7 ms·

Glad to hear about this. I sued Facebook in a California small-claims court to rescind my purchase of the Quest 1 (and all accessories and game purchases) after

by sowbug 5y ago

Glad to hear about this. I sued Facebook in a California small-claims court to rescind my purchase of the Quest 1 (and all accessories and game purchases) after I declined the change in ToS adding the FB account requirement. It took a while (negotiated with their customer support, then sued, then finally months later got an intelligent response), but we settled for what I asked for. I can't be the only one who got my money back. I liked the product except for the added account requirement, and I would now consider buying again.

schaefer 5y ago
You are my hero.
djbusby 5y ago
Curious how much time you spent and total time to resolve. Can you share?
- sowbug 5y ago
  I used to practice law, so the process is a little more natural for me. Summary: 1. I read the terms of service that I originally agreed to. Found a requirement to first negotiate any dispute with their general counsel in good faith. So I wrote to them explaining that I declined the change in ToS terms, and asked for a refund of everything I'd purchased in connection with the headset, plus the dollar amount that it added up to. Sent by registered mail. Waited a few months, got no response. This was summer 2020. 2. Filed a support ticket basically saying the same thing. I got very prompt responses but of course they were templates -- sorry, 30-day return window has expired, please create FB account, etc. 3. Drafted up the small-claims complaint. This is actually a very easy and short form in California. 4. Sent a courtesy copy of the complaint to Oculus general counsel. This can sometimes get their attention and resolve things right away without involving the courts. No response. 5. Filed the complaint, then served Oculus/FB at their Sacramento address for their registered agent for service of process. This cost something like $100 (filing + service). 6. Got a summer 2021 court date. 7. Sent them another courtesy reminder that the court date was approaching and asked to resolve before trial. 8. In the late spring of 2021 got some activity on the support ticket saying sorry for the delay, please dismiss the case, we'll send you the $$$ plus a box to ship back the goggles. 9. I accepted their offer, shipped the stuff back, got the $$$, and filed a dismissal of the case. Total wall clock time > 1 year. Actual human time on the case probably 5 hours. Out of pocket expenses about $100, which I added to the settlement demand, and which they paid. So I ended up back where I started before the Oculus Quest purchase, except for the time I lost writing the court papers and support/legal communications. Which is what I wanted and expected. As I hope you can tell, I wasn't angry or out for revenge. I just didn't want the FB account requirement, and I especially didn't like that they tried to change the contract terms after we had a deal. It was just a business deal to me, and that takes pretty much all the emotion out of it, which can make many legal cases easier to resolve.
  - djbusby 5y ago
    Awesome and detailed response. Appreciate you taking the time.
  - Cpoll 5y ago
    What's the worst-case scenario here? What would have happened if they met you in court? What would have happened if they won?
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      It would have cost the company thousands in legal fees, subjected the company to wide-ranging interrogation under oath and the case entered in public records. It's the latter two that really gets their attention, as a customer dispute escalated into the business affairs of the top of the company where there's actual consequences. For him, some time and possibility of dismissal.
    - sowbug 5y ago
      Here's where I'd suggest hiring a real lawyer (currently practicing as a litigator in California) for an assessment, but here's my guess. Worst case is I lose in court, which is just wasted time and $100. There's no further downside than that, since they didn't countersue (and couldn't have). In that case, I'd keep my goggles and have the choice whether to throw them away, sell them, or suck it up and do the Facebook account thing. Or wait until today and learn that they'd dropped the requirement.
hairofadog 5y ago
I'm a little fuzzy on why people are upset at the idea of linking their Oculus devices to a Facebook account, but not to a Meta or Oculus account, which are surely part of the same data ecosystem. Genuinely asking, is there some reason to expect less – I don't know, zuckerberginess – from Meta or Oculus than from Facebook?
- tomc1985 5y ago
  Why do we need an account anyway?? How about ... no accounts.
- nickthegreek 5y ago
  If your facebook account gets banned for some reason, you would lose your entire paid game library and would not be able to use the hardware you spent your cash on.
  - nsxwolf 5y ago
    Now your Meta account can get banned for some reason. I assume the ToS will be very similar. It's a platform, you can say things on it, you can potentially abuse people on it. There may come a day where the world is utterly broken for the unaugmented, just a confusing sterile landscape camouflaged in QR codes. Getting kicked off the Metaverse will be a terrifying form of exile. But it will all be a private company's decision, so that will make it OK.
    - 14 5y ago
      It is still better to keep as many accounts separate as possible. At least right now if you get banned from Facebook your google account doesn’t get banned also. And though I have never been banned from Facebook I wouldn’t want to tie real life game purchases to a social media account where saying the wrong thing might end you up in trouble. Hard pass.
      - Liquix 5y ago
        Not being banned is nice, but keeping your accounts separate does nothing to prevent the data points you mentioned being linked, especially within the Meta ecosystem. Even outside of the ecosystem, there are billion dollar companies that are very very good at tying together all your 'unrelated' accounts/data points and selling these packages to the highest bidder. It's prudent to assume that big brother and anyone else who cared enough to look could link said activity to you.
Diederich 5y ago
Agree with the other reply to you: I'd love to hear more about the nuts and bolts of this if you have a few spare minutes!
greggman3 5y ago
I bought a Quest 2, three weeks ago. Tried to set it up. Already have a Rift S with an Oculus account. To use the Quest 2 required me to switch my Oculus account to FB. (Not gonna happen). I tried 8 times to create a new FB account, it failed the first 7 (no idea why, nothing about the data I entered was strange). When it finally worked the device would not pair with my iPhone6S+ (which I used as it's on a different Apple account than my FB and FB app). It failed to pair which was enough for me to just say "f this" and I took it back. If they drop me having to associate my Quest usage with my FB account I'll be happy to go buy one again.
- blowski 5y ago
  During lockdown, my son's school delivered lots of material through Facebook. Despite quitting 8 years ago, I signed up again. I didn't add any friends or make any posts, though, and within days the account was blocked. When I tried to sign up again, it said my phone number was blocked. I contacted the "you've blocked my account in error" service twice, submitted documents - didn't hear anything back.
  - closetohome 5y ago
    I think this speaks to my issue. Facebook is far too ban-happy and obsessed with verifiable identity for me to ever be comfortable associating it with an expensive piece of hardware.

