel independently.
  - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
    A lot of Americans are morbidly afraid of their children being away from adult supervision for more than a minute. I think suggesting 10 year olds ride a bike instead of taking a car or bus might infuriate more than a few people.
cuddlybacon 5y ago
> Safer roads means more people will bike, which means biking will stop being seen as an elitist thing. I don't think it is just safety. Most people understand an e-bike is going to be more dangerous, but they are popular anyways. The other factor is distance. e-bikes increase the distance that can be covered by a significant amount, which changes a lot of commutes from "too far" to acceptable. The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise. Even satire news sites have caught onto this: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/09/i-bike-everywhere-brags-cyclist-who-can-afford-living-downtown/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/09/i-bike-everywhere-brags...
- jeffbee 5y ago
  > The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise. No. The income bracket most likely to bike to work makes less than $10k/year. https://i1.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Percent_Bike_Income.png https://i1.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
- mackrevinack 5y ago
  its like some minimalists you see bragging about how they only have 1 spoon and 1 bowl and have no need for any other cutlery. like yea that's really easy when you are living in a city and within a five minute walk of multiple cafes and restaurants or where you can order takeaway. try living with 1 spoon out in the middle of nowhere and get back to me please
jmcphers 5y ago
> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. It's true that a bicycle is itself cheaper than a car, but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. The bicycle itself isn't the expensive part; you need proximity, extra commute time, and infrastructure. That stuff just isn't accessible to many people.
- nradov 5y ago
  In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners. For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jeffbee 5y ago
  > bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders. https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/number_bike_income.png https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
- mjmahone17 5y ago
  Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments. Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.
yissp 5y ago
Along similar lines, I think the fact that many cities aren't particularly bike-safe causes (some) cyclists to behave more assertively to the annoyance of motorists. This adversarial relationship hinders potential political cooperation. Admittedly, when I'm driving my car or riding my bike, I often find myself getting mad at people for doing things I know I also do when riding my bike or driving my car.
BackBlast 5y ago
It's... complicated... I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it because that's all I had. I did that for a couple of years - even in the cold and ice. My commute distance varied in my biking days, from 6 to 20 miles. I always obeyed all the traffic laws, though occasionally in the early AM I'd find lights that would not turn green for a bike no matter what I did. I had people scream at me to get off the road, and otherwise be exceptionally rude. I occasionally had bike lanes and appreciated them, sought them out because it provided better spacing. But the busses on those routes were frequently in the bike lane and were, frankly, slower than I was. But navigating them was always a pain until I got well past them. On slower roads (20-25 mph) with no bike lane I would take a lane to myself and keep up with traffic but only when I could reasonably keep up. In the end, safety won out, and I abandoned the practice. Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior. Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal. Bad spacing in the lane, little to no accommodation for drivers when they could provide a bit more space for a comfortable pass. Sometimes they can't help it, and I get it, but when they can and don't... I always tried to be crystal clear about my messaging to the cars around me. I'm taking the lane here for my safety because there are parked cars in the bike lane or otherwise on the shoulder. I'm done now and look, I'm providing lots of space for everyone to safely pass me. So the rude behavior I encountered was finally somewhat understood. I really appreciated having good bike lanes. But cyclists do themselves no favors in how they conduct themselves, which will hurt them when pining for better road accommodations. Even the cost factor is complicated. Everyone factors in the cost per mile of the bike, which is excellent, but the input calories are non-trivial and if you're not running the numbers on just ramen noodles it turns into quite a significant financial cost. There are definitely health benefits.
- JCharante 5y ago
  Aren't people of lower economic means also more overweight? Some exercise doesn't seem like a bad idea.
  - BackBlast 5y ago
emodendroket 5y ago
Another obvious point, I think, is that, no matter how much you like driving, crawling on the highway at rush hour is not the least bit enjoyable.
- mpalczewski 5y ago
  I didn't mind it, but I had a plush, quiet, comfortable car with an excellent sound system and that cruise control system that follows the car ahead of you. Would listen to music, a podcast, audiobook, or just enjoy some quiet solitude, all climate controlled. Some cars even have massaging seats now.
  - baq 5y ago
    gets old quick when you've got a school run to do and not just sit back and relax.
2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
In Sydney they have been adding cycle lanes to a lot of roads. I don’t bike because Sydney drivers are terrible. But it’s a real half measure. They need to aggressively push out drivers I think.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ryukafalz 5y ago

> The roads are unsafe for bikers, so the only people who bike are those who are super dedicated to it. Then when people ask for the roads to be safer, it gets pushed back as "only biking enthusiasts use the roads now". Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river.

