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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI
- dgellow 5y agoWell, at least we cannot say they don’t listen to feedbacks.
- pritambaral 5y agoWindows would indicate otherwise.
- radicalbyte 5y agoThis is good, but given the amount of terrible decisions in the last few weeks from Microsoft I've lost all trust in them. This will pass, and they'll sneakily do something else. It's clear from the reaction of the well known alt.net people that this problem is strategic, and coming from above. Nothing in this move signifies a change in that strategy.
- tytrdev 5y agoWeird take IMO. I don’t trust MS and strive to stay away from their products where possible. Their acquisitions of a lot of OSS stuff make that pretty hard these days, though… But I find it weird to expect perfect decision making out of an organization with hundreds of thousands of employees with a global influence. I don’t know any individuals with perfect decision making skills, so when you take the union of that and add hierarchy, I certainly wouldn’t expect a system of perfection. Especially when perfection is defined by some relative/personal standard. I agree with your opinions that Microsoft will do weird stuff going forward and that this decision means nothing. It’s also irrelevant to me since I don’t use .NET for absolutely anything. But if your “trust” in an org is based on them not making “terrible decisions”, I think it may be impossible to actually trust any org. Since inevitably at scale every org will make bad choices. Not criticizing you, just thinking out loud.
- aliswe 5y agoas i mentioned elsewhere in the discussion of this post, the chairman or w/e left their position after the debaucle
- aoetalks 5y agoThat resignation wasn’t about hot reload - it was about merging a PR over objections by maintainers.
- __s 5y agoPrevious thread from today about .NET hot-reload being removed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28968231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28968231 Always remain vigil
- yblu 5y agoFollow-up blog post from .NET Director: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-hot-reload-support-via-cli/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/net-hot-reload-support...
- dang 5y agoOk, we've changed to that from https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/pull/22262 since it (presumably) has more background. Thanks!
- sbelskie 5y agoPretty encouraging sign given the drama the last few days. In addition to the community response, it’s pretty clear that a number of dotnet and MSFT team members went to bat hard for this. Really happy to see that they won out.
- capableweb 5y agoEncouraging? Microsoft demonstrated here that the move wasn't because of quality or that the change was unable to be in the OSS version, they demonstrated that they only act a certain way because of the backlash. If they would have stand their ground, they would have given the image that this change didn't live up to their wanted quality, instead this demonstrated that they are just giving up to peer-pressure because they don't want to lose "developer love".
- sillysaurusx 5y agoIf someone reverts a bad decision, then that's objectively a good thing, regardless of the reasons.
- prirun 5y agoThey learned that they had the heat up too high and the frog noticed the water bubbling. So they lowered the heat.
- pritambaral 5y ago"He paused beating his wife, because he had guests." Objectively, a good thing. Too bad it's useless, because the guests aren't gonna stay very long.
- sedatk 5y agoWhat's bad about not wanting to lose developer love?
- skohan 5y agoThe problem is they're showing they will behave as badly as they're allowed to. Not terribly good for trust if it takes backlash for them to act the right way.
- oaiey 5y agoHe wrote some "face keeping" Blabla but then the key fact: admitting that they made a mistake and misunderstood the community wish. A step in the right direction.
- pionar 5y agoHe admitted no such thing. He said there was a mistake in the "execution" of the decision, when it's the decision itself that's the problem, not the way they executed.
- usui 5y agoA hot-button issue gets corrected now, but then they continue to make subtler moves. Why say you love open-source if you keep the juicy bits of Visual Studio Code closed-source? More like you love open-source... for making money. Microsoft is a big company with changing microcultures all the time. They alone as a whole should not take credit for their open-source endeavors. In general, big contributor names should be emphasized more, so that we know when they leave Microsoft or the project.
- oaiey 5y agoThe key difference between the two situation is, that the vs code team does it juicy features as a secret project. Dotnet watch was developed, tested and licensed in the public and stripped out last second. VS Code behavior you can accept as a open core or commercial plugin thing. The other thing was just a theft.
- oaiey 5y agoI want to extend in this a bit: Scott, Damian, Scott, David, Rich, Immo ... If you read this: fight for a clear ahead of time separation of commercial and non commercial features. Many of us can understand that Microsoft still sells dev tools but we do not like bad communication and stuff taking away which have been there already (at the same time we also think that .NET can only become truly awesome when free tools exists ... because für your competition these exists).
