10 ms·

Your proposal is to fire fat people from their jobs because they pose a risk to.... others? In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, wh

Your proposal is to fire fat people from their jobs because they pose a risk to.... others? In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, which means you're not doing it just for yourself but also for the person who's working next to you. That's why people are getting terminated.

miles 5y ago
> In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, which means you're not doing it just for yourself but the person who's working next to you. 9/23/2021: 99.7% of Waterford adults fully vaccinated against Covid-19 https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html 10/11/2021: Waterford Now Has Highest Incidence of Covid in Ireland https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highest-incidence-of-covid-in-ireland/ https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highe... Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 Covid cases hit records in South Korea and Singapore despite widespread vaccinations https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-records-in-south-korea-and-singapore-despite-widespread-vaccinations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-rec... Chile sees Covid surge despite vaccination success https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801 World's Most Vaccinated Nation Is Spooked by Covid Spike https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/business/economy/covid-seychelles-sinopharm.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/business/economy/covid-se... Vermont sees the biggest surge in COVID cases despite having the country's highest vaccination rate https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccination-rate/ https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccinati... Iceland has been a vaccination success. Why is it seeing a coronavirus surge? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-su... Nearly 60% of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in Israel fully vaccinated, data shows https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-6... Virus surge hits New England despite high vaccination rates https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-pandemics-vermont-d25aae90b2dda65b3d1c2c0d5d00156c https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-pande...
- sleavey 5y ago
  A few more: Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v... Covid-19: Fully vaccinated people can carry as much delta virus as unvaccinated people, data indicate https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074 https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074 No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v...
- nostrebored 5y ago
  It’s very interesting seeing doctors around me start to adopt the opinion that vaccines are effectively useless. I’ve talked to numerous doctors working in hospitals here who say that media publicity about the unvaccinated prevalence in their icus is bullshit.
  - eclipxe 5y ago
    It's hard to imagine doctors around you adopting the opinion that vaccines are useless. Because they're not.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Sadly, it's a moving target. After a number of months VE against infection falls off a cliff. VE against severe infection has decreased some 10%, but has not fell off a cliff. I don't know what the future will bring, I'm keeping a nervous eye on the situation. That Israel and FDA/CDC are clearly pushing for boosters is definitely not helping increase the confidence. They are in a much better position to glimpse at the future, and have decided for reasons they are not candidly sharing with the public that the vaccines as-is are not sufficient.
    - nostrebored 5y ago
      Vaccines and COVID prevalence are statistically uncorrelated. Does that seem like the mark of an effective vaccine?
nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but over the long run it does very little to protect the person who's working next to you. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- greesil 5y ago
  Great link. I read it. The body of work is not conclusive. Yes we need boosters, according to the CDC so I guess that makes sense. But, have you heard of herd immunity?
  - nradov 5y ago
    The research is quite conclusive. You might want to read it again. I have heard of herd immunity. Unfortunately because the vaccines aren't really sterilizing and the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect those who lack immunity. Over the long run we'll all be exposed to the virus multiple times no matter what we do. That's why I recommend that everyone eligible get vaccinated to protect themselves against severe symptoms.
    - greesil 5y ago
      The paper was conclusive but the BODY of work does not in the majority agree, given the link. There is no consensus, yet. Also, "The study has not yet been peer reviewed" so maybe take it with a grain of salt. Is your latter conclusion re herd immunity being impossible supported by the literature, or at least a mathematical model? If R0 goes below zero the community is protected. The vaccinated fraction might have to be large in order for this to happen, but that's also the case for the measles. You're stating that it doesn't matter what this fraction is, even if one person isn't vaccinated they're eventually going to get infected.
      - sleavey 5y ago
throwawaylinux 5y ago
Overweight people put a huge strain on the healthcare system, maybe 30% of the entire health expenditure in the USA can be attributed to obesity. Which creates shortages and drives up costs for others who need it. So yes, overweight people should be banned from civil society (and certainly restaurants) because the risk of them catching covid and causing even more strain on the healthcare system would be very bad even if they are vaccinated. Not until they get low risk and effective gastric bypass surgery at least. It's for the greater good. That is to say, I don't believe such a horrific, dystopian, nasty, bullying attitude as this, but I can see how people who believe the unvaccinated should be given the same treatment for the alleged greater good would also think this about overweight people if they were to be logically consistent in their positions.
- greesil 5y ago
  Unless there's an obesity spike that takes up all the ICU beds in a region (doughnut sale or something) your argument makes no sense.
  - ButtSpark69 5y ago
    His point is that being fat and being unvaccinated both increase the risk society bears that you will a) give someone else covid and/or b) use hospital resources.
    - greesil 5y ago
      I understand TP's point. It's nonsensical because he's comparing twinkies to eclairs. They're superficially similar but are in reality vastly different things.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Yes, obese people are vastly worse for society than the unvaccinated in terms of financial costs. The solution is even simpler than getting a vaccine because they don't have to go anywhere. They simply have to eat less.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> Your proposal is to fire fat people from their jobs because they pose a risk to.... others? Responses like this are sadly typical. What is your aim? To shoot down a legitimate discussion of risk factors like obesity and poor cardiovascular health, which are disturbingly common in the US? Calling into question the sanity of firing large numbers of unvaccinated people, many of whom will have natural immunity, is not a proposal to fire fat people. What is your purpose for trying to suggest that it is? > In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, which means you're not doing it just for yourself but also for the person who's working next to you. I recognize the value of vaccines and traveled halfway around the world to get vaccinated thank you very much. But the COVID vaccines are not sterilizing. The data shows that they can reduce transmission of the virus, which is great, but this effect has very real limits that it is dishonest to overlook given what we know today. Case in point: a new UK study found that, per the BBC, "individuals who have had two vaccine doses can be just as infectious as those who have not been jabbed"[1]. In the study, a vaccinated index case transmitted the virus to unvaccinated household members 38% of the time to vaccinated household members 25% of the time. That's a meaningful reduction but not anywhere near enough reduction to pretend that vaccination is a panacea for stopping transmission. Finally, your comment totally ignores the part of my comment that mentioned natural immunity, which the science increasingly says is robust, strong and lasting[2]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 [2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
- greesil 5y ago
  My aim is to point out the absurdity of comparing obesity vaccination and viral transmission. Herd immunity? One of my responders says that's impossible and the only way to be safe is get vaccinated. You are essentially saying "hey just let it happen no vaccination needed". What is a HN reader to make of these contrasting viewpoints? How about this given current public health guidelines? Get vaccinated, or stop complaining when us vaccinated want to deny you entry. Wear a mask, or also be denied access. The difference between obesity and a deadly virus is that the deadly virus is directly and immediately affecting me by your choices. I can pay higher health insurance premiums, but I don't want to die.
m0zg 5y ago
I don't know what their proposal was, but replace "fat" with "unvaccinated" in your response and you'll see what they (likely) were getting at. The logic of "you must get vaccinated to protect the vaccinated" eludes me, since I thought the vaccinated are already protected from severe disease (though crucially not from infection or transmission) irrespective of anyone else's vaccination status. Full disclosure: I'm overweight. 14kg down from where I was a year ago, with another 10kg or so to go. I'm baffled that NIH/CDC said literally nothing about this issue as it relates to COVID since the beginning of the pandemic. One would think 18+ months is a sufficient amount of time to lose at least some weight, and thereby reduce the risk.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

