7 ms·

It seems likely I'm misunderstanding something, or are you suggesting that C. elegans has a soul?

beaconstudios 5y ago
I think they're talking about just the worm moving, rather than also simulating the worm's CNS/mind.
tantalor 5y ago
I mean simulating muscle contractions treats it like a clockwork machine; that's not very impressive. If you go deeper you can look at internals of cells, metabolism, chemical energy, protein interactions. That's how the worm works. This is like simulating a computer by using a model of RAM and CPU, when you really need to model electricity & magnetism (and stray gamma rays) for a true simulation.
- byteofmydream 5y ago
  And sometimes it's enough to simulate on the level of api's to get same results
- mshroyer 5y ago
  Ah I see... so it sounds like I misunderstood. You're calling for a higher-fidelity physical model, not something metaphysical :) I still think it's impressive if we can get a decent-fidelity model of C. elegans behavior at the project's current level of abstraction. I wonder how much behavioral difference we'd see from a lower level of simulation? After all, you can do a lot with a "RAM and CPU" level simulation of a computer...
- koziserek 5y ago
  But.. Do you need electrons and gamma ray model to simulate fully your old Amiga games on PC?
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    I think the example is not great. The problem is not that we could be doing better, but rather that without a more granular view, the model will simply not work. More like trying to model the pixels on a screen without accessing the underlying program that's making decisions on what to show.
meowface 5y ago
On that topic: it can't necessarily be ruled out that they might have a soul. (In the sense of possessing consciousness.) Less likely the fewer degrees of freedom you have, and certainly seems like a long shot for ~300 neurons, but we don't know where the lines may be drawn and we may not know for a very long time.
- mshroyer 5y ago
  I'm noncommittal toward the prospect that a C. elegans might be conscious (though I doubt it). But here I was using "soul" to mean something metaphysical, requiring something beyond the physical configuration of those ~300 neurons to explain.
  - BarryMilo 5y ago
    Worm soul would be a good name for a band though.
    - dunefox 5y ago
      Worm Soul - Shai Hulud
  - joeberon 5y ago
    It's impossible to really rule out such a thing but at the same time I don't think there's any way we can understand how to actually simulate or even identify that.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  A soul is not simply consciousness. A soul usually means some non-physical entity that can exist independently from the physical body (e.g. when you die). Pure nonsense of course.
  - joeberon 5y ago
    How do you know it is pure nonsense? We actually have no scientific evidence either way. There is a reason why discussing the "hard problem of consciousness" is so popular. There are many people now advocating for a universal consciousness, i.e. that all space time has intrinsically a mind-like element that is merely "tapped into" by physical bodies. It's foolish to pretend that it's a solved problem when it's not. At the present moment we don't actually have a solid idea either way.

I think they're talking about just the worm moving, rather than also simulating the worm's CNS/mind.

I mean simulating muscle contractions treats it like a clockwork machine; that's not very impressive. If you go deeper you can look at internals of cells, metabolism, chemical energy, protein interactions. That's how the worm works. This is like simulating a computer by using a model of RAM and CPU, when you really need to model electricity & magnetism (and stray gamma rays) for a true simulation.

byteofmydream 5y ago
And sometimes it's enough to simulate on the level of api's to get same results
mshroyer 5y ago
Ah I see... so it sounds like I misunderstood. You're calling for a higher-fidelity physical model, not something metaphysical :) I still think it's impressive if we can get a decent-fidelity model of C. elegans behavior at the project's current level of abstraction. I wonder how much behavioral difference we'd see from a lower level of simulation? After all, you can do a lot with a "RAM and CPU" level simulation of a computer...
koziserek 5y ago
But.. Do you need electrons and gamma ray model to simulate fully your old Amiga games on PC?
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  I think the example is not great. The problem is not that we could be doing better, but rather that without a more granular view, the model will simply not work. More like trying to model the pixels on a screen without accessing the underlying program that's making decisions on what to show.

meowface 5y ago

On that topic: it can't necessarily be ruled out that they might have a soul. (In the sense of possessing consciousness.) Less likely the fewer degrees of freedom you have, and certainly seems like a long shot for ~300 neurons, but we don't know where the lines may be drawn and we may not know for a very long time.

mshroyer 5y ago
I'm noncommittal toward the prospect that a C. elegans might be conscious (though I doubt it). But here I was using "soul" to mean something metaphysical, requiring something beyond the physical configuration of those ~300 neurons to explain.
- BarryMilo 5y ago
  Worm soul would be a good name for a band though.
  - dunefox 5y ago
    Worm Soul - Shai Hulud
- joeberon 5y ago
  It's impossible to really rule out such a thing but at the same time I don't think there's any way we can understand how to actually simulate or even identify that.
IshKebab 5y ago
A soul is not simply consciousness. A soul usually means some non-physical entity that can exist independently from the physical body (e.g. when you die). Pure nonsense of course.
- joeberon 5y ago
  How do you know it is pure nonsense? We actually have no scientific evidence either way. There is a reason why discussing the "hard problem of consciousness" is so popular. There are many people now advocating for a universal consciousness, i.e. that all space time has intrinsically a mind-like element that is merely "tapped into" by physical bodies. It's foolish to pretend that it's a solved problem when it's not. At the present moment we don't actually have a solid idea either way.