Johnny555 5y ago
Yup. Bit like how it's hard to argue for building a bridge by the number of people swimming across the river. It's even worse since the bridge will be built with connecting roadways on both sides so it will be instantly popular. But often a few bike lanes will be constructed in isolation,t then people will complain "Look, we built these expensive bike lanes to nowhere and no one is even using them!" It takes a rich network of safe bike infrastructure to get average riders to use bikes. At least eBikes make hills less of an impediment.
- photojosh 5y ago
  What compounds the problem is that the bike lanes are often built where it is easy and non-controversial to do so... and so the actually difficult spots get left until last... which are often the key points that dissuade people. Key example [0], the difference between the north and south entrances to the Sydney Harbour Bridge cycleway, which are under different local governments. The North Sydney council is actively fighting an upgrade [1], whereas on the south side it's smooth access expanding into a network of bike paths. In my city, the major conflict points are all short stretches of busy narrow road, while paths are going in elsewhere. [0] https://bicyclensw.org.au/a-tale-of-two-sydneys/ https://bicyclensw.org.au/a-tale-of-two-sydneys/ [1] https://architectureau.com/articles/sydney-harbour-bridge-cycle-ramp-proposal-falls-flat/ https://architectureau.com/articles/sydney-harbour-bridge-cy...
- robotresearcher 5y ago
  This is a very important point. Bikeways, like roadways, are a system. My South Bay commute has nice bike paths part of the way, but they stop just short of a major highway-freeway intersection. Sure, it would be tough to build a good bike lane through this busy, high speed intersection. So there isn’t one. So the bike path just… stops. And you have to navigate this scary section to proceed. So almost nobody does. It’s such a shame since we have among the best bike-weather in the world, and a fairly flat basin to ride in. A little more infrastructure would help a lot. And e-bikes have their place for people going more than 20 mins and need to arrive feeling presentable.

The-Bus 5y ago

> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. The thought that biking is only for the rich is especially galling when I hear it said about NYC cyclists. The person saying this is thinking of the lycra'd-up dentist riding a Pinarello Dogma. The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June. Williamsburg had 230,000.[1] Cycling is much more prevalent than non-cyclers think. 1: https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bike-counts.shtml https://www1.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/bicyclists/bike-counts.sh...

rootusrootus 5y ago
> The Manhattan Bridge had 180,000 bike trips on it this June. That's not bad at all, close to 10% of car traffic, based on old numbers.

Spooky23 5y ago

You have a point, but the Lance Armstrong wannabes make everyone miserable. In my area, they “took over” a popular bike trail and now kids and more casual people are pushed aside. It’s like dealing with serious lap swimmers.

wil421 5y ago
Runners took over a popular route that has roads with a low speed limit and bike lanes on either side. They run with lien 4-5 people next to each other and will never yield. I’m forced to slow down to a stop if a car is near or swerve into the road. They have plenty of signs telling bikes to ride single file but the runners could care less.
analog31 5y ago
Time for a Critical Mass of casual cyclists. ;-)
- jdavis703 5y ago
  I don’t know where you live, but in the SF Bay Area the SF Critical Mass and East Bay Bike Party are both pretty casual events… To the point they attract the odd skateboarder or roller skater.
- hodgesrm 5y ago
  I think you meant a Casual Mass of critical cyclists. :)
- mike_d 5y ago
  Responsible bike riders should publicly condemn Critical Mass. They are the type of people that make drivers and pedestrians hate people on bikes, and go out of their way to escalate confrontations due to some bike rider victim complex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_involving_Critical_Mass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflicts_involving_Critical_M...
  - sokoloff 5y ago

cmos 5y ago

Throw into this confusion a badly implemented public transportation system that you find in most US cities. Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride. We all pay taxes to keep roads maintained, we should all pay taxes to keep public transportation maintained. Not charging would help busses keep their schedules with less queuing and waiting, tourists would be less likely to rent a car, and it could help that chicken and egg problem. The problem with charging people with riding public transportation is you are taxing the very people we should be rewarding. The people who are committing to taking up less space on the road and living with a smaller carbon footprint are being penalized for their hugely beneficial decision to society not to drive. Making public transportation better and free are the two things that can transform a city and make it more equitable. Poor people would have more money and more places available to spend it. Every city benefits from its people having more money to spend and more places to spend it.

