13 ms·

I'd like to point out that helium is used in science for many applications. For example, the superconducting magnets in MRI machines are cooled by helium. Since

I'd like to point out that helium is used in science for many applications. For example, the superconducting magnets in MRI machines are cooled by helium. Since it is not renewable and escapes from the atmosphere easily, we should conserve it, and probably not use it for party balloons.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nradov 5y ago
Helium is semi renewable. More is constantly created by underground decay of radioactive isotopes. But we're probably using it up faster. Regardless of helium supplies, party balloons are problematic because they tend to escape and contaminate the environment with rubber and plastic. I frequently see empty mylar balloons floating in the ocean.
- Retric 5y ago
  Oil and Helium are both replaced on geologic timescales their effectively a constant in terms of human lifespans. You can estimate decay rates from net heat generated by the earth, but only a tiny fraction of the helium produced is close enough to the surface to be captured by us. On top of this helium is really good at escaping confinement so you need very specific geological formations to end up with significant quantities.
- queuebert 5y ago
  Thanks for the correction. I ignored decay products because it is a very small rate. Anyway, if we're invoking physics, the Sun harbors a very large reservoir of He. ;-)
  - perilunar 5y ago
    As do the gas and ice giants.
    - queuebert 5y ago
      Yeah, but it's all under control of the OPA.
- mrtnmcc 5y ago
  And they arc out power lines and cause forest fires..
prox 5y ago
Honestly we should ban helium for frivolous use.
- mbil 5y ago
  incredibly high voice And what exactly counts as "frivolous"?
  - prox 5y ago
    Well, Party balloons for one :)
derekdahmer 5y ago
I was curious about this so given some numbers I found on the internet, an average MRI machine has about 1700 liters of liquid helium capacity and loses 48% of its helium over the course of a year. 1 liter of liquid helium expands to .74m^3 of gaseous helium at room temperature. A 16" party balloon has .042 m^3 of space, so requires .05 liters of liquid helium. So one MRI machine can hold ~30,000 balloons worth of helium and leaks about 39 balloons per day. Note: This is not to suggest helium that is used for balloons is being redirected from MRI machines. As the article states, helium is captured almost exclusively as a byproduct of natural gas mining and any excess helium not worth capturing is just vented off. Reducing demand for helium by eliminating party balloons would have no affect on the amount of helium that is released from the ground.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Well, sorta. If the helium is worth a lot, you’ll try to drill/pump the wells that have a lot of it. If/when it’s not, you might slow down on the helium-rich gas fields and bulk up on the 100% hydrocarbon fields, especially if natural gas is selling for a lot.
p1mrx 5y ago
Parties are more fun with hydrogen, in any case. ... or a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen+oxygen: https://youtu.be/l9CI6KSV560?t=1625 https://youtu.be/l9CI6KSV560?t=1625
actually_a_dog 5y ago
Most definitely. Interestingly enough, Google told me there are only 14 gasses that are lighter than air. They are: * acetylene * ammonia * carbon monoxide * diborane * ethylene * helium * hydrogen * hydrogen cyanide * hydrogen fluoride * methane * methyl lithium * neon * nitrogen * water vapor Wiki lists most of them at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas , although it leaves out ethylene, methyl lithium, and diborane for some reason. It also doesn't explicitly list carbon monoxide, but talks about it under "coal gas." Of those, only hydrogen and helium are even vaguely suitable for party balloons, due primarily to their nasty chemical properties and/or expense.
- Y_Y 5y ago
  I used hydrogen cyanide for the balloons at my birthday party, and I didn't hear anyone complaining afterwards. Bear in mind that it boils/condenses at about 26C, so it's only suitable for parties with lots of dancing or warm summer nights.
  - dr_dshiv 5y ago
    > I used hydrogen cyanide for the balloons at my birthday party, and I didn't hear anyone complaining afterwards Wow, that got dark quickly.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      I like a similar joke that goes: Give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. Less similar, but another classic of dark humor, is the poster of Stalin captioned: Dark humor is like food. Not everyone gets it.
    - lazide 5y ago
      Way darker than my acetylene joke, that’s for sure
- umvi 5y ago
  Why not nitrogen?
elihu 5y ago
I wonder if that's going to continue to be the case with MRI machines? Some newer high-temperature superconductors (for instance ReBCO tape) don't need to be kept quite that cold. Eventually I'd expect machines based on newer materials to replace the old machines, unless there's some compelling reason why the helium-cooled machines are fundamentally better. (I do agree we should conserve it rather than use it for frivolous purposes.)
- pfdietz 5y ago
  I suspect the real value proposition from that MIT fusion spinoff is not fusion reactors, but high Tc superconducting magnets for non-fusion applications like MRI (or, perhaps, hybrid electric aircraft). These could be cooled with neon instead of helium, and neon is available forever as a byproduct of air separation plants.
BayAreaEscapee 5y ago
It seems to me that the market would eventually correct this. If it cost $100 to fill a party balloon with helium, people would stop filling party balloons with helium and people working in scientific applications would have plenty of helium at that price point.
blululu 5y ago
While I completely agree that waste is inexcusable and helium is really important there are many grades of helium and they are basically all industrial biproducts. The stuff at parties is mostly air and unsuitable for most scientific applications (checking leaks with a mass spec in a vacuum system is one of the few). Even the high grade welding/scientific stuff is little more than a biproduct of natural gas extraction. The value of helium recovered from a well is essentially nil compared to the natural gas, so it’s conservation is not really possible since there is no real market force regulating supply (we would basically need to restrict natural gas consumption to nil, which is a good idea long term but not really feasible for civilization at the current stage.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nradov 5y ago

Helium is semi renewable. More is constantly created by underground decay of radioactive isotopes. But we're probably using it up faster. Regardless of helium supplies, party balloons are problematic because they tend to escape and contaminate the environment with rubber and plastic. I frequently see empty mylar balloons floating in the ocean.

