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Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, withou

Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, without owing fealty, taxes and morality to a government in some future? The current financial system is not all software. When i pay in crypto, i give you my money. When i pay in the current financial system I am giving you every bit of information to rob me blind and hoping you don't take it all. My currency(Value i produce) is not my own and at any moment in time some outside entity can cause rapid inflation, devaluing of my currency or take everything i own straight out of my bank account. My contracts are not upheld by code, but by courts of law. I have to do a credit check to outside entity's to ensure you've got the collateral to extend you a loan. I have to physically go into a bank, have a minimum balance, an address, a phone number in order to even have a bank account. That doesn't sound like all code to me. Also, you're right. POW as a consensus method is flawed. But again, all V3 cryptos have essentially transitioned to delegated proof of stake at this point. Lastly, in a generation of cancel culture gone wild and as an avid reader of history, I'm glad crypto is available to me as the nation-state that we've all known and loved is looking more and more stressed. If you still claim there's absolutely no value in any of it, then me and you have very different definitions of the term. Edit: There are 104 protocols/coins that have over $1B market cap. Value isn't a personal judgement, it's a group one.

foxylad 5y ago
> When i pay in the current financial system I am giving you every bit of information to rob me blind and hoping you don't take it all. I don't understand this. You're saying if I send you $0.01 via internet banking, you can somehow take everything in the account? It doesn't work this way in NZ, where it is common to put your bank account details on invoices so people can pay you directly.
- RustyConsul 5y ago
  When i pay for something online, I am giving away my credit card/ debit card/ ACH information away for them to subtract the total amount of my transaction (Or debit it). I am trusting that outside entity in a number of different ways; To only take the required amount, b.) encrypt my information to prevent my information from leaking. Credit card data is leaked regularly in mass uploads for pennys on the dollar. Credit card fraud is mediated by the credit companies themselves and is just an insurance issue to them. Crypto, I sign the transaction to send it to you. You don't get anything but my public id, amount and block time.
  - fiter 5y ago
    This sounds like a check that's signed electronically rather than physically. I think another thing to note is that the other party is ASKING your bank/credit issuer to debit. The transaction can be stopped if not approved. Normally I see the argument for crypto being that this helps merchants by avoiding charge backs, etc.
  - bluecalm 5y ago
    I often notice this expressed by Americans. I can't remember last time I gave my debit card (why would anyone need a credit card anyway) to any party other than big companies like PayPal. Locally I pay with Blik (I have to confirm exact amount transferred on my phone and the seller doesn't have an option to extract/ask for more). If a company really wants a card I create a virtual, load it up with a chosen small amount and get rid of it when I no longer need it. We also have instant bank transfers if needed (normal ones take several hours). Even with debit cards you have 3D secure these days which requires confirmation on your phone. Just because USA is behind in banking department and even credit/debit card thing doesn't mean those problems are especially hard to solve. The rest of the world is already partially there and with more fintechs putting pressure on banks things will improve even more.
  - mrep 5y ago
    My citi card offers virtual 1 time use numbers [0] and comes with all the normal benefits that you get from credit cards. Also, you are trusting that the person you are sending money to honors their agreement as there is no intermediary to dispute transactional claims. [0]: https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-Numbers https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-N...
arcticbull 5y ago
> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. > Also, you're right. POW as a consensus method is flawed. But again, all V3 cryptos have essentially transitioned to delegated proof of stake at this point. I honestly don't know enough about "V3 cryptos" to speak to it, and I'm not trying to add any FUD to the conversation :) I'll have to DMOR if you will before I can speak to that, which is why I've been constraining my comments to the system I know (BTC). > Edit: There are 104 protocols/coins that have over $1B market cap. Value isn't a personal judgement, it's a group one. [edit] Market cap isn't a judgement of value, just the most recent price multiplied by supply. Control the most recent price, you control the market cap. Unless you include legitimate market depth it's not really a meaningful number. SHIB for instance.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  > Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. Not the asker, but thank you for answering this--it goes a long way toward understanding where your arguments are coming from.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    Places without a functional government have a history of doing pretty poorly. I think the burden of proof that there is a possible future without government lies on those making that claim. That burden has definitely not been met and the thus the feverent belied in that claim by cryptocurrency bulls is not rational.
    - jkhdigital 5y ago
      This is kind of a straw man… while I’m sure there are some fringe John McAfee-types who think crypto is the door to anarcho-capitalism, I don’t take any of them seriously. So I’m not sure who you’re directing your argument towards.
    - momo_O 5y ago
jkhdigital 5y ago
> POW as a consensus method is flawed. It's not flawed, just hardcore. It's like the gold bars sitting in vaults deep underground in London, rarely moved and usually just relabeled to account for change in ownership. Every now and then someone gets spooked and asks to take custody, and it's expensive as hell to move it but you can lay your hands on it and know your ownership is secure.
- RustyConsul 5y ago
  lol - the cyberpunk future we never saw coming.
neatze 5y ago
> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? As long there is scarcity of resources, there will be wars/conflicts and humans will be collective species, even if we don't have scarcity of resources, some humans will invent a few, and even if humans will not invent one, it is debatable since I don't know of any evidence where humans can survive individually. This is without mentioning social classes over multiple generations.
jcranmer 5y ago
> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? > Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, without owing fealty, taxes and morality to a government in some future? Without governments, how are social strictures enforced? How are externalities, positive or negative, accounted for? How does a government-less world not look like Somalia? (Or are you suggesting that you really would like to live in a place like Somalia?) This isn't to suggest that existing governments are perfect (far from it), but it seems to me that the anarchic counterpart is infinitely worse.
- ottomatias 5y ago
  Fun fact: Somalia seemed to do a lot better without government than with a government. (though of course it's not simple) https://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf https://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf
creeble 5y ago
And once again, we arrive at the real definition of cryptocurrency: It's not a currency, or financial system, it's a counterpoint to democracy.
- SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
  Good, a bit of competition works out better for the end user. Political systems tend to be a monopoly, and monopolies lend themselves to abusive practices.
pcwalton 5y ago
> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? > Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, without owing fealty, taxes and morality to a government in some future? All of this is doing nothing to change my view that cryptocurrency requires me to buy into this whole weird worldview in a way that few other products do. No, I don't particularly want to be an anarcho-capitalist.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  I think I liked your previous phrasing better: > I really would like to see a defense of Bitcoin that doesn't rest on the assumption that I want to live in Galt's Gulch.

