7 ms·

There are a lot of old Cessna-type planes out there in the US (and to a certain extent Canada) that act as the backbone of the pilot training pipeline: what wil

There are a lot of old Cessna-type planes out there in the US (and to a certain extent Canada) that act as the backbone of the pilot training pipeline: what will it take to update all of those? (And a whole bunch are owned 'for fun'.) I guess after people had to pay to meet the FAA's ADS-B mandate, this is another equipment update that will need to dealt with.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>I guess after people had to pay to meet the FAA's ADS-B mandate, this is another equipment update that will need to dealt with. Have us Canucks even done ADS-B? The USA is way ahead of us on that one.
- _n_b_ 5y ago
  "Meanwhile, the ADS-B mandate in Canada has been under an indefinite suspension since November 2019. It was originally slated to begin in February 2021 but was placed on hold in response to stakeholder feedback." https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2021-07-15/transport-canada-revises-ads-b-advisory-circular https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/20...
  - sleepysysadmin 5y ago
    Thanks, couldn't find anything. I knew that happened years ago and didn't hear much.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    IIRC a major sticking point was "antenna diversity": in addition to having something point down, Nav Canada wanted antennas pointing up for space-based ADS-B (NavCanada was an initial investor in Aireon). But the extra antenna is still a bit pricey, but given Canada's vastness, satellites were the only way to get good overage outside of major urban areas. NavCanada/Aireon would also be using 1090ES and not the UAT that the US allows for lower-flying GA planes as well. However, if you're near the US border, your transponder can (IIRC) broadcast that you have an UAT receiver on-board (even if you have an 1090 transmitter), and the FAA's gear may send out UAT data (e.g., weather, UAT planes). * https://skiesmag.com/features/diversity-matters-canadas-performance-requirements/ https://skiesmag.com/features/diversity-matters-canadas-perf...
bencoder 5y ago
The direction indicator is gyro based rather than magnetic so for most GA it would probably be enough to just learn the offset for the area you are flying and add that when you set/check the DI. For VFR flying it hardly matters anyway
- lxgr 5y ago
  The direction indicator is not a gyrocompass, though – it will eventually drift unless it's periodically adjusted.
  - bencoder 5y ago
    Sure but in small GA planes you're not likely to be travelling so far that the magnetic declination is significantly different so just keep it in mind each time you reset the DI. Or if you are travelling long distance you could make a note of it along your planned route, or your GPS app could let you know. My point was that this shouldn't require any instrument upgrades to the GA fleet
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Also, the compass used for calibrating the gyro is pretty small and wobbly. I really doubt you'd be even be able to read that minor difference off it. Edit: Just read here that in the pacific Northwest of the US there is a 20 degree deviation! I had no idea. Where I flew it was a degree at most.
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I don't have a pilot license, but from what I recall of limited training, don't you do most of your training based on Heading Indicator? You adjust it at beginning, which can easily be switched to whatever heading/offset of the runway is (true or magnetic); then reset it to compass as needed on level flight - which is rare during short training flights, and could be adjusted to appropriate offset. So I don't think training itself will be a problem. Once you have actual flights in those aircraft though, I imagine it'll be a bigger kerfuffle for pilots.
- p_l 5y ago
  a lot of smaller planes have only magnetic compass, no gyro-based heading indicator
  - RNCTX 5y ago
    Not true, even the lowly rental C172 with 3 shades of paint and carpet at any raggedy flight school will have a gyro based indicator. Magnetic course calculation is only taught at the initial license level and to instructors. Anyone else is flying by GPS or radio-based nav.
    - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
      OK but the vacuum gyro in said raggedy-ass 172 needs setting against something as part of the checklist (and quite possibly in flight), which today is the magnetic compass.
      - RNCTX 5y ago
        Yeah, but this is really only applicable to VFR-only airplanes (mostly trainers). I doubt there are many people really traveling in airplanes without any sort of precision nav equipment. Practically, it doesn't matter which direction the gyro points as long as you are receiving a VOR signal or GPS signal on a VFR flight. And yeah, a lot in flight. By definition those gyros are gonna be old, and they cost more to overhaul than they're worth so people who are too cheap to go buy an electronic replacement replace used for used off of eBay or the local radio shop's junk shelf. They're not gonna be reliable, at all. But, for VFR purposes it doesn't matter and for IFR purposes you shouldn't be flying such an airplane with such equipment IFR anyway, so...
endymi0n 5y ago
...a Raspberry PI, some COTS sensors, a USB power bank and an old iPad: http://stratux.me/ http://stratux.me/ (or: less than the cost of a usual 100h overhaul ;-) source: PPL applicant and fellow hacker
- mysterydip 5y ago
  Doesn't that need to be FAA certified to be relied upon in an aircraft? That's generally what adds all the expense between "homebrew" and "commercial", isn't it?
  - repiret 5y ago
    It needs to be certified to be permanently installed in a non-experimental aircraft, or to be relied upon for IFR use, but for VFR use powered from a cigarette lighter and suction cuped to the window, you can do whatever you want.
  - rlpb 5y ago
    It's classed as "pilot carry-on" equipment and doesn't need to be certified. Only stuff permanently installed gets that treatment. Just as I don't have to have my pen and pad (or indeed my iPad) certified either :)
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      I wonder how many aviate with a big-ass “portable” lithium ion battery to power it all instead of paying $100 for a flight-certified cigarette lighter receptacle: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cigrecept.php https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cigrecept.php
      - btgeekboy 5y ago
        I have a pair of 13aH Anker batteries I use, rather than dealing with the lighter plug. The electrical isolation is a feature.
- 5y ago
ChicagoBoy11 5y ago
A lot of those are also being retrofitted with newer gauges... Garmin has a whole series of products that is basically "take your six-pack and make it digital!" sort of stuff. I think your ADS-B analogy is spot on -- I'd imagine this go somewhere in the same way as that.
perilunar 5y ago
> this is another equipment update that will need to dealt with. Even in planes with only 'steam' gauges the changes are minor — you won't need any new equipment. Currently: direction indicator is set to magnetic. When planning a flight you take true headings from charts and have to convert them all to magnetic. You then fly magnetic headings. After the changeover: direction indicator is set to true. No need to convert headings when planning a flight. You fly true headings, and the only conversion you need to make is when setting the DI from the compass. (If you don't have a DI you can still pre-convert all your headings to magnetic and fly those. You'll need to mentally convert runways headings etc. though.)
- barbazoo 5y ago
  It drifts considerably over time so you'd have to set it to true periodically which on the ground during start up is fine but not in the air, having to determine magnetic variation at your current location.
  - jcrawfordor 5y ago
    magnetic variation doesn't change all that quickly at 100 knots, and charts provide the variation. I don't really see it being a much bigger workload, and I imagine that if this change does occur chart plotters like Foreflight will start displaying the current variation very prominently for convenience (it's already pretty easy to pull up). I can also imagine people starting to sell retrofit bug rings for heading indicators that let you set the variation in for convenient setting. But in general most pilots of slow aircraft probably already know the approx. variation around their area by memory, most pilots of fast aircraft will have instruments that do it for them.