- sbelskie 5y agoThe reason why I feel somewhat encouraged is because my understanding is that this exact group of people fighting to keep this in is why it was reverted. I have no idea who knew what when or how anyone would have reacted without public scrutiny but David Fowler has been hyping hot reload since at least May on Twitter and it seems obvious to me that he and many other team members were 100% behind the planned dotnet watch hot reload approach. Maybe public outcry gave them the ammunition to fight this fight, and I may be naive, but I have a hard time thinking that at least some of that group wasn’t against this decision from the beginning (though who knows if they even learned about it much in advance of it being public).
- holografix 5y agoI just wrote a comment on the other post about this. I wonder how this decision was made _behind the scenes_. Either some negotiation happened and the Visual Studio team got some concessions (smaller target?) or it was mandated from the top. Both alternatives do not bode well for the VS team.
- aliswe 5y agoin large organizations like these there will always be desync issues, though.
- ethbr0 5y agoAt this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.
- blibble 5y agoyep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance with 8 cores, 64gb of ram and SSD, with a clean install every 2 weeks not to mention nearly all of the dialogs are as awful and exactly the same as they were in VS6 (e.g. run configurations) and it's super expensive meanwhile VSC is snappy and free, and the JetBrains IDEs of 2011 run rings round it
- tester756 5y agoI'm using VS almost everyday, sometimes even 2 or 3 instances at the time and it does not reflect my experience, but the difference is >even opening a 100 line .c that I'm using it for C#.
- mrec 5y agoI haven't used VS in years, but the only time I've seen Windows crash to BIOS in the last two decades was during a VS install.
- Etheryte 5y agoAs a small aside to the general discussion, I don't think I've ever seen an accepted reviews list that long. To me that in and of itself speaks volumes about how the development team feels about the business politics going on here.
- atarian 5y ago1. Embrace <-- you are now here 2. Extend 3. Extinguish 4. Go to #1
- oaiey 5y agoYou cannot EEE yourself. They do a lot of community related crap but this is not EEE.
- pxc 5y agoand yet Microsoft attempted it, before our very eyes
- solarkraft 5y agoYou haven’t updated your slides. They’re already at “Extinguish” at some points. This was (kind of) about one of them.
- solarkraft 5y agoIt’s nice that they walked back on immediately blowing up the whole .NET ecosystem. But it’s not like everything is fine again. The Foundation is apparently a bit of a mess and the C# debugger is STILL not available on VScode versions built from source. That and that they would ever even consider doing this still discourages serious investment into .NET.
- aliswe 5y agoThat person who messed up just left the foundation btw.
- solarkraft 5y agoYou’re probably talking about the repository migration, but that’s probably the least of their problems: https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/11/dotnet_foundation_community_issues/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/11/dotnet_foundation_com...
- sedatk 5y agoWho's that?
- nathanaldensr 5y agoThere have been two departures from the Board recently. The person being referred to here is probably Claire Novotny. Search Algolia for lots of posts about the recent .NET Foundation kerfuffles.
- ethbr0 5y ago>> We underestimated the number of developers that are dependent upon this capability in their environments across scenarios, and how the CLI was being used alongside Visual Studio to drive inner loop productivity by many. That's a very odd way to say "modern developers don't use Visual Studio."
- tomnipotent 5y agoAccording to the Stack Overflow developer survey, Visual Studio is still the second most-used IDE by professionals. Granted, SO has a very strong .NET community so there may be some bias.
- saghm 5y agoIDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.
- tomnipotent 5y agohttps://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-most-popular-technologies-integrated-development-environment https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-most-...
- ComputerGuru 5y agoWow, (n)vim is just behind at 30% - I didn’t realize it was that high!
- blackoil 5y agoThis is not just for primary editor. So if I use VSCode as primary, IntelliJ for Java development and vim for server side/small file changes, I'll be counted in all 3.
- fabian2k 5y agoThis feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputation. The Visual Studio side seems to be in a more difficult position, I assumed they can just live from the enterprise/everyone else split and focus on enterprise-y stuff to still sell Visual Studio. But it looks a bit to me like VS Code and the .NET cli have become more of a competition than they'd like. And the worst mistake here might not have been pissing off the .NET community, but pissing of the people working on .NET for Microsoft. I mean in the end this is the same, but pissing off the people working on .NET would result in a much more thorough destruction of trust with the community in the end. But I have zero inside knowledge here, might just be weird decisions driven by internal politics or whatever.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- DeathArrow 5y agoHot reload was removed from the .NET 6 code at request of Julia Liuson, corporate vice president of Microsoft's Developer Division. She probably hoped she will sell a few more licenses of Visual Studio by gimping the open source tooling. Maybe Satya should keep an eye on her.