emodendroket 5y ago
At the very least it should be much cheaper than driving.
danielheath 5y ago
> Public transportation and city bike rental systems should be free to ride. This would depend on first fixing the poverty and homelessness that make theft, vandalism and antisocial behaviour so common. These things cost money to protect them from the impact desperate people otherwise have on them. Now, I’d be thrilled to help pay for that to all happen, but the order should be respected; making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "making trains and buses free isn’t as simple as it sounds." It might be expebsive, but it's definately as simple as it sounds. I do not see how vandalism will be any different than it is today
  - amluto 5y ago

gsinclair 5y ago

> Edit: to add on, bikes are like 1-2 orders of magnitude cheaper than cars too, both in upfront and ongoing costs also. It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. Here’s a theory: road cycling is more available to those who live reasonably close to work and have time to spare, and that is relatively rich people. Poorer people literally cannot afford not to have a car because they have to travel long distances to work, and their areas are not well served by public transport.

adrianN 5y ago
This might be different in the US, but here in Berlin access to cars correlates very strongly with income. The majority of below-median-income households don't have a car, whereas the top earners have several.
rdtwo 5y ago
That and they often work at night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > night when it’s extremely unsafe to bike Not necessarily. There is often less traffic at night, for example. It depends on how well-lit the route is.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    And it's really impressive what you can get for $35 in bike lights these days. I use this set (with the 1000 lm): https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002708075115.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002708075115.html
Retric 5y ago
The real difference is people working 9-5 see other commuters working 9-5 where students, working class, and poor people have a much wider range of schedules. As to living near the urban core, inner cities have a lot of relatively poor people. Roommates and HUD style affordable housing add another dimension to housing that’s not obvious to most people. Twenty to Thirty percent of the units have been set aside for low or middle-income residents, which means the monthly rent is affordable to low or middle-income households and those households must qualify at the outset. https://www.residenewyork.com/faq/how-many-units-are-allocated-for-affordable-new-york/ https://www.residenewyork.com/faq/how-many-units-are-allocat...

jackorange 5y ago

I think the issue goes further than that into being a societal problem. Majority of America is overweight, staring down at their phones day and night, and dread physical activity. They also like to flex their position and wealth to others, one of the reasons why pickup trucks and big SUVs sell in great numbers. These people are in no hurry to transition to riding bikes. The only way biking might work is if some popular celebrities on social media or otherwise started doing it, since many Americans just like to imitate what's popular.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Popular celebrities on social media already work out - why do you think Americans aren't already imitating it and why would they imitate bicycling?
- jackorange 5y ago
  They do imitate it, they do enough to take pictures of themselves and they buy into the sports clothing brands and entertainment. Few actually do regular and consistent exercise. I think there would be an increase in biking if the celebs did it, but I say this imagining a new generation of Americana growing up watching a bunch of them doing it, not just one or two starting tomorrow and the nation follows suit.
Maarten88 5y ago
I'd suggest starting with bike paths to schools. Kids don't have the problems you mention, they also don't have an alternative when they want to travel independently.
- forgotmyoldname 5y ago
  A lot of Americans are morbidly afraid of their children being away from adult supervision for more than a minute. I think suggesting 10 year olds ride a bike instead of taking a car or bus might infuriate more than a few people.

cuddlybacon 5y ago

> Safer roads means more people will bike, which means biking will stop being seen as an elitist thing. I don't think it is just safety. Most people understand an e-bike is going to be more dangerous, but they are popular anyways. The other factor is distance. e-bikes increase the distance that can be covered by a significant amount, which changes a lot of commutes from "too far" to acceptable. The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise. Even satire news sites have caught onto this: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/09/i-bike-everywhere-brags-cyclist-who-can-afford-living-downtown/ https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/09/i-bike-everywhere-brags...

jeffbee 5y ago
> The only people who can afford to be within a bike commute are at least above-average income-wise. No. The income bracket most likely to bike to work makes less than $10k/year. https://i1.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Percent_Bike_Income.png https://i1.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
mackrevinack 5y ago
its like some minimalists you see bragging about how they only have 1 spoon and 1 bowl and have no need for any other cutlery. like yea that's really easy when you are living in a city and within a five minute walk of multiple cafes and restaurants or where you can order takeaway. try living with 1 spoon out in the middle of nowhere and get back to me please

jmcphers 5y ago

> It’s super unfortunate that it still gets the stereotype as a “rich white people” activity when it’s really so much more financially accessible than a car. It's true that a bicycle is itself cheaper than a car, but housing within biking distance to job centers sure isn't. In my view this is the primary reason bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks. The bicycle itself isn't the expensive part; you need proximity, extra commute time, and infrastructure. That stuff just isn't accessible to many people.

