5 ms·

That's an alarming detail I didn't realize. Without a control group maintained over some lengthy period (10+) years, is there any other methodology to identify

That's an alarming detail I didn't realize. Without a control group maintained over some lengthy period (10+) years, is there any other methodology to identify and attribute any potential long-term side effects of a vaccine? I'm not worried about this all that much, as someone who opted for an mRNA vaccine, but I think we should still be rigorous in studying it just in case.

xyzzy21 5y ago
This is why "unvaxxed" often call themselves "The Control"; they noticed this long ago. In other news: most anti-vaxxers have advanced degrees and above average IQ.
- dEnigma 5y ago
  Is your last claim a joke or serious? Because anecdotally I've seen almost the exact opposite in my social circles. But of course that's just personal experience.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    I think it is a reference to a study earlier this year that found that vaccine hesitancy was greatest among PhDs: https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-07-27/whos-most-likely-to-refuse-a-covid-vaccine https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-07-27/...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dTal 5y ago
  >most anti-vaxxers have advanced degrees and above average IQ I find this deeply implausible, both from first principles and personal experience. Can you back this extraordinary claim up? This study shows a negative correlation between IQ and covid vaccine hesitancy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133799/
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    Why is IQ an acceptable measure HERE but any other use of IQ correlating with behavior is shot down?
    - dTal 5y ago
      The parent asserted a correlation. I contradicted it. Neither of us explicitly cited IQ as a "measure" of anything, but also I expect neither of us would object to doing so in broad strokes. So you'll have to find someone else to ask.
- QuadmasterXLII 5y ago
  About 22% of americans identify as antivaxxers, and about 13% Master's and/or doctorate and/or professional degree. For your claim to be true, over 90% of people with advanced degrees would have to identify as antivaxxers. That is, if words mean things to you. If what you intended was "I feel like anti-vaxxers are smart, and want to come up with a fancy fact-like way of saying that," then you're spot on. good job sport.
alecst 5y ago
Side effects from vaccines almost always occur within a few weeks of getting them, if they occur at all. It would be exceptional if side effects occurred months or years down the line. It’s obviously not impossible and I don’t want to give the impression that I think it is, but it’s just not considered a likely outcome. Plus, anyways, we know that SARS-CoV-2 is far more dangerous in both the long and short term.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  Dangerous? I think you need to be a great deal more specific than that, since the risk tranches of Covid-19 are highly variables based on obesity, comorbidities, and age. At a very young age, mortality from vaccine side effects (~200 to ~700 peri/myocarditis per 1M) is greater than mortality from covid itself (1 per 1M for a healthy young male no comorbidities 18 yo not obese), depending on comorbidities. This violates do no harm.
  - jalk 5y ago
    > At a very young age, mortality from vaccine side effects (~200 to ~700 peri/myocarditis per 1M) is greater than mortality from covid itself Do you have a source for that number? All I have seen indicate that the cases are mild to intermediate, but no actual deaths directly linked to myocarditis.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Pfizer's 5-11 covid vaccine FDA application estimates a bunch of numbers that roughly match the OP numbers in Table 14, page 34. Though we should not confuse myocarditis in boys 200/M with myocarditis mortality, which is 0. And, of course, grain of salt for Pfizer estimation, probably the real numbers could be marginally worse. https://www.fda.gov/media/153447/download https://www.fda.gov/media/153447/download
      - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
        > Post-EUA safety surveillance reports received by FDA and CDC identified increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within 7 days following administration of the second dose of the 2-dose primary series. Reporting rates for medical chart-confirmed myocarditis and pericarditis in VAERS have been higher among males under 40 years of age than among females and older males and have been highest in males 12 through 17 years of age (~71.5 cases per million second primary series doses among males age 16-17 years and 42.6 cases per million second primary series doses among males age 12-15 years as per CDC presentation to the ACIP on August 30, 2021). * In an FDA analysis of the Optum healthcare claims database, the estimated excess risk of myocarditis/pericarditis approached 200 cases per million fully vaccinated males 16-17 years of age and 180 cases per million fully vaccinated males 12-15 years of age * .44 Although some cases of vaccine-associated myocarditis/pericarditis have required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae and outcomes in affected individuals, or whether the vaccine might be associated initially with subclinical myocarditis (and if so, what are the long-term sequelae). A mechanism of action by which the vaccine could cause myocarditis and pericarditis has not been established. Myocarditis and pericarditis were added as important identified risks in the PVP and included in the Warnings sections of the vaccine Fact Sheets and Prescribing Information. The Sponsor is conducting additional post-authorization/post-marketing studies to assess known serious risks of myocarditis and pericarditis as well as to identify an unexpected serious risk of subclinical myocarditis. I pulled out the text from your link which is the applicable text with most apropos italicized Given what we know thus far I think it is consistent with the research to say that this is likewise, potentially caused by intravenous injection of the vaccine, rather than intramuscular as properly indicated. This is also partially caused by modern vaccine procedures which rarely involve aspiration, therefore, the medical provider has no clear indication of whether or not they are injecting into muscle or veins. As someone that considers himself vaccine-hesistant, I consider this to be a big potential victory in addressing arguably one of the most concerning side effects with mRNA based vaccines, and reducing my concern level if I am required to get the vaccine.
sjg007 5y ago
This is a nothing burger.