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

>I guess after people had to pay to meet the FAA's ADS-B mandate, this is another equipment update that will need to dealt with. Have us Canucks even done ADS-B? The USA is way ahead of us on that one.

_n_b_ 5y ago
"Meanwhile, the ADS-B mandate in Canada has been under an indefinite suspension since November 2019. It was originally slated to begin in February 2021 but was placed on hold in response to stakeholder feedback." https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2021-07-15/transport-canada-revises-ads-b-advisory-circular https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/20...
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago
  Thanks, couldn't find anything. I knew that happened years ago and didn't hear much.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  IIRC a major sticking point was "antenna diversity": in addition to having something point down, Nav Canada wanted antennas pointing up for space-based ADS-B (NavCanada was an initial investor in Aireon). But the extra antenna is still a bit pricey, but given Canada's vastness, satellites were the only way to get good overage outside of major urban areas. NavCanada/Aireon would also be using 1090ES and not the UAT that the US allows for lower-flying GA planes as well. However, if you're near the US border, your transponder can (IIRC) broadcast that you have an UAT receiver on-board (even if you have an 1090 transmitter), and the FAA's gear may send out UAT data (e.g., weather, UAT planes). * https://skiesmag.com/features/diversity-matters-canadas-performance-requirements/ https://skiesmag.com/features/diversity-matters-canadas-perf...

bencoder 5y ago

The direction indicator is gyro based rather than magnetic so for most GA it would probably be enough to just learn the offset for the area you are flying and add that when you set/check the DI. For VFR flying it hardly matters anyway

lxgr 5y ago
The direction indicator is not a gyrocompass, though – it will eventually drift unless it's periodically adjusted.
- bencoder 5y ago
  Sure but in small GA planes you're not likely to be travelling so far that the magnetic declination is significantly different so just keep it in mind each time you reset the DI. Or if you are travelling long distance you could make a note of it along your planned route, or your GPS app could let you know. My point was that this shouldn't require any instrument upgrades to the GA fleet
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Also, the compass used for calibrating the gyro is pretty small and wobbly. I really doubt you'd be even be able to read that minor difference off it. Edit: Just read here that in the pacific Northwest of the US there is a 20 degree deviation! I had no idea. Where I flew it was a degree at most.