- S04dKHzrKT 5y agoI don't remember how old this is org chart graphic is, but it seems like it still applies. https://i.imgur.com/qZ0RDYw.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qZ0RDYw.jpg
- bradfitz 5y agoOriginal source: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts
- tester756 5y agoI'm not sure what to feel On first hand it'd be weird to expect MS to do everything for free On the other hand the way they handled it (initially they made it free, OSS and promised fanciness) is kinda poor. On yet another hand maybe they just really sucked at communication, priorities and stuff this time? hard to say. On yet another hand2 .NET maintainers are really open about a lot of stuff, it's easy to talk to them - let it be asp .net or roslyn/compiler project which makes me giving them the benefit of doubt
- DeathArrow 5y agoOf course I don't expect them providing everything for free. But I expect them to stick to their promises and commitments and not to widraw a feature once they committed to make it available.
- dccoolgai 5y agoAll this incident has done for me is to confirm how much _less_ evil MS is than 1) It used to be. 2) Almost every other Big Tech operation these days.
- rmsaksida 5y agoI don't know how "evil" they are, but this incident made me drop any plans of ever building a web project with .NET Core. I like C# and would love to find an excuse to use it, but I'm not relying on a framework that MS will intentionally cripple because of corporate interests.
- dang 5y agoRecent and related: Can we trust Microsoft with open source? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28968231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28968231 - Oct 2021 (223 comments)
- Hamcha 5y agoIf they want .NET to really go mainstream outside Windows, they have to back off pushing for VS so hard. So far, they have been more convincing in getting me back into .NET than they have getting me back into Visual Studio, locking .NET features inside VS would just alienate me from both.
- DeathArrow 5y agoI only got back to .NET web development (after a long period of doing game development) only because .NET core was much more nicer and usable outside of expensive and inflexible Windows Server. Doing .NET development is a very nice experience now. Especially with the ability to do fronted web with Blazor and cross platform mobile development with .MAUI. .NET became usable for any kind of development beside low level systems programming where the garbage collector is not suitable. I would love to see the addition of AOT with the possibility to do manual memory management when you need to.
- MauranKilom 5y agoMaybe I'm naive, but I fully buy the explanation of "we decided to not have it in the OSS version due to constrained resources" (if I'm parsing the discussion correctly). That was evidently not the smartest move, but attributing it to malice is taking it quite a step further. Change my view.
- oaiey 5y agoIt was done. It was first done and presented in dotnet watch. The community contributes a lot, why not letting them maintain it. VS fights a uphill battle to stay relevant. It empowers VS Code devs to do visual stuff. The only thing VS is still good in. ... Got bored of writing more.
- quadrifoliate 5y agoIt's not malice. Your non-technical boss who says "well, if we have 3 other developers developing that API with you, it should get it done in one fourth of the time, right?" is not malicious either. But this kind of a boss doesn't "get" it, and neither does Microsoft. They don't seriously understand the mindset behind an open source project, and I don't expect them to in the future either. So I avoid all Microsoft technologies, especially the lock-in ones like Visual Studio and .NET. I recommend you do as well.
- nathanaldensr 5y agoThere is nothing "lock-in" about .NET Core/.NET 5+. In fact, as you can see from this whole Hot Reload kerfuffle, even Microsoft themselves doesn't always like the spirit of open source present on their own .NET team! .NET Framework is another story, and was (and still is) tightly coupled to Windows. It's the entire reason .NET Core was started as a separate open source effort. Honestly, we're lucky .NET Core was even allowed to live as long as it has. Now, it's philanthropic culture is directly butting heads with the profit-oriented culture of the Visual Studio team.
- quadrifoliate 5y agoThat's the thing – I don't understand why people will chain themselves to caring about all this when you acknowledge that “Microsoft themselves doesn't always like the spirit of open source present on their own .NET team!” Does .NET have some breakthrough features or support that other languages don't have? Are job opportunities better than, say, Java? I'm not understanding the upside here of following the Microsoft version of Keeping Up with the Kardashians.
