9 ms·

Discussed previously here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29038356 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29038356 It’s worth noting that this isn’t the fi

• nikanj 5y ago
  Because people don’t really see opportunity costs, and say everyone should get a large private room with a window. In reality half the people get a massive debt burden and the other half live off-campus, but the complainers don’t really see that part. See also: people who are vehemently opposed to building more density, because a detached house with a large yard is better for mental health
  • entropyie 5y ago
    i see your point, minimum size rules for appartents in Ireland cause similar issues. But I draw the line at windows. They are a basic human necessity and a fire hazard mitigation. I stayed in a hostel underground once in Liverpool, and it was aweful... I was not rich at college and shared crappy houses all the while, but I would not take this up under any circumstances.
    • roenxi 5y ago
      Based on the stats, you're probably underweighting the damage of very high debt levels and overweighting the importance of windows. Although there are serious questions to ask about the ventilation of these rooms - as long as they've got satisfactory answers it looks like a good idea. The options can't be perfect or nothing. The options should be perfect, good and bad.
      • Aeolun 5y ago
        > The options should be perfect, good and bad. Certainly. The problem comes when you present something that is bad as something that is good or perfect.
      • notahacker 5y ago
        I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that windows and manageable debt levels can coexist. This design isn't because students can't afford buildings with windows, it's because a billionaire has a fantasy that it's the optimal design for such a building, thinks architects who disagree are "ignorant", and is making his donation contingent on it.
        • roenxi 5y ago
          An ignorant and devious billionaire plot to deprive us of our hard earned right to a window is the most entertaining thought I've had all week. You have to admit that there is at least a chance that this is a good idea and Mr Munger has good advice on the subject? It isn't like the students are confined to their cell, they just need to sleep there. A lot of them may not consider a window important, particularly in the face of saving some money.
          • notahacker 5y ago
            I think there's at least a chance the people opposing this also know what they're talking about (as indeed do the Building Regulations people in my country, where this design wouldn't be legal to let as accommodation). If Munger's had good advice on this it's not exactly coming across in his interview.
• mc32 5y ago
  Thanks for the alternate view. My initial reaction was to react against a windowless dorm room layout. But you make some good points. What I still don’t get is why insist on such few egress paths and emergency exits? Do you know if they are piping in some natural sunlight to the interior?
• pfisherman 5y ago
  Munger is one of the most expensive residence halls at Stanford. The rooms are quite spacious compared to EV and Rains, and all the finishes are much nicer.
• dkarp 5y ago
  Just looking at the Stanford residence and it seems to have incredibly bright windowed rooms (maybe they're not showing the windowless ones?)[0] [0] https://rde.stanford.edu/studenthousing/munger-graduate-residence#Residences https://rde.stanford.edu/studenthousing/munger-graduate-resi...
  • rsj_hn 5y ago
    Stanford students get windows. Cal students don't. :P
  • endtime 5y ago
    Yeah, IIRC I lived in (that) Munger for a year, and had a large, windowed bedroom and bathroom to myself. My 3 roommates had the same, and we shared a living room and kitchen. Not really anything like this new building.
  • 542458 5y ago
    Looks like you’re right! My bad. The Michigan one definitely doesn’t have a window in every room though.
    • chaosite 5y ago
      But they have windows in every apartment, and the UCSB dorm does not.
    • dkarp 5y ago
      No worries, it's interesting how incredibly bright these rooms are. The windows are unusually large. Maybe Munger didn't have much input there. [edit] downvoter is maybe unaware that I'm referring to the Stanford Munger building and not the proposed windowless building
• legobmw99 5y ago
  In addition to the caveats in your edit, the scale is also different. The new proposal is several times larger by interior square footage
• Jochim 5y ago
  > It sounds to me like Munger is correct, and on average people would rather have a small private room with a fake window and lower rent and than a shared room with a real window and higher rent. I’m not sure why this particular structure has provoked so much more outrage than the previous ones. There's something that feels off about this statement. It reads much like the articles that talk about how young millennials are "choosing" to live in pod houses/tiny homes when in reality they can't afford anything better. They are forced to live in these conditions which are then normalised by authors framing it as a free choice.
  • 542458 5y ago
    This isn’t the only residence on UM campus! The rest are “normal”. And what you said doesn’t align with the good reviews the pace gets, even compared to “normal” housing. And to be honest, we’re always going to have to “force” people into some sort of living condition. There are more people than ever going to higher education, so people will have to accept either smaller living spaces, denser construction, higher costs, or longer commutes to school - space is (unfortunately) a rival good, and giving everybody a large dorm is likely not viable.