foxylad 5y ago

> When i pay in the current financial system I am giving you every bit of information to rob me blind and hoping you don't take it all. I don't understand this. You're saying if I send you $0.01 via internet banking, you can somehow take everything in the account? It doesn't work this way in NZ, where it is common to put your bank account details on invoices so people can pay you directly.

RustyConsul 5y ago
When i pay for something online, I am giving away my credit card/ debit card/ ACH information away for them to subtract the total amount of my transaction (Or debit it). I am trusting that outside entity in a number of different ways; To only take the required amount, b.) encrypt my information to prevent my information from leaking. Credit card data is leaked regularly in mass uploads for pennys on the dollar. Credit card fraud is mediated by the credit companies themselves and is just an insurance issue to them. Crypto, I sign the transaction to send it to you. You don't get anything but my public id, amount and block time.
- fiter 5y ago
  This sounds like a check that's signed electronically rather than physically. I think another thing to note is that the other party is ASKING your bank/credit issuer to debit. The transaction can be stopped if not approved. Normally I see the argument for crypto being that this helps merchants by avoiding charge backs, etc.
- bluecalm 5y ago
  I often notice this expressed by Americans. I can't remember last time I gave my debit card (why would anyone need a credit card anyway) to any party other than big companies like PayPal. Locally I pay with Blik (I have to confirm exact amount transferred on my phone and the seller doesn't have an option to extract/ask for more). If a company really wants a card I create a virtual, load it up with a chosen small amount and get rid of it when I no longer need it. We also have instant bank transfers if needed (normal ones take several hours). Even with debit cards you have 3D secure these days which requires confirmation on your phone. Just because USA is behind in banking department and even credit/debit card thing doesn't mean those problems are especially hard to solve. The rest of the world is already partially there and with more fintechs putting pressure on banks things will improve even more.
- mrep 5y ago
  My citi card offers virtual 1 time use numbers [0] and comes with all the normal benefits that you get from credit cards. Also, you are trusting that the person you are sending money to honors their agreement as there is no intermediary to dispute transactional claims. [0]: https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-Numbers https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-N...

