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What was the thinking around diesel vs natural gas? Do you just use heating oil? How do you manage that it has a limited shelf life?

by cduzz 5y ago

lepton 5y ago
Natural gas is very likely unavailable in remote areas. Usual fuels would be propane or diesel, which can be trucked in.
tw04 5y ago
People seem to think Natural Gas just magically makes its way down the lines. NG requires power as well. If power is out for any period of time you lose natural gas soon after due to compression stations going offline unless you happen to be one of the lucky ones who lives off a branch that is self-powered. https://geekprepper.com/how-long-will-natural-gas-last-without-electricity/ https://geekprepper.com/how-long-will-natural-gas-last-witho...
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  That article is from 2015. The bulk of natural gas infrastructure is self powered these days because declines in gas prices since then have made that a comparatively better option in more places and the natural attrition and upgrade cycle of equipment.
  - reaperducer 5y ago
    I don't think "the bulk" is true. Last year's deadly winter storm in Texas showed that a lot of natural gas infrastructure does indeed rely on electricity.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      >Last year's deadly winter storm in Texas showed that a lot of natural gas infrastructure does indeed rely on electricity. This is just a lie. A bunch of crap in TX froze up because the physical infrastructure was not designed to operate in those temps. When you're compressing and decompressing gasses moisture becomes ice. Their facilities were not designed to prevent icing in low ambient tempts. They had no problem getting power for the most part. Remember, generators are SOP for pretty much all utilities and doubly so anywhere you might get a hurricane (which is a good chunk of TX).
      - detaro 5y ago
        Even just the first two google results paint a very different picture, so please bring evidence if you throw around accusations of lying. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-blackouts-paperwork/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-b... > That meant that Oncor, which delivers power to the Permian Basin — the state’s most productive oil and natural gas basin — had unwittingly shut off some of the state’s power supply when it followed orders to begin the outages. > When Texas deregulated its electricity market in the early 2000s, making supply and demand the primary forces for the price of power and increasing competition, wholesale power prices fell. That made it cheaper to electrify natural gas compressor stations and other equipment rather than the traditional method of using the natural gas produced in the field to run the compressor’s turbines or engines, energy experts said. https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/032421-texas-politicians-vow-fix-for-loophole-that-kept-natural-gas-facilities-offline https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-ne... > Much the the state's natural gas production and processing were struggling during the storm even before they lost power because of the weather, causing problems at the wellhead and the plants. But the failures were exacerbated by widespread power outages in the Permian Basin and Eagle Ford Shale, creating gaps where the gas could not be delivered to the gas-fired power plants that desperately needed supplies to generate electricity. > At the peak, more than half of the state's natural gas supplies were knocked offline by power losses, according to ERCOT, causing at least 20% of the total power outages during the week.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Being wrong is ok. Being wrong while being belligerent is not ok.
        throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        A snide comment like that coming from you is a strong reminder of why stereotypes exist.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    (New) Compressor stations now must now be electrically powered to get permitted by the federal forces that be. (With very few exceptions.) Even replacing compressors that were self powered now need to be electric. It doesn't make any sense, except that it's another regulatory expense resulting in both higher cost and less reliability.
    - idiotsecant 5y ago
      It does make sense - just not by the metrics you're judging it. If what you care about is carbon emissions, electrical power is better. If what you care about is system reliability native fuel power is better. A lot of times when people say 'Thing thing makes no sense' what they mean is 'This thing doesn't agree with my priorities'
- cduzz 5y ago
  Oh, sorry, I didn't actually mean "natural gas that comes from a magic pipe" -- I meant propane that sits in a big tank in the backyard. I know intellectually that they're different gases, probably with different numbers of carbons in the molecule, but I have the bad habit of using them interchangeably.... In the "rural" areas I spend the most time in (cape cod, not exactly rural but also with sketchy utilities) people mostly have generators running off of big (well, probably medium sized) propane tanks that I imagine may also be used for cooking / heating as well. I'm more curious about the stability of the fuel over the long term if it isn't cycled often, where I imagine propane / NG has an advantage, but I guess if you're using it as backup to solar and wind, there's an expectation that you'll go through a couple tanks a winter regardless so stability isn't as much of an issue.
  - nickff 5y ago
    Propane and methane are very different, and you should be careful about the differences if you use either. Propane is almost always sold as liquefied propane gas (LPG) at a relatively low pressure, whereas natural gas is almost always sold in its pressurized or compressed gaseous form. The most important difference is that if you have a natural gas leak, it will 'float' in the air, and dissipate; propane will (dangerously) 'sink', and pool around the source, and is liable to explode. Indoor propane installations should always have at least one propane detector.
    - robocat 5y ago
      LPG stands for liquified petroleum gas, which is sometimes just propane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      > Propane and methane are very different, and you should be careful about the differences if you use either. Also be careful to note that "natural gas" is mostly methane but with a significant mix of heavier hydrocarbons too.
jacquesm 5y ago
Natural gas was possible but would require more capital up front, a lot more space and a specially prepared site for the tank, annual safety inspections and a place for a 40' truck to deliver it and turn around again (and of course it still required the genset itself). Diesel was by far the easiest solution, especially because we used the generator infrequently and once the windmill was up not at all. We used wood for heat and limited shelf life for diesel is not an issue at all (it is for ethanol based gasoline).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rjsw 5y ago
From experience, you can get through a couple of big propane tanks per year just using it for cooking.