nradov 5y ago
In urban areas I see a lot of the lowest income restaurant workers commuting by bike. Those people often live fairly close to work, but are in some kind of precarious semi-legal housing situation or actually homeless. Most aren't citizens and are basically invisible to politicians and urban planners. For example check out the restaurants in Mountain View, CA patronized by affluent employees of Google and LinkedIn. Walk around back and you'll see a bunch of cheap bikes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jeffbee 5y ago
> bicycle commuters are stereotypically rich folks Stereotypes are only useful to the extent that they contain a kernel of truth, and this one is just false. The largest group of American bicycle-to-work riders lies in the $20-30k/year income group, i.e. poor people. With each increase of $10k/year income there are fewer riders. https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/number_bike_income.png https://i2.wp.com/cityobservatory.org/wp-content/uploads/201...
mjmahone17 5y ago
Housing within bicycle commuting distance (under 5 miles) in many cities is abundant, if you’re willing to forgo a car. Especially if you convert the car savings to rent or mortgage payments. Basically, if you can be all-in on not driving, you save a lot. But once you even want to drive a little bit, the savings to driving only sometimes instead of all the time is not very large (and can in fact be negative, as you pointed out with needing closer housing with parking). Unless it allows you to go from a two to one car family.

yissp 5y ago

Along similar lines, I think the fact that many cities aren't particularly bike-safe causes (some) cyclists to behave more assertively to the annoyance of motorists. This adversarial relationship hinders potential political cooperation. Admittedly, when I'm driving my car or riding my bike, I often find myself getting mad at people for doing things I know I also do when riding my bike or driving my car.

BackBlast 5y ago

It's... complicated... I rode a bike to school when my limited money would buy a very bad car or a nice bike. So I opted for the bike and had to ride it because that's all I had. I did that for a couple of years - even in the cold and ice. My commute distance varied in my biking days, from 6 to 20 miles. I always obeyed all the traffic laws, though occasionally in the early AM I'd find lights that would not turn green for a bike no matter what I did. I had people scream at me to get off the road, and otherwise be exceptionally rude. I occasionally had bike lanes and appreciated them, sought them out because it provided better spacing. But the busses on those routes were frequently in the bike lane and were, frankly, slower than I was. But navigating them was always a pain until I got well past them. On slower roads (20-25 mph) with no bike lane I would take a lane to myself and keep up with traffic but only when I could reasonably keep up. In the end, safety won out, and I abandoned the practice. Now, as a driver, I am appalled at the behavior of cyclists. With my experience I take interest in and carefully watch their behavior. Running red lights and not stopping for stop signs is the worst. And it's pretty universal. Bad spacing in the lane, little to no accommodation for drivers when they could provide a bit more space for a comfortable pass. Sometimes they can't help it, and I get it, but when they can and don't... I always tried to be crystal clear about my messaging to the cars around me. I'm taking the lane here for my safety because there are parked cars in the bike lane or otherwise on the shoulder. I'm done now and look, I'm providing lots of space for everyone to safely pass me. So the rude behavior I encountered was finally somewhat understood. I really appreciated having good bike lanes. But cyclists do themselves no favors in how they conduct themselves, which will hurt them when pining for better road accommodations. Even the cost factor is complicated. Everyone factors in the cost per mile of the bike, which is excellent, but the input calories are non-trivial and if you're not running the numbers on just ramen noodles it turns into quite a significant financial cost. There are definitely health benefits.

JCharante 5y ago
Aren't people of lower economic means also more overweight? Some exercise doesn't seem like a bad idea.
- BackBlast 5y ago

emodendroket 5y ago

Another obvious point, I think, is that, no matter how much you like driving, crawling on the highway at rush hour is not the least bit enjoyable.

mpalczewski 5y ago
I didn't mind it, but I had a plush, quiet, comfortable car with an excellent sound system and that cruise control system that follows the car ahead of you. Would listen to music, a podcast, audiobook, or just enjoy some quiet solitude, all climate controlled. Some cars even have massaging seats now.
- baq 5y ago
  gets old quick when you've got a school run to do and not just sit back and relax.

2muchcoffeeman 5y ago

In Sydney they have been adding cycle lanes to a lot of roads. I don’t bike because Sydney drivers are terrible. But it’s a real half measure. They need to aggressively push out drivers I think.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]