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> Because I've been using it for weeks and it makes me read these types of comments as "I don't understand the value of the internet" or "what's the purpose of

> Because I've been using it for weeks and it makes me read these types of comments as "I don't understand the value of the internet" or "what's the purpose of owning a phone". And yet apart from making this very inaccurate comparison you haven't made any argument for why such a thing as Copilot would be useful to anyone. How do you personally find Copilot useful? And why do you think someone whose job demands more than copy/pasting boilerplate code should try Copilot? The onus is on you to convince the skeptics.

wokwokwok 5y ago
> The onus is on you to convince the skeptics. Is it? Look, I don't care at all if you use copilot; you can use notepad to write your code if that floats your boat; do whatever you want. What the parent post said is: Copilot is useful; it helps you write code with autocomplete suggestions. If you think that you don't get productivity gains from an IDE or you're in the 'no IDE makes you more hardcore and better programmer so never program with an IDE' camp, we just have to agree to disagree. So, I have no interest in that conversation. ... However, there is a more interesting conversation here we can have: Given that you have an IDE and use autocomplete: 1) Does Copilot give suggestions are meaningfully useful? Yes. I honestly can't give you a better answer than that. Yes, it does, it's quite good. If you don't believe me, try it. 2) Is it better than regular autocomplete? Look, forget the 'Look, I typed 'process user form and display on UI' and it autocompleted a whole application for me!!' hype. That's stupid and that's not how it works. It's an autocomplete. It can autocomplete large chunks, but they're generally rubbish. ...but it does two very interesting things: - It suggests things that are contextually correct. For example: even though its rubbish at C++ syntax, it generates valid UPROPERTY and UFUNCTION blocks for unreal code. If I write a `for (y = 0;...` on an array, it generates the associated `for (x = 0;...` when I'm iterating over a 2D array. If I have a function which takes a pointer like: > UFvContainerWidget* UFvContainerWidget::ForEquipmentDef(UFvEquipmentDef* EquipmentDef, bool& IsValid) I press enter and it pops up: if (!EquipmentDef) { IsValid = false; <--- WTF! return nullptr; } Sure, it's a similar pattern to other code in related files, but still. This surprised me. I've never encountered an autocomplete that does that before. Sometimes the suggestions don't make sense, and the larger the chunk, the less sense they make. ...but the suggestions that do make sense, make you regret not having it when you don't have it. Like... regular autocomplete. It's just a tool; it works very well at small scale autocomplete tasks. - It can suggest comments from code as well as code from comments. Literally, I can go above a function and type "/*" and it'll suggest a comment. These don't always make sense, but often they're pretty close, and it saves me 20 seconds typing. You have to carefully read these comments, because they tend to get random crap in them, but once again, for short comments its not bad. Again... it's surprisingly good. Not perfect. It doesn't write your comments for you... but, it's easy to get into the habit of getting it to autocomplete "Returns null if the object is invalid" for you instead of typing it out. 3) Should I use it? Look, I literally do not care if you do or don't. What I take issue with is people saying 'it has no value'. Does autocomplete have a value? Then this has a value. Saying it has no value is just trolling. Is it worth the cost? Well, it's free to use right now.... so, well, you can't beat free right? :) Longer term, would I pay for it? Probably (** Personal opinion only: Maybe... you should try it and decide for yourself?)
- ranguna 5y ago
  > Well, it's free to use right now.... From copilot "additional telemetry" > If you use GitHub Copilot, the GitHub Copilot extension/plugin will collect usage information about events generated by interacting with the integrated development environment (IDE). These events include GitHub Copilot performance, features used, and suggestions accepted, modified and accepted, or dismissed. This information may include personal data, including your User Personal Information So, not really free is it?
  - baby 5y ago
    Yes it’s free
  - wokwokwok 5y ago
    > Should I use it? > Look, I literally do not care if you do or don't. > What I take issue with is people saying 'it has no value'.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    > suggestions accepted, modified and accepted, or dismissed. This information may include personal data, including your User Personal Information Seriously wtf, my legal department will have a heart attack if they read this.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    It depends on semantics and your interpretation of value. In the eyes of most people free == 'something that i don't have to pay for through my bank accounts or other means', as opposed to caring about analytics, telemetry etc. At least AFAIK that's the common usage and what almost everyone means, though it's definitely worth it to talk in more detail about what hides under that term most of the time!
- blub 5y ago
  That sounds about as useful as Tesla's "auto-pilot" - good when it works but you have to always pay attention that it's not trying to kill you (or your code in this case). A bad proposition for most people, because you can't trust it.
jpalomaki 5y ago
I think current co-pilot is less useful for person who entirely knows the language and libraries. Right know I see more use for people who understand the language and libraries, but are frequently Googling ”how do I do xyz in P” (because they can’t recall certain things).
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Bouncing around languages and ecosystems is pretty common, isn't it?
  - baby 5y ago
    Yep. A lot of the negative comments seem to come from people who haven’t worked on any new technology/language/framework in years.
  - erikbye 5y ago
    For the average career developer, less common than being stuck with the same legacy code base and language/framework for years.
  - krageon 5y ago
    Only within startups. Larger corporations have stable toolchains with lifetimes measured in years.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Based on my experience at a very large corporation, not the case. I've had to work on more languages within a year here than any other job I've had.
- minusSeven 5y ago
  Almost everyone does search like that, its not about doing something but about finding best and easiest way to do something.
  - 5y ago
baby 5y ago
First, why would I need to argue this? Just try it and see if it’s useful for you. I know people who don’t use IDEs or don’t use syntax highlighting and it doesn’t seem to bother them much, so who knows. Second, I’ve actually answered elsewhere in this thread.
gremlinsinc 5y ago
you can sometimes just tap enter, inside a model or another file (in a framework like Laravel for example), and it'll literally guess the entire function. at the most If you just make a comment about what the function should do, or name the function something sensible it'll get the whole function maybe 58% of the time, and when it's wrong there's other options to choose from and one might get you 90% to the end goal, and just need a few modifications. I've used kite, and tabnine and loved tabnine, but this is something different and way more like magic. I can't explain how, it just feels like it's reading my brain as I type..