- chrismsimpson 5y agoI’m developing my own tools in my own language going forward. Between the two languages I use professionally (Swift & C#), there’s enough bloat and secret sauce going in the apparently open source sausage I’m still getting indigestion.
- Zababa 5y agoMy paranoid takeaway from this: you need to create big drama every time Microsoft does something like this. This won't be sustainable in the long run.
- DeathArrow 5y agoYou need to make drama until they learn the lessons.
- quadrifoliate 5y agoThis is reductive, but I am going to repeat the idea that you should not be trusting Microsoft in the first place. Their GitHub acquisition, VSCode, and CodeSpaces are clearly a moat-building towards making GitHub yet another version of Office 365 where you have to pay $$$ for developer tools. GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow, and in 7-10 more years I predict that they will try to marginalize it until you can't actually make commits if you're not using the web UI. Everything Microsoft-related should be considered closed-source and avoided if you have interest in Open Source as more than just a license. The management at Microsoft has way too many non-technical people focused on "user engagement" and "mindshare" for them to think in terms of OSS principles. They are not evil – they just don't "get" it. So I would strongly suggest avoiding any developer-focused products from Microsoft for the next 10 years if cross-platform parity or Open Source are high on your list of values. If not, that's fine too. I advise buying and using a Windows laptop for a first-class Microsoft Developer Experience.
- skohan 5y agoI have started moving projects to GitLab just because I don't think it's healthy for MS to have such a big footprint in OSS
- Waterluvian 5y agoThe “real” got workflow is the one that works. GitHub really helps me focus on real work and not software bookkeeping. But I agree with the thesis of your comment.
- pritambaral 5y agoWriting code isn't all there is that can be considered 'real work'. Reviewing code is also real work. Re-reviwing code after it has been checked in is also real work. GitHub is a real hindrance for reviewing code, and the dumb practices its infantilised review system forces you into make it a nightmare to re-review code after check in.
- colejohnson66 5y ago> GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow, Which is? Email lists? GitHub is much easier to deal with than scouring through email threads. It may work for Linux, GNU, and more, but it doesn’t for the majority of devs.
- sergiotapia 5y agoThis kind of stains .NET as a whole moving forward. I now qualify .net and C# as a non-starter. Just like I would Oracle for my database needs. Is it fast, great, nice to use? Maybe -- but I won't ever use it because it's riddled with licenses and other bullshit I really don't care about. I'll continue to use truly open source and free tools like Postgres and Elixir.
- nathanaldensr 5y agoDon't dismiss .NET itself so easily. As you can see from this incident, there are elements even within Microsoft that don't inherently value the open source nature of the .NET team! .NET Core/.NET 5+ are already open source and highly philanthropic in nature. That doesn't change just because a completely different team--the Visual Studio team--is profit-oriented.
- sergiotapia 5y agoI learned to program with C# back in 2007. I have been following .NET and C# for more than a decade now, I look back fondly at my time with the language and people there. However, if the team is having this much internal struggle why would I ever come back? Why would I stake my business on another Oracle when there are much better alternatives?
- aforwardslash 5y agoCan you point any useful, non-esoteric language with a thriving ecosystem where the internal team doesn't have problems? I don't think so. For real drama, check the history of some well-known compilers/suites (such as the whole gcc vs egcs debacle), you'd be amazed.
- pritambaral 5y agoThose dramas are a lot better than this. If I am being locked-in to a system, I'd much rather it was one of those than this Oracle wannabe.
- matkoniecz 5y ago> we inadvertently ended up deleting the source code instead of just not invoking that code path. Well, maybe it would be avoided if ability to review would not be blocked from start. And community would note it during code review. (obviously, no one believes this explanation and we understand what was actual reason. And thanks to all - hopefully anonymous and which will stay anonymous as long as needed - Microsoft employees who gave real info to Verge)
- lambda_dn 5y agoMicrosoft are a lost company. They fumbled the cell phone era They half heartedly entered the hardware business with poor results. They have a few golden gooses that could be disrupted at any time (Windows, Office). The biggest asset is dotnet and if they fumble that they will go down hard.
- skohan 5y agoThey are doing fine in cloud and gaming. I just wish they would focus on those markets and stop trying to by open source development.