Retric 5y ago
Oil and Helium are both replaced on geologic timescales their effectively a constant in terms of human lifespans. You can estimate decay rates from net heat generated by the earth, but only a tiny fraction of the helium produced is close enough to the surface to be captured by us. On top of this helium is really good at escaping confinement so you need very specific geological formations to end up with significant quantities.
queuebert 5y ago
Thanks for the correction. I ignored decay products because it is a very small rate. Anyway, if we're invoking physics, the Sun harbors a very large reservoir of He. ;-)
- perilunar 5y ago
  As do the gas and ice giants.
  - queuebert 5y ago
    Yeah, but it's all under control of the OPA.
mrtnmcc 5y ago
And they arc out power lines and cause forest fires..

prox 5y ago

Honestly we should ban helium for frivolous use.

mbil 5y ago
incredibly high voice And what exactly counts as "frivolous"?
- prox 5y ago
  Well, Party balloons for one :)

derekdahmer 5y ago

I was curious about this so given some numbers I found on the internet, an average MRI machine has about 1700 liters of liquid helium capacity and loses 48% of its helium over the course of a year. 1 liter of liquid helium expands to .74m^3 of gaseous helium at room temperature. A 16" party balloon has .042 m^3 of space, so requires .05 liters of liquid helium. So one MRI machine can hold ~30,000 balloons worth of helium and leaks about 39 balloons per day. Note: This is not to suggest helium that is used for balloons is being redirected from MRI machines. As the article states, helium is captured almost exclusively as a byproduct of natural gas mining and any excess helium not worth capturing is just vented off. Reducing demand for helium by eliminating party balloons would have no affect on the amount of helium that is released from the ground.

Scoundreller 5y ago
Well, sorta. If the helium is worth a lot, you’ll try to drill/pump the wells that have a lot of it. If/when it’s not, you might slow down on the helium-rich gas fields and bulk up on the 100% hydrocarbon fields, especially if natural gas is selling for a lot.

p1mrx 5y ago

Parties are more fun with hydrogen, in any case. ... or a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen+oxygen: https://youtu.be/l9CI6KSV560?t=1625 https://youtu.be/l9CI6KSV560?t=1625

actually_a_dog 5y ago

Most definitely. Interestingly enough, Google told me there are only 14 gasses that are lighter than air. They are: * acetylene * ammonia * carbon monoxide * diborane * ethylene * helium * hydrogen * hydrogen cyanide * hydrogen fluoride * methane * methyl lithium * neon * nitrogen * water vapor Wiki lists most of them at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifting_gas , although it leaves out ethylene, methyl lithium, and diborane for some reason. It also doesn't explicitly list carbon monoxide, but talks about it under "coal gas." Of those, only hydrogen and helium are even vaguely suitable for party balloons, due primarily to their nasty chemical properties and/or expense.

Y_Y 5y ago
I used hydrogen cyanide for the balloons at my birthday party, and I didn't hear anyone complaining afterwards. Bear in mind that it boils/condenses at about 26C, so it's only suitable for parties with lots of dancing or warm summer nights.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  > I used hydrogen cyanide for the balloons at my birthday party, and I didn't hear anyone complaining afterwards Wow, that got dark quickly.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    I like a similar joke that goes: Give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. Less similar, but another classic of dark humor, is the poster of Stalin captioned: Dark humor is like food. Not everyone gets it.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Way darker than my acetylene joke, that’s for sure
umvi 5y ago
Why not nitrogen?

elihu 5y ago

I wonder if that's going to continue to be the case with MRI machines? Some newer high-temperature superconductors (for instance ReBCO tape) don't need to be kept quite that cold. Eventually I'd expect machines based on newer materials to replace the old machines, unless there's some compelling reason why the helium-cooled machines are fundamentally better. (I do agree we should conserve it rather than use it for frivolous purposes.)

pfdietz 5y ago
I suspect the real value proposition from that MIT fusion spinoff is not fusion reactors, but high Tc superconducting magnets for non-fusion applications like MRI (or, perhaps, hybrid electric aircraft). These could be cooled with neon instead of helium, and neon is available forever as a byproduct of air separation plants.

BayAreaEscapee 5y ago

It seems to me that the market would eventually correct this. If it cost $100 to fill a party balloon with helium, people would stop filling party balloons with helium and people working in scientific applications would have plenty of helium at that price point.

blululu 5y ago

While I completely agree that waste is inexcusable and helium is really important there are many grades of helium and they are basically all industrial biproducts. The stuff at parties is mostly air and unsuitable for most scientific applications (checking leaks with a mass spec in a vacuum system is one of the few). Even the high grade welding/scientific stuff is little more than a biproduct of natural gas extraction. The value of helium recovered from a well is essentially nil compared to the natural gas, so it’s conservation is not really possible since there is no real market force regulating supply (we would basically need to restrict natural gas consumption to nil, which is a good idea long term but not really feasible for civilization at the current stage.