wokwokwok 5y ago

> The onus is on you to convince the skeptics. Is it? Look, I don't care at all if you use copilot; you can use notepad to write your code if that floats your boat; do whatever you want. What the parent post said is: Copilot is useful; it helps you write code with autocomplete suggestions. If you think that you don't get productivity gains from an IDE or you're in the 'no IDE makes you more hardcore and better programmer so never program with an IDE' camp, we just have to agree to disagree. So, I have no interest in that conversation. ... However, there is a more interesting conversation here we can have: Given that you have an IDE and use autocomplete: 1) Does Copilot give suggestions are meaningfully useful? Yes. I honestly can't give you a better answer than that. Yes, it does, it's quite good. If you don't believe me, try it. 2) Is it better than regular autocomplete? Look, forget the 'Look, I typed 'process user form and display on UI' and it autocompleted a whole application for me!!' hype. That's stupid and that's not how it works. It's an autocomplete. It can autocomplete large chunks, but they're generally rubbish. ...but it does two very interesting things: - It suggests things that are contextually correct. For example: even though its rubbish at C++ syntax, it generates valid UPROPERTY and UFUNCTION blocks for unreal code. If I write a `for (y = 0;...` on an array, it generates the associated `for (x = 0;...` when I'm iterating over a 2D array. If I have a function which takes a pointer like: > UFvContainerWidget* UFvContainerWidget::ForEquipmentDef(UFvEquipmentDef* EquipmentDef, bool& IsValid) I press enter and it pops up: if (!EquipmentDef) { IsValid = false; <--- WTF! return nullptr; } Sure, it's a similar pattern to other code in related files, but still. This surprised me. I've never encountered an autocomplete that does that before. Sometimes the suggestions don't make sense, and the larger the chunk, the less sense they make. ...but the suggestions that do make sense, make you regret not having it when you don't have it. Like... regular autocomplete. It's just a tool; it works very well at small scale autocomplete tasks. - It can suggest comments from code as well as code from comments. Literally, I can go above a function and type "/*" and it'll suggest a comment. These don't always make sense, but often they're pretty close, and it saves me 20 seconds typing. You have to carefully read these comments, because they tend to get random crap in them, but once again, for short comments its not bad. Again... it's surprisingly good. Not perfect. It doesn't write your comments for you... but, it's easy to get into the habit of getting it to autocomplete "Returns null if the object is invalid" for you instead of typing it out. 3) Should I use it? Look, I literally do not care if you do or don't. What I take issue with is people saying 'it has no value'. Does autocomplete have a value? Then this has a value. Saying it has no value is just trolling. Is it worth the cost? Well, it's free to use right now.... so, well, you can't beat free right? :) Longer term, would I pay for it? Probably (** Personal opinion only: Maybe... you should try it and decide for yourself?)