xyzzy21 5y ago

This is why "unvaxxed" often call themselves "The Control"; they noticed this long ago. In other news: most anti-vaxxers have advanced degrees and above average IQ.

dEnigma 5y ago
Is your last claim a joke or serious? Because anecdotally I've seen almost the exact opposite in my social circles. But of course that's just personal experience.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  I think it is a reference to a study earlier this year that found that vaccine hesitancy was greatest among PhDs: https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-07-27/whos-most-likely-to-refuse-a-covid-vaccine https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-07-27/...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dTal 5y ago
>most anti-vaxxers have advanced degrees and above average IQ I find this deeply implausible, both from first principles and personal experience. Can you back this extraordinary claim up? This study shows a negative correlation between IQ and covid vaccine hesitancy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133799/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8133799/
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
  Why is IQ an acceptable measure HERE but any other use of IQ correlating with behavior is shot down?
  - dTal 5y ago
    The parent asserted a correlation. I contradicted it. Neither of us explicitly cited IQ as a "measure" of anything, but also I expect neither of us would object to doing so in broad strokes. So you'll have to find someone else to ask.
QuadmasterXLII 5y ago
About 22% of americans identify as antivaxxers, and about 13% Master's and/or doctorate and/or professional degree. For your claim to be true, over 90% of people with advanced degrees would have to identify as antivaxxers. That is, if words mean things to you. If what you intended was "I feel like anti-vaxxers are smart, and want to come up with a fancy fact-like way of saying that," then you're spot on. good job sport.

alecst 5y ago

Side effects from vaccines almost always occur within a few weeks of getting them, if they occur at all. It would be exceptional if side effects occurred months or years down the line. It’s obviously not impossible and I don’t want to give the impression that I think it is, but it’s just not considered a likely outcome. Plus, anyways, we know that SARS-CoV-2 is far more dangerous in both the long and short term.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Dangerous? I think you need to be a great deal more specific than that, since the risk tranches of Covid-19 are highly variables based on obesity, comorbidities, and age. At a very young age, mortality from vaccine side effects (~200 to ~700 peri/myocarditis per 1M) is greater than mortality from covid itself (1 per 1M for a healthy young male no comorbidities 18 yo not obese), depending on comorbidities. This violates do no harm.
- jalk 5y ago
  > At a very young age, mortality from vaccine side effects (~200 to ~700 peri/myocarditis per 1M) is greater than mortality from covid itself Do you have a source for that number? All I have seen indicate that the cases are mild to intermediate, but no actual deaths directly linked to myocarditis.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Pfizer's 5-11 covid vaccine FDA application estimates a bunch of numbers that roughly match the OP numbers in Table 14, page 34. Though we should not confuse myocarditis in boys 200/M with myocarditis mortality, which is 0. And, of course, grain of salt for Pfizer estimation, probably the real numbers could be marginally worse. https://www.fda.gov/media/153447/download https://www.fda.gov/media/153447/download
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      > Post-EUA safety surveillance reports received by FDA and CDC identified increased risks of myocarditis and pericarditis, particularly within 7 days following administration of the second dose of the 2-dose primary series. Reporting rates for medical chart-confirmed myocarditis and pericarditis in VAERS have been higher among males under 40 years of age than among females and older males and have been highest in males 12 through 17 years of age (~71.5 cases per million second primary series doses among males age 16-17 years and 42.6 cases per million second primary series doses among males age 12-15 years as per CDC presentation to the ACIP on August 30, 2021). * In an FDA analysis of the Optum healthcare claims database, the estimated excess risk of myocarditis/pericarditis approached 200 cases per million fully vaccinated males 16-17 years of age and 180 cases per million fully vaccinated males 12-15 years of age * .44 Although some cases of vaccine-associated myocarditis/pericarditis have required intensive care support, available data from short-term follow-up suggest that most individuals have had resolution of symptoms with conservative management. Information is not yet available about potential long-term sequelae and outcomes in affected individuals, or whether the vaccine might be associated initially with subclinical myocarditis (and if so, what are the long-term sequelae). A mechanism of action by which the vaccine could cause myocarditis and pericarditis has not been established. Myocarditis and pericarditis were added as important identified risks in the PVP and included in the Warnings sections of the vaccine Fact Sheets and Prescribing Information. The Sponsor is conducting additional post-authorization/post-marketing studies to assess known serious risks of myocarditis and pericarditis as well as to identify an unexpected serious risk of subclinical myocarditis. I pulled out the text from your link which is the applicable text with most apropos italicized Given what we know thus far I think it is consistent with the research to say that this is likewise, potentially caused by intravenous injection of the vaccine, rather than intramuscular as properly indicated. This is also partially caused by modern vaccine procedures which rarely involve aspiration, therefore, the medical provider has no clear indication of whether or not they are injecting into muscle or veins. As someone that considers himself vaccine-hesistant, I consider this to be a big potential victory in addressing arguably one of the most concerning side effects with mRNA based vaccines, and reducing my concern level if I am required to get the vaccine.

sjg007 5y ago

This is a nothing burger.