- j56no 5y agoEven if “now” they listened, they still don’t understand. Developers don’t live and breath Windows and VS. MS continues to push Windows experience first. Look at the joke of VS for Mac…
- DeathArrow 5y agoVS for Mac is another code base. Maybe VS is not portable enough.
- indemnity 5y agoI no longer have any skin in this game because I decided to move all our products and the whole stack away from Microsoft five years ago, which meant lower costs, ability to easily go all in on K8s, etc. Nothing about their strategy since has made me regret that decision. Kind of sad to see them flailing about and screwing up, burning goodwill from VS Code and the like. DevDiv still doesn’t get it, dinosaurs.
- stillblue 5y agoWhat tech stack do you use now?
- aaomidi 5y agoOf course Julia was behind the removal of it. I'm so glad I'm not at Microsoft anymore. Her decisions might be great for Microsoft's profit margins, but my god does she hate people getting "stuff for free"
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- LeoNatan25 5y agoHopefully, after this kerfuffle, she soon announces she has made the tough decision to seek new and exciting opportunities outside of Microsoft.
- DeathArrow 5y agoOracle would love to welcome her to the team. :)
- jeswin 5y agoOpen source leadership can only be handled well by people who have experienced and participated in Open Source. If Microsoft is serious about Open Source, they need to put in charge someone who's done this before. They have plenty of people who can lead this; Scott Hanselman, Miguel Icaza, Nat Friedman... Whoever approved this in the first place has shown a shocking level of incompetence in understanding how the developer ecosystems have tilted in the last decade.
- DeathArrow 5y agoActually Miguel Icaza would be very good as a head of .NET development. He's not only managed to build a large open source code base but he also managed to win money from it. He's also a good developer, so he knows how to please developers.
- bigtones 5y agoJulia White doesn't work at Microsoft anymore - she works at SAP. Or did you mean Julia Liuson ?
- thrower123 5y agoI generally like Microsoft as a development stack, but this kerfuffle is reminding me of issues I've had trying to get the folks working on Graph API to understand why being able to access existing APIs with a different kind of credential than they currently support would be helpful. If you're not familiar, there's two different ways to authenticate against Graph API - either directly with the user's credentials, which is good for webapps and user-interactive desktop stuff, and using application credentials, which are suited for server-side workers and daemons and things like that. All the Graph APIs have weird hodgepodges of permissions that are allowed, which sometimes make sense (getting the current user's profile at /me) and often don't make any sense at all, and are just not supported because they didn't bother. If you've got a lot of time on your hands, you can whine and open UserVoice items and rally other people up and lobby, and sometimes they'll get off their asses and do something. Or not, like some of the Teams presence and calling APIs that have been unimplemented for three or four years now...
- tweedledee 5y agoThe real problem is just how damn expensive it is to build anything inside Microsoft. It makes it hard and harder to justify spending the money. AFAIK it’s only getting worse. I expect in time that more and more dark patterns will creep in.
- Mikeb85 5y agoYet more reason I'll continue avoiding anything MS, probably forever. Also makes me more thankful than ever for Emacs. VS Code is obviously part of their embrace/extinguish strategy, it's a nice editor, but I won't use it on principle. If the only reason they walked back this decision is the backlash, they'll continue to try get away with whatever they can. Their culture obviously hasn't changed for the better.
- the_duke 5y agoThis is not directly related, but I think Microsoft regrets the commoditization of language editing features via LSP. In hindsight, editor independent language IDE features driven via a client-server model are such an obvious idea - to the point that I wonder why it took so long for this model to emerge. It makes so much sense to build the IDE features a single time, ideally re-using parts of the compiler infrastructure. By now a lot language servers exist. They have various levels of quality, and the purpose built solutions like VS or the various Jetbrains products are often markedly superior. But many of them are more than good enough for a lot of developers, and they allow turning even Vim into a full-featured, powerful editing environment. (Neovim 0.5 has built-in LSP support) This all started out with VS Code, Typescript, and the LSP specification, and Microsoft deserves a lot of credit for kicking off this trend. But something that probably started out as a way to popularize VS Code and Typescript has turned into a movement that makes the chosen editor much less crucial and more of a commodity. This almost certainly wasn't the intended outcome, or at least a side effect that wasn't anticipated. Hence also the recent steps to counter this trend, like restricting the new Python LSP or this newest .NET drama. Microsoft earned back a lot of good-will from developers with Typescript, VS Code, .net core, Github, npm, .... Many younger devs have lost the mistrust and disgust that was common in certain spheres not that long ago. They probably feel confident enough now to shift gears and aim for lock-in and control.