miles 5y ago

> In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, which means you're not doing it just for yourself but the person who's working next to you. 9/23/2021: 99.7% of Waterford adults fully vaccinated against Covid-19 https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html 10/11/2021: Waterford Now Has Highest Incidence of Covid in Ireland https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highest-incidence-of-covid-in-ireland/ https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highe... Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7 Covid cases hit records in South Korea and Singapore despite widespread vaccinations https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-records-in-south-korea-and-singapore-despite-widespread-vaccinations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-rec... Chile sees Covid surge despite vaccination success https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56731801 World's Most Vaccinated Nation Is Spooked by Covid Spike https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/business/economy/covid-seychelles-sinopharm.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/business/economy/covid-se... Vermont sees the biggest surge in COVID cases despite having the country's highest vaccination rate https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccination-rate/ https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccinati... Iceland has been a vaccination success. Why is it seeing a coronavirus surge? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-surge-vaccines/2021/08/14/bdd88d04-fabd-11eb-911c-524bc8b68f17_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-su... Nearly 60% of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in Israel fully vaccinated, data shows https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-6... Virus surge hits New England despite high vaccination rates https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-pandemics-vermont-d25aae90b2dda65b3d1c2c0d5d00156c https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-pande...

sleavey 5y ago
A few more: Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v... Covid-19: Fully vaccinated people can carry as much delta virus as unvaccinated people, data indicate https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074 https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074 No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v...
nostrebored 5y ago
It’s very interesting seeing doctors around me start to adopt the opinion that vaccines are effectively useless. I’ve talked to numerous doctors working in hospitals here who say that media publicity about the unvaccinated prevalence in their icus is bullshit.
- eclipxe 5y ago
  It's hard to imagine doctors around you adopting the opinion that vaccines are useless. Because they're not.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Sadly, it's a moving target. After a number of months VE against infection falls off a cliff. VE against severe infection has decreased some 10%, but has not fell off a cliff. I don't know what the future will bring, I'm keeping a nervous eye on the situation. That Israel and FDA/CDC are clearly pushing for boosters is definitely not helping increase the confidence. They are in a much better position to glimpse at the future, and have decided for reasons they are not candidly sharing with the public that the vaccines as-is are not sufficient.
  - nostrebored 5y ago
    Vaccines and COVID prevalence are statistically uncorrelated. Does that seem like the mark of an effective vaccine?

nradov 5y ago

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but over the long run it does very little to protect the person who's working next to you. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...