What was the thinking around diesel vs natural gas? Do you just use heating oil? How do you manage that it has a limited shelf life?

by cduzz 5y ago

What was the thinking around diesel vs natural gas? Do you just use heating oil? How do you manage that it has a limited shelf life?

lepton 5y ago

Natural gas is very likely unavailable in remote areas. Usual fuels would be propane or diesel, which can be trucked in.

tw04 5y ago

People seem to think Natural Gas just magically makes its way down the lines. NG requires power as well. If power is out for any period of time you lose natural gas soon after due to compression stations going offline unless you happen to be one of the lucky ones who lives off a branch that is self-powered. https://geekprepper.com/how-long-will-natural-gas-last-without-electricity/ https://geekprepper.com/how-long-will-natural-gas-last-witho...

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
That article is from 2015. The bulk of natural gas infrastructure is self powered these days because declines in gas prices since then have made that a comparatively better option in more places and the natural attrition and upgrade cycle of equipment.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  I don't think "the bulk" is true. Last year's deadly winter storm in Texas showed that a lot of natural gas infrastructure does indeed rely on electricity.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    >Last year's deadly winter storm in Texas showed that a lot of natural gas infrastructure does indeed rely on electricity. This is just a lie. A bunch of crap in TX froze up because the physical infrastructure was not designed to operate in those temps. When you're compressing and decompressing gasses moisture becomes ice. Their facilities were not designed to prevent icing in low ambient tempts. They had no problem getting power for the most part. Remember, generators are SOP for pretty much all utilities and doubly so anywhere you might get a hurricane (which is a good chunk of TX).
    - detaro 5y ago
      Even just the first two google results paint a very different picture, so please bring evidence if you throw around accusations of lying. https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-blackouts-paperwork/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/03/18/texas-winter-storm-b... > That meant that Oncor, which delivers power to the Permian Basin — the state’s most productive oil and natural gas basin — had unwittingly shut off some of the state’s power supply when it followed orders to begin the outages. > When Texas deregulated its electricity market in the early 2000s, making supply and demand the primary forces for the price of power and increasing competition, wholesale power prices fell. That made it cheaper to electrify natural gas compressor stations and other equipment rather than the traditional method of using the natural gas produced in the field to run the compressor’s turbines or engines, energy experts said. https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/032421-texas-politicians-vow-fix-for-loophole-that-kept-natural-gas-facilities-offline https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-ne... > Much the the state's natural gas production and processing were struggling during the storm even before they lost power because of the weather, causing problems at the wellhead and the plants. But the failures were exacerbated by widespread power outages in the Permian Basin and Eagle Ford Shale, creating gaps where the gas could not be delivered to the gas-fired power plants that desperately needed supplies to generate electricity. > At the peak, more than half of the state's natural gas supplies were knocked offline by power losses, according to ERCOT, causing at least 20% of the total power outages during the week.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Being wrong is ok. Being wrong while being belligerent is not ok.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        A snide comment like that coming from you is a strong reminder of why stereotypes exist.
- beerandt 5y ago
  (New) Compressor stations now must now be electrically powered to get permitted by the federal forces that be. (With very few exceptions.) Even replacing compressors that were self powered now need to be electric. It doesn't make any sense, except that it's another regulatory expense resulting in both higher cost and less reliability.
  - idiotsecant 5y ago
    It does make sense - just not by the metrics you're judging it. If what you care about is carbon emissions, electrical power is better. If what you care about is system reliability native fuel power is better. A lot of times when people say 'Thing thing makes no sense' what they mean is 'This thing doesn't agree with my priorities'
cduzz 5y ago
Oh, sorry, I didn't actually mean "natural gas that comes from a magic pipe" -- I meant propane that sits in a big tank in the backyard. I know intellectually that they're different gases, probably with different numbers of carbons in the molecule, but I have the bad habit of using them interchangeably.... In the "rural" areas I spend the most time in (cape cod, not exactly rural but also with sketchy utilities) people mostly have generators running off of big (well, probably medium sized) propane tanks that I imagine may also be used for cooking / heating as well. I'm more curious about the stability of the fuel over the long term if it isn't cycled often, where I imagine propane / NG has an advantage, but I guess if you're using it as backup to solar and wind, there's an expectation that you'll go through a couple tanks a winter regardless so stability isn't as much of an issue.
- nickff 5y ago
  Propane and methane are very different, and you should be careful about the differences if you use either. Propane is almost always sold as liquefied propane gas (LPG) at a relatively low pressure, whereas natural gas is almost always sold in its pressurized or compressed gaseous form. The most important difference is that if you have a natural gas leak, it will 'float' in the air, and dissipate; propane will (dangerously) 'sink', and pool around the source, and is liable to explode. Indoor propane installations should always have at least one propane detector.
  - robocat 5y ago
    LPG stands for liquified petroleum gas, which is sometimes just propane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > Propane and methane are very different, and you should be careful about the differences if you use either. Also be careful to note that "natural gas" is mostly methane but with a significant mix of heavier hydrocarbons too.

jacquesm 5y ago

Natural gas was possible but would require more capital up front, a lot more space and a specially prepared site for the tank, annual safety inspections and a place for a 40' truck to deliver it and turn around again (and of course it still required the genset itself). Diesel was by far the easiest solution, especially because we used the generator infrequently and once the windmill was up not at all. We used wood for heat and limited shelf life for diesel is not an issue at all (it is for ethanol based gasoline).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

rjsw 5y ago

From experience, you can get through a couple of big propane tanks per year just using it for cooking.