  • 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
    As I was reading the article, I started thinking this guy was right. At university, I would often have to get to a lab or whatever early in the morning and then get home late at night. I would have this sort of routine for weeks or months at a time. I may as well have had no windows. I think as long as you get out during the day, and as a student, that’s probably likely, this sort of arrangement seems to make sense. But still offends me.
    • JKCalhoun 5y ago
      It's offensive because it's someone dictating how student's should live. It besmirches any goodwill from the original act of philanthropy.
      • Chris2048 5y ago
• chaosite 5y ago
  Looking at pictures online, the Stanford one seems to have windows. The Michigan one doesn't have windows in the bedroom, but does have windows in the apartment (shared kitchen/living room of 7 bedrooms, i.e., common area.).[1][2] The 3d render of the apartment in this article doesn't have any windows at all, anywhere! The windows in common areas they seem to be talking about are study spaces outside the apartment. [1] -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iRaug6kB14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iRaug6kB14 [2] -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtkALW6Q2_A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtkALW6Q2_A
  • chaosite 5y ago
    OK, I found an article with a floorplan[1]. This thing is not at all comparable to the Michigan dorms. Recall, in the Michigan dorms you have an apartment housing 7 people with a spacious, well-lit living room (6 windows, but the count isn't important.) Sure, you don't have a window in your bedroom, and that sucks, but to see the sun you just go through that one door. But in this proposed building? Look at that insane floor plan[2]! It looks like a maze! If you're in one of those inner rooms, you exit your bedroom (no windows) into your apartment's common area (no windows), exit that to a long corridor that eventually leads to your "House's" common area, which finally has windows. But is the opposite way from the building's exit. Yeah this thing is insane. [1] https://www.dezeen.com/2021/11/02/architect-resigns-grotesque-design-university-california-munger-hall/ https://www.dezeen.com/2021/11/02/architect-resigns-grotesqu... [2] https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2021/11/munger-hall-university-of-california-santa-barbara-floor-plan_dezeen_2364_col_0-1704x1226.jpg https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2021/11/munger-hall-univer...
    • stuaxo 5y ago
      It's downright evil.
• gehsty 5y ago
  Just feels like its presented as undergraduate accommodation comes with either a shared room or a window. which is complete BS. I don't think this would even be allowed to be built in a lot of Europe.
• q_andrew 5y ago
  If anyone is bored at work, here's a long discussion podcast that dives pretty deep into the architecture of Munger Hall (unloving dubbed 'the Cube' by locals): https://youtu.be/4grR3qoSV90 https://youtu.be/4grR3qoSV90
• odiroot 5y ago
  As a point of reference, many hotels in China have windowless rooms. I wouldn't want to live in one, but, for a short stay I actually preferred it. There was much less noise in these "internal rooms". Normal rooms usually get a lot of street noise.
  • mdp2021 5y ago
    True, but you need the air inflow, and no windows suggests forced ventilation, which is still noise pollution (to my experience it can be very noisy, owing to both fans and engines).
• scythe 5y ago
  >I’m not sure why this particular structure has provoked so much more outrage than the previous ones. Nobody heard about the building in Michigan, so nobody talked about it. Also, in Ann Arbor it's very likely that the CoL is not so high that students are de facto forced to tolerate these conditions. It's not really Munger who's the villain here, he instead plays the role of an enabler. There's no inherent reason that housing costs should be so high that students have to live in these awful boxes, it's because of the policies chosen by the City of Santa Barbara. For context, the population density in SB is about a quarter of that in SF. What's outrageous is that students pay the price in mental health and fire safety for housing policy that benefits the well-off and well-connected seeking aesthetics and investment returns. What motivates people to comment is the implied risk of this callous abuse of construction restrictions ("zoning") being extended to other vulnerable populations.
• pseudalopex 5y ago
  The Michigan building houses just 630 graduate students who chose to live there. Over 98% of students live elsewhere. How does that show most people prefer it? The bedrooms are much larger. They have individual bathrooms. And a number of reviews said at least the suites have windows. UCSB's wouldn't. > or at least the kind of people that would sign up for res in a building like this You added this later. It's tautological. And often undergraduate students don't get to choose their building.
• Aeolun 5y ago
  > I’m not sure why this particular structure has provoked so much more outrage than the previous ones. Looking at the layout it is positively dystopian. People will say they feel a private room is better, but that’s no guarantee that it actually is. Conversely, we have a lot of research showing that natural light brings all kind of benefits.