by sowbug 5y ago

schaefer 5y ago

You are my hero.

djbusby 5y ago

Curious how much time you spent and total time to resolve. Can you share?

sowbug 5y ago
I used to practice law, so the process is a little more natural for me. Summary: 1. I read the terms of service that I originally agreed to. Found a requirement to first negotiate any dispute with their general counsel in good faith. So I wrote to them explaining that I declined the change in ToS terms, and asked for a refund of everything I'd purchased in connection with the headset, plus the dollar amount that it added up to. Sent by registered mail. Waited a few months, got no response. This was summer 2020. 2. Filed a support ticket basically saying the same thing. I got very prompt responses but of course they were templates -- sorry, 30-day return window has expired, please create FB account, etc. 3. Drafted up the small-claims complaint. This is actually a very easy and short form in California. 4. Sent a courtesy copy of the complaint to Oculus general counsel. This can sometimes get their attention and resolve things right away without involving the courts. No response. 5. Filed the complaint, then served Oculus/FB at their Sacramento address for their registered agent for service of process. This cost something like $100 (filing + service). 6. Got a summer 2021 court date. 7. Sent them another courtesy reminder that the court date was approaching and asked to resolve before trial. 8. In the late spring of 2021 got some activity on the support ticket saying sorry for the delay, please dismiss the case, we'll send you the $$$ plus a box to ship back the goggles. 9. I accepted their offer, shipped the stuff back, got the $$$, and filed a dismissal of the case. Total wall clock time > 1 year. Actual human time on the case probably 5 hours. Out of pocket expenses about $100, which I added to the settlement demand, and which they paid. So I ended up back where I started before the Oculus Quest purchase, except for the time I lost writing the court papers and support/legal communications. Which is what I wanted and expected. As I hope you can tell, I wasn't angry or out for revenge. I just didn't want the FB account requirement, and I especially didn't like that they tried to change the contract terms after we had a deal. It was just a business deal to me, and that takes pretty much all the emotion out of it, which can make many legal cases easier to resolve.
- djbusby 5y ago
  Awesome and detailed response. Appreciate you taking the time.
- Cpoll 5y ago
  What's the worst-case scenario here? What would have happened if they met you in court? What would have happened if they won?
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    It would have cost the company thousands in legal fees, subjected the company to wide-ranging interrogation under oath and the case entered in public records. It's the latter two that really gets their attention, as a customer dispute escalated into the business affairs of the top of the company where there's actual consequences. For him, some time and possibility of dismissal.
  - sowbug 5y ago
    Here's where I'd suggest hiring a real lawyer (currently practicing as a litigator in California) for an assessment, but here's my guess. Worst case is I lose in court, which is just wasted time and $100. There's no further downside than that, since they didn't countersue (and couldn't have). In that case, I'd keep my goggles and have the choice whether to throw them away, sell them, or suck it up and do the Facebook account thing. Or wait until today and learn that they'd dropped the requirement.