arcticbull 5y ago

> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. > Also, you're right. POW as a consensus method is flawed. But again, all V3 cryptos have essentially transitioned to delegated proof of stake at this point. I honestly don't know enough about "V3 cryptos" to speak to it, and I'm not trying to add any FUD to the conversation :) I'll have to DMOR if you will before I can speak to that, which is why I've been constraining my comments to the system I know (BTC). > Edit: There are 104 protocols/coins that have over $1B market cap. Value isn't a personal judgement, it's a group one. [edit] Market cap isn't a judgement of value, just the most recent price multiplied by supply. Control the most recent price, you control the market cap. Unless you include legitimate market depth it's not really a meaningful number. SHIB for instance.

jkhdigital 5y ago
> Since you asked, yes. I do. To me, it's like asking if a beehive will always have a queen. It's in our DNA. Not the asker, but thank you for answering this--it goes a long way toward understanding where your arguments are coming from.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  Places without a functional government have a history of doing pretty poorly. I think the burden of proof that there is a possible future without government lies on those making that claim. That burden has definitely not been met and the thus the feverent belied in that claim by cryptocurrency bulls is not rational.
  - jkhdigital 5y ago
    This is kind of a straw man… while I’m sure there are some fringe John McAfee-types who think crypto is the door to anarcho-capitalism, I don’t take any of them seriously. So I’m not sure who you’re directing your argument towards.
  - momo_O 5y ago

jkhdigital 5y ago

> POW as a consensus method is flawed. It's not flawed, just hardcore. It's like the gold bars sitting in vaults deep underground in London, rarely moved and usually just relabeled to account for change in ownership. Every now and then someone gets spooked and asks to take custody, and it's expensive as hell to move it but you can lay your hands on it and know your ownership is secure.

RustyConsul 5y ago
lol - the cyberpunk future we never saw coming.

neatze 5y ago

> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? As long there is scarcity of resources, there will be wars/conflicts and humans will be collective species, even if we don't have scarcity of resources, some humans will invent a few, and even if humans will not invent one, it is debatable since I don't know of any evidence where humans can survive individually. This is without mentioning social classes over multiple generations.

jcranmer 5y ago

> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? > Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, without owing fealty, taxes and morality to a government in some future? Without governments, how are social strictures enforced? How are externalities, positive or negative, accounted for? How does a government-less world not look like Somalia? (Or are you suggesting that you really would like to live in a place like Somalia?) This isn't to suggest that existing governments are perfect (far from it), but it seems to me that the anarchic counterpart is infinitely worse.

ottomatias 5y ago
Fun fact: Somalia seemed to do a lot better without government than with a government. (though of course it's not simple) https://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf https://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

creeble 5y ago

And once again, we arrive at the real definition of cryptocurrency: It's not a currency, or financial system, it's a counterpoint to democracy.

SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
Good, a bit of competition works out better for the end user. Political systems tend to be a monopoly, and monopolies lend themselves to abusive practices.

pcwalton 5y ago

> Do you think we will forever be organized and segregated by governments? > Do you ever think a human being can be a sovereign individual in his own right, without owing fealty, taxes and morality to a government in some future? All of this is doing nothing to change my view that cryptocurrency requires me to buy into this whole weird worldview in a way that few other products do. No, I don't particularly want to be an anarcho-capitalist.

jcranmer 5y ago
I think I liked your previous phrasing better: > I really would like to see a defense of Bitcoin that doesn't rest on the assumption that I want to live in Galt's Gulch.