ranguna 5y ago
> Well, it's free to use right now.... From copilot "additional telemetry" > If you use GitHub Copilot, the GitHub Copilot extension/plugin will collect usage information about events generated by interacting with the integrated development environment (IDE). These events include GitHub Copilot performance, features used, and suggestions accepted, modified and accepted, or dismissed. This information may include personal data, including your User Personal Information So, not really free is it?
- baby 5y ago
  Yes it’s free
- wokwokwok 5y ago
  > Should I use it? > Look, I literally do not care if you do or don't. > What I take issue with is people saying 'it has no value'.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > suggestions accepted, modified and accepted, or dismissed. This information may include personal data, including your User Personal Information Seriously wtf, my legal department will have a heart attack if they read this.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  It depends on semantics and your interpretation of value. In the eyes of most people free == 'something that i don't have to pay for through my bank accounts or other means', as opposed to caring about analytics, telemetry etc. At least AFAIK that's the common usage and what almost everyone means, though it's definitely worth it to talk in more detail about what hides under that term most of the time!
blub 5y ago
That sounds about as useful as Tesla's "auto-pilot" - good when it works but you have to always pay attention that it's not trying to kill you (or your code in this case). A bad proposition for most people, because you can't trust it.

jpalomaki 5y ago

I think current co-pilot is less useful for person who entirely knows the language and libraries. Right know I see more use for people who understand the language and libraries, but are frequently Googling ”how do I do xyz in P” (because they can’t recall certain things).

emodendroket 5y ago
Bouncing around languages and ecosystems is pretty common, isn't it?
- baby 5y ago
  Yep. A lot of the negative comments seem to come from people who haven’t worked on any new technology/language/framework in years.
- erikbye 5y ago
  For the average career developer, less common than being stuck with the same legacy code base and language/framework for years.
- krageon 5y ago
  Only within startups. Larger corporations have stable toolchains with lifetimes measured in years.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Based on my experience at a very large corporation, not the case. I've had to work on more languages within a year here than any other job I've had.
minusSeven 5y ago
Almost everyone does search like that, its not about doing something but about finding best and easiest way to do something.
- 5y ago

baby 5y ago

First, why would I need to argue this? Just try it and see if it’s useful for you. I know people who don’t use IDEs or don’t use syntax highlighting and it doesn’t seem to bother them much, so who knows. Second, I’ve actually answered elsewhere in this thread.

gremlinsinc 5y ago

you can sometimes just tap enter, inside a model or another file (in a framework like Laravel for example), and it'll literally guess the entire function. at the most If you just make a comment about what the function should do, or name the function something sensible it'll get the whole function maybe 58% of the time, and when it's wrong there's other options to choose from and one might get you 90% to the end goal, and just need a few modifications. I've used kite, and tabnine and loved tabnine, but this is something different and way more like magic. I can't explain how, it just feels like it's reading my brain as I type..