greesil 5y ago
Great link. I read it. The body of work is not conclusive. Yes we need boosters, according to the CDC so I guess that makes sense. But, have you heard of herd immunity?
- nradov 5y ago
  The research is quite conclusive. You might want to read it again. I have heard of herd immunity. Unfortunately because the vaccines aren't really sterilizing and the Delta variant is so contagious there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect those who lack immunity. Over the long run we'll all be exposed to the virus multiple times no matter what we do. That's why I recommend that everyone eligible get vaccinated to protect themselves against severe symptoms.
  - greesil 5y ago
    The paper was conclusive but the BODY of work does not in the majority agree, given the link. There is no consensus, yet. Also, "The study has not yet been peer reviewed" so maybe take it with a grain of salt. Is your latter conclusion re herd immunity being impossible supported by the literature, or at least a mathematical model? If R0 goes below zero the community is protected. The vaccinated fraction might have to be large in order for this to happen, but that's also the case for the measles. You're stating that it doesn't matter what this fraction is, even if one person isn't vaccinated they're eventually going to get infected.
    - sleavey 5y ago

throwawaylinux 5y ago

Overweight people put a huge strain on the healthcare system, maybe 30% of the entire health expenditure in the USA can be attributed to obesity. Which creates shortages and drives up costs for others who need it. So yes, overweight people should be banned from civil society (and certainly restaurants) because the risk of them catching covid and causing even more strain on the healthcare system would be very bad even if they are vaccinated. Not until they get low risk and effective gastric bypass surgery at least. It's for the greater good. That is to say, I don't believe such a horrific, dystopian, nasty, bullying attitude as this, but I can see how people who believe the unvaccinated should be given the same treatment for the alleged greater good would also think this about overweight people if they were to be logically consistent in their positions.

greesil 5y ago
Unless there's an obesity spike that takes up all the ICU beds in a region (doughnut sale or something) your argument makes no sense.
- ButtSpark69 5y ago
  His point is that being fat and being unvaccinated both increase the risk society bears that you will a) give someone else covid and/or b) use hospital resources.
  - greesil 5y ago
    I understand TP's point. It's nonsensical because he's comparing twinkies to eclairs. They're superficially similar but are in reality vastly different things.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Yes, obese people are vastly worse for society than the unvaccinated in terms of financial costs. The solution is even simpler than getting a vaccine because they don't have to go anywhere. They simply have to eat less.

LurkingPenguin 5y ago

> Your proposal is to fire fat people from their jobs because they pose a risk to.... others? Responses like this are sadly typical. What is your aim? To shoot down a legitimate discussion of risk factors like obesity and poor cardiovascular health, which are disturbingly common in the US? Calling into question the sanity of firing large numbers of unvaccinated people, many of whom will have natural immunity, is not a proposal to fire fat people. What is your purpose for trying to suggest that it is? > In seriousness, the whole point of vaccination is public health, which means you're not doing it just for yourself but also for the person who's working next to you. I recognize the value of vaccines and traveled halfway around the world to get vaccinated thank you very much. But the COVID vaccines are not sterilizing. The data shows that they can reduce transmission of the virus, which is great, but this effect has very real limits that it is dishonest to overlook given what we know today. Case in point: a new UK study found that, per the BBC, "individuals who have had two vaccine doses can be just as infectious as those who have not been jabbed"[1]. In the study, a vaccinated index case transmitted the virus to unvaccinated household members 38% of the time to vaccinated household members 25% of the time. That's a meaningful reduction but not anywhere near enough reduction to pretend that vaccination is a panacea for stopping transmission. Finally, your comment totally ignores the part of my comment that mentioned natural immunity, which the science increasingly says is robust, strong and lasting[2]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036 [2] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...

greesil 5y ago
My aim is to point out the absurdity of comparing obesity vaccination and viral transmission. Herd immunity? One of my responders says that's impossible and the only way to be safe is get vaccinated. You are essentially saying "hey just let it happen no vaccination needed". What is a HN reader to make of these contrasting viewpoints? How about this given current public health guidelines? Get vaccinated, or stop complaining when us vaccinated want to deny you entry. Wear a mask, or also be denied access. The difference between obesity and a deadly virus is that the deadly virus is directly and immediately affecting me by your choices. I can pay higher health insurance premiums, but I don't want to die.

m0zg 5y ago

I don't know what their proposal was, but replace "fat" with "unvaccinated" in your response and you'll see what they (likely) were getting at. The logic of "you must get vaccinated to protect the vaccinated" eludes me, since I thought the vaccinated are already protected from severe disease (though crucially not from infection or transmission) irrespective of anyone else's vaccination status. Full disclosure: I'm overweight. 14kg down from where I was a year ago, with another 10kg or so to go. I'm baffled that NIH/CDC said literally nothing about this issue as it relates to COVID since the beginning of the pandemic. One would think 18+ months is a sufficient amount of time to lose at least some weight, and thereby reduce the risk.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]