4 ms·

MRI and ultrasound can usher treatments through the blood-brain barrier

72 points by samizdis 5y ago

gurjeet 5y ago
> Researchers have developed a technique to get treatments through the protective blood-brain barrier It's a good thing. I read the HN headline to mean that it's a bad thing; meaning something like "cancer patients undergoing treatment, experience drugs breaking and entering the blood-brain barrier. HN Headline> MRI and Ultrasound Can Sneak Cancer Drugs into the Brain
- mijowi 5y ago
  Yeah my brain thought “cancer causing” drugs. I was thinking the dyes and such they use must have been linked to cancer. Glad to see I misunderstood.
- dang 5y ago
  Ok, we've swapped out the baity part of the title for a non-baity part of the subtitle. Thanks!
superkuh 5y ago
Basically, ultrasound can fluidize the lipid membrane and cause leaks. MRI is used for mapping and guidance of the ultrasound mediated lipid shearing.
- amelius 5y ago
  Does this mean that ultrasound (e.g. when used for imaging) can cause bad effects as well?
  - williamscales 5y ago
    I know very little about medical ultrasound, but I do know that ultrasonic cleaners can seriously hurt you if they're powerful enough. On the other hand I recently had a treatment on my foot where they used ultrasound to stimulate blood flow. I just felt a slight warmth. So I imagine it's a matter of intensity, and where it's pointed.
    - dragosmocrii 5y ago
      does that apply to ultrasonic toothbrushes too?
      - knodi123 5y ago
        Probably not- the faster sonicare toothbrushes vibrate at 512 Hz, while sonograms are between 2,000,000 to 18,000,000 Hz. There's probably a significant difference in power levels, too.
        sxv 5y ago
        "Ultrasonic" is by definition above 20,000 Hz. According to wiki[0] an ultrasonic toothbrush typically operates on a frequency of 1.6 MHz. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_toothbrush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_toothbrush
        knodi123 5y ago
        When measured, it apparently came out to about 262.5 Hz for Sonicare. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15575438/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15575438/ And that makes sense. On the face of it, the idea that the bristles are vibrating in the MHz range is just absurd. "Ultrasonic" is by definition above the human range of hearing, which is about 20,000 Hz as you said. I own a sonicare. I've heard it. It's not inaudible. :-)
        jml7c5 5y ago
        The Sonicare is marketed as a "sonic" toothbrush (a marketing tactic that I never really understood), so it's not too surprising that it's in the audible range. I suspect that you, like myself, assumed parent was writing "ultrasonic" by mistake and didn't look too carefully at the wiki link they posted. But to my surprise, true ultrasonic toothbrushes are real! Take a look at the link; apparently they typically operate at 1.6 MHz.
        schoen 5y ago
  - venachescu 5y ago
    Not really when it’s used in the ways they use for imaging. What this procedure uses is ‘focused’ ultrasound that is comprised of a helmet-array of transducers (it has serious Magneto vibes) that is very specifically calibrated to create areas of focused resonance within the brain, using the MRI imaging as guidance. Any of the individual transducers don’t have anywhere near enough power or penetration to be really dangerous by themselves. This same technique is also being researched as an alternative for radiation therapy, since it doesn’t cause nearly as much collateral damage.
t-writescode 5y ago
I wonder if this could be used for a post-exposure, post-symptoms rabies treatment.
tudorw 5y ago
quite interesting, here's a tangential article about the vagus nerve, https://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/vagus https://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/vagus "Psychobiologists show how the vagal pathway links hormones outside the brain to neurotransmitters inside the brain to lock in memory of emotional or stressful events."
stereoradonc 5y ago
The disruption of Blood Brain Barrier has been an ongoing attempt. No one can reliably ensure it in clinical deliveries.

72 points by samizdis 5y ago

> Researchers have developed a technique to get treatments through the protective blood-brain barrier It's a good thing. I read the HN headline to mean that it's a bad thing; meaning something like "cancer patients undergoing treatment, experience drugs breaking and entering the blood-brain barrier. HN Headline> MRI and Ultrasound Can Sneak Cancer Drugs into the Brain

mijowi 5y ago
Yeah my brain thought “cancer causing” drugs. I was thinking the dyes and such they use must have been linked to cancer. Glad to see I misunderstood.
dang 5y ago
Ok, we've swapped out the baity part of the title for a non-baity part of the subtitle. Thanks!

superkuh 5y ago

Basically, ultrasound can fluidize the lipid membrane and cause leaks. MRI is used for mapping and guidance of the ultrasound mediated lipid shearing.

amelius 5y ago
Does this mean that ultrasound (e.g. when used for imaging) can cause bad effects as well?
- williamscales 5y ago
  I know very little about medical ultrasound, but I do know that ultrasonic cleaners can seriously hurt you if they're powerful enough. On the other hand I recently had a treatment on my foot where they used ultrasound to stimulate blood flow. I just felt a slight warmth. So I imagine it's a matter of intensity, and where it's pointed.
  - dragosmocrii 5y ago
    does that apply to ultrasonic toothbrushes too?
    - knodi123 5y ago
      Probably not- the faster sonicare toothbrushes vibrate at 512 Hz, while sonograms are between 2,000,000 to 18,000,000 Hz. There's probably a significant difference in power levels, too.
      - sxv 5y ago
        "Ultrasonic" is by definition above 20,000 Hz. According to wiki[0] an ultrasonic toothbrush typically operates on a frequency of 1.6 MHz. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_toothbrush https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_toothbrush
        knodi123 5y ago
        When measured, it apparently came out to about 262.5 Hz for Sonicare. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15575438/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15575438/ And that makes sense. On the face of it, the idea that the bristles are vibrating in the MHz range is just absurd. "Ultrasonic" is by definition above the human range of hearing, which is about 20,000 Hz as you said. I own a sonicare. I've heard it. It's not inaudible. :-)
        jml7c5 5y ago
        The Sonicare is marketed as a "sonic" toothbrush (a marketing tactic that I never really understood), so it's not too surprising that it's in the audible range. I suspect that you, like myself, assumed parent was writing "ultrasonic" by mistake and didn't look too carefully at the wiki link they posted. But to my surprise, true ultrasonic toothbrushes are real! Take a look at the link; apparently they typically operate at 1.6 MHz.
      - schoen 5y ago
- venachescu 5y ago
  Not really when it’s used in the ways they use for imaging. What this procedure uses is ‘focused’ ultrasound that is comprised of a helmet-array of transducers (it has serious Magneto vibes) that is very specifically calibrated to create areas of focused resonance within the brain, using the MRI imaging as guidance. Any of the individual transducers don’t have anywhere near enough power or penetration to be really dangerous by themselves. This same technique is also being researched as an alternative for radiation therapy, since it doesn’t cause nearly as much collateral damage.

t-writescode 5y ago

I wonder if this could be used for a post-exposure, post-symptoms rabies treatment.

tudorw 5y ago

quite interesting, here's a tangential article about the vagus nerve, https://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/vagus https://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/vagus "Psychobiologists show how the vagal pathway links hormones outside the brain to neurotransmitters inside the brain to lock in memory of emotional or stressful events."

stereoradonc 5y ago

The disruption of Blood Brain Barrier has been an ongoing attempt. No one can reliably ensure it in clinical deliveries.