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I don't have a pilot license, but from what I recall of limited training, don't you do most of your training based on Heading Indicator? You adjust it at beginning, which can easily be switched to whatever heading/offset of the runway is (true or magnetic); then reset it to compass as needed on level flight - which is rare during short training flights, and could be adjusted to appropriate offset. So I don't think training itself will be a problem. Once you have actual flights in those aircraft though, I imagine it'll be a bigger kerfuffle for pilots.

p_l 5y ago
a lot of smaller planes have only magnetic compass, no gyro-based heading indicator
- RNCTX 5y ago
  Not true, even the lowly rental C172 with 3 shades of paint and carpet at any raggedy flight school will have a gyro based indicator. Magnetic course calculation is only taught at the initial license level and to instructors. Anyone else is flying by GPS or radio-based nav.
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    OK but the vacuum gyro in said raggedy-ass 172 needs setting against something as part of the checklist (and quite possibly in flight), which today is the magnetic compass.
    - RNCTX 5y ago
      Yeah, but this is really only applicable to VFR-only airplanes (mostly trainers). I doubt there are many people really traveling in airplanes without any sort of precision nav equipment. Practically, it doesn't matter which direction the gyro points as long as you are receiving a VOR signal or GPS signal on a VFR flight. And yeah, a lot in flight. By definition those gyros are gonna be old, and they cost more to overhaul than they're worth so people who are too cheap to go buy an electronic replacement replace used for used off of eBay or the local radio shop's junk shelf. They're not gonna be reliable, at all. But, for VFR purposes it doesn't matter and for IFR purposes you shouldn't be flying such an airplane with such equipment IFR anyway, so...

endymi0n 5y ago

...a Raspberry PI, some COTS sensors, a USB power bank and an old iPad: http://stratux.me/ http://stratux.me/ (or: less than the cost of a usual 100h overhaul ;-) source: PPL applicant and fellow hacker

mysterydip 5y ago
Doesn't that need to be FAA certified to be relied upon in an aircraft? That's generally what adds all the expense between "homebrew" and "commercial", isn't it?
- repiret 5y ago
  It needs to be certified to be permanently installed in a non-experimental aircraft, or to be relied upon for IFR use, but for VFR use powered from a cigarette lighter and suction cuped to the window, you can do whatever you want.
- rlpb 5y ago
  It's classed as "pilot carry-on" equipment and doesn't need to be certified. Only stuff permanently installed gets that treatment. Just as I don't have to have my pen and pad (or indeed my iPad) certified either :)
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    I wonder how many aviate with a big-ass “portable” lithium ion battery to power it all instead of paying $100 for a flight-certified cigarette lighter receptacle: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cigrecept.php https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cigrecept.php
    - btgeekboy 5y ago
      I have a pair of 13aH Anker batteries I use, rather than dealing with the lighter plug. The electrical isolation is a feature.
5y ago

ChicagoBoy11 5y ago

A lot of those are also being retrofitted with newer gauges... Garmin has a whole series of products that is basically "take your six-pack and make it digital!" sort of stuff. I think your ADS-B analogy is spot on -- I'd imagine this go somewhere in the same way as that.

perilunar 5y ago

> this is another equipment update that will need to dealt with. Even in planes with only 'steam' gauges the changes are minor — you won't need any new equipment. Currently: direction indicator is set to magnetic. When planning a flight you take true headings from charts and have to convert them all to magnetic. You then fly magnetic headings. After the changeover: direction indicator is set to true. No need to convert headings when planning a flight. You fly true headings, and the only conversion you need to make is when setting the DI from the compass. (If you don't have a DI you can still pre-convert all your headings to magnetic and fly those. You'll need to mentally convert runways headings etc. though.)

barbazoo 5y ago
It drifts considerably over time so you'd have to set it to true periodically which on the ground during start up is fine but not in the air, having to determine magnetic variation at your current location.
- jcrawfordor 5y ago
  magnetic variation doesn't change all that quickly at 100 knots, and charts provide the variation. I don't really see it being a much bigger workload, and I imagine that if this change does occur chart plotters like Foreflight will start displaying the current variation very prominently for convenience (it's already pretty easy to pull up). I can also imagine people starting to sell retrofit bug rings for heading indicators that let you set the variation in for convenient setting. But in general most pilots of slow aircraft probably already know the approx. variation around their area by memory, most pilots of fast aircraft will have instruments that do it for them.