hairofadog 5y ago

I'm a little fuzzy on why people are upset at the idea of linking their Oculus devices to a Facebook account, but not to a Meta or Oculus account, which are surely part of the same data ecosystem. Genuinely asking, is there some reason to expect less – I don't know, zuckerberginess – from Meta or Oculus than from Facebook?

tomc1985 5y ago
Why do we need an account anyway?? How about ... no accounts.
nickthegreek 5y ago
If your facebook account gets banned for some reason, you would lose your entire paid game library and would not be able to use the hardware you spent your cash on.
- nsxwolf 5y ago
  Now your Meta account can get banned for some reason. I assume the ToS will be very similar. It's a platform, you can say things on it, you can potentially abuse people on it. There may come a day where the world is utterly broken for the unaugmented, just a confusing sterile landscape camouflaged in QR codes. Getting kicked off the Metaverse will be a terrifying form of exile. But it will all be a private company's decision, so that will make it OK.
  - 14 5y ago
    It is still better to keep as many accounts separate as possible. At least right now if you get banned from Facebook your google account doesn’t get banned also. And though I have never been banned from Facebook I wouldn’t want to tie real life game purchases to a social media account where saying the wrong thing might end you up in trouble. Hard pass.
    - Liquix 5y ago
      Not being banned is nice, but keeping your accounts separate does nothing to prevent the data points you mentioned being linked, especially within the Meta ecosystem. Even outside of the ecosystem, there are billion dollar companies that are very very good at tying together all your 'unrelated' accounts/data points and selling these packages to the highest bidder. It's prudent to assume that big brother and anyone else who cared enough to look could link said activity to you.

Diederich 5y ago

Agree with the other reply to you: I'd love to hear more about the nuts and bolts of this if you have a few spare minutes!

greggman3 5y ago

I bought a Quest 2, three weeks ago. Tried to set it up. Already have a Rift S with an Oculus account. To use the Quest 2 required me to switch my Oculus account to FB. (Not gonna happen). I tried 8 times to create a new FB account, it failed the first 7 (no idea why, nothing about the data I entered was strange). When it finally worked the device would not pair with my iPhone6S+ (which I used as it's on a different Apple account than my FB and FB app). It failed to pair which was enough for me to just say "f this" and I took it back. If they drop me having to associate my Quest usage with my FB account I'll be happy to go buy one again.

blowski 5y ago
During lockdown, my son's school delivered lots of material through Facebook. Despite quitting 8 years ago, I signed up again. I didn't add any friends or make any posts, though, and within days the account was blocked. When I tried to sign up again, it said my phone number was blocked. I contacted the "you've blocked my account in error" service twice, submitted documents - didn't hear anything back.
- closetohome 5y ago
  I think this speaks to my issue. Facebook is far too ban-happy and obsessed with verifiable identity for me to ever be comfortable associating it with an expensive piece of hardware.