- pjmlp 5y agoActually it started with Visual Age IDEs, then Eclipse, Monaco editor and finally VSCode, given Erich Gamma's background. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilznKQij7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilznKQij7A
- skohan 5y agoLSP is a solid concept, but if you did want to commodify IDE features, it leaves a lot to be desired. I am implementing an LSP for a pet language, and the state of the documentation is quite shocking. When I first read the "spec", I thought surely I must only be at the intro/marketing brief since so many details are missing. This is a JSON-RPC protocol and the documentation for all the object types is written in typescript. There's nowhere you can go to see a list of all possible json messages in json. And as you get farther into it, it feels less like a generally designed protocol and more like an interface to vscode in particular. In general I wanted to use SublimeText and nvim as test benches for my LSP, but in the end I gave up because there were too many subtle gotchas when not developing against vscode itself using the base test project MS provides. Don't get me wrong, I think LSP has been a great thing for the industry, but I suspect the actual goal was to commodify this type of editor plugin so other competing editors would not gain an advantage over vscode, and to do that in such a way that the result will generally be better on vscode.
- DeathArrow 5y agoSo the good side of Microsoft won this time.
- GarvielLoken 5y ago"Hot Reload" Every day we step closer to ANSI Common Lisp 1994 golden standard. May this mainstream change hasten the renaissance of Image based software.
- tkubacki 5y agoI've quite unique experience beeing .net dev turning into jvm ecosystem. My decision to switch was based on fact that web is growing and .Net is simply...not fitting there. Specifically what I mean is current VS is just not usable for web dev (comparing to Jetbrains tools), but what is even more important - there is nothing close to Spring Boot in terms of ecosystem richness (important for corpos) and even newest .net 5 is much more cumbersome compared to eg. golang (important for startups). Don't get me wrong - I do like C# - it is a nice language (at some point it was better than Java), but current Java and other jvm langs and tooling (lombok) are great too or better (Kotlin) and current web/cloud ecosystem is all but not .net related. if you develop for windows desktop or some .net oriented organization (some do politicall decisions) use .net, but if you can make your own decision and you develop for web/cloud just don't use .NET
- DeathArrow 5y agoFrom my experience, Go is much more boiler-plate-ish than C#. They wanted a very simple language with very simple libraries. But if the functionality is not builtin, you have to implement it yourself. Go is faster to learn but it will take more time to develop something.
- pjmlp 5y agoI have done both since they exist, alongside C++ and Web, and regardless of Microsoft tries to sell, UNIXy shops don't care about .NET Core. Sure, C# is more pleasant to use than Java, and the language has almost C++ like capabilities for low level coding, but it lacks the 25 years of cross platform experience. And one can always include a native library if required, JNI might be boilerplate but it doesn't bite. One cannot pick random .NET library and use it on .NET Core, most likely it is using .NET Framework APIs, COM or Win32 calls. So already there, the ecosystem is reduced to the libraries whose authors have bothered to port to .NET Standard or Core. Then issues like this, or how MAUI is being handled versus what Uno and Avalonia achieved on their own, show the ongoing power struggle.
- Hawxy 5y ago> even newest .net 5 is much more cumbersome compared to eg. golang (important for startups). FYI .NET 6 + C# 10 has a ton of work invested into removing the "enterprise boilerplate" experience and making the language and frameworks more akin to node or go in terms of effort/LoC required to spit out a program: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tutorials/top-level-templates https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tutorials/top-l... There's also a few epics that are specifically focusing on .NET as a compelling cloud framework: https://github.com/dotnet/core/issues/5397 https://github.com/dotnet/core/issues/5397
- DeathArrow 5y agoIf they aren't making a huge revenue from Visual Studio, it might be worth to open source it, too. It would be a a massive win in gaining developers.
- pjmlp 5y agoThey surely are, even with plugins VSCode is glorified editor versus what can be done in Professional and Enterprise editions of VS.
- maxekman 5y ago> We underestimated the number of developers that are dependent upon this capability in their environments across scenarios, and how the CLI was being used alongside Visual Studio to drive inner loop productivity by many. This doesn’t sound like the full truth to me..