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>I'll repeat here--that I don't believe altruism will solve greenhouse gas emissions and global warming: it'll only be solved when it becomes economic to do so.
by dr_dshiv 5y ago
>I'll repeat here--that I don't believe altruism will solve greenhouse gas emissions and global warming: it'll only be solved when it becomes economic to do so.
Completely agree. We need governments to ensure externalities (both positive and negative) are reflected in market pricing so that economic forces can operate efficiently.
Implication: there must be a debt to pay for past and present GHG output. It should not be punitive. But it should be clear and predictable.
- hcurtiss 5y agoWho would pay that debt for past emissions, and what price should they pay?
- smitty1e 5y agoI'm not sure, but there is little more terrifying short of a nuclear accident than the idea of faceless people in an office somewhere deciding who gets a pass and who gets crushed for sins uncommitted by them. In short: you hint at tryanny.
- c1sc0 5y agoBoomers. Everything they own.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rtpg 5y agoPerhaps society as a whole should just try to solve these problems. This is the tarpit of market-based solutions: debating endlessly about who bears costs, instead of just doing collective things collectively. And if you do have markets, every middleman and their dog will demand their slice of the pie.
- voakbasda 5y agoThe only way to get everyone to participate in a solution will be regulation. The last thing that I want is the government regulating this market. We will end up with another cartel like the oil industry.
- malermeister 5y agoSo what do you suggest then? We do nothing and slowly walk towards our demise?
- throwawayboise 5y agoProbably this, yet. When the problem is real, people will find real solutions. Or not, but it's not happening now anyway. Are you driving less? Have you stopped eating beef?
- malermeister 5y agoWhen the problem is "real", it will be too late for solutions. We need to do something right now. Besides, I'd argue the problem is starting to be "real" right now. California, Australia, Siberia and Greece were on fire this year, Germany had historic floods and the East Coast keeps getting devastated by hurricanes. I also disagree with the tactic of shifting responsibility to the individual to avoid doing anything where it actually matters. My individual contributions to climate change are negligible, this is a collective issue. We need to get industry and corporations in check and the only way we can do that is with heavy regulation.
- mechanical_bear 5y agoWe are on fire every year. Gross mismanagement has made it worse.
- throwawayboise 5y agoYou're not wrong, but I'm being realistic about human nature. People are not going support heavy regulations that make their lives more difficult and expensive, if they are working 5 or 6 days a week to pay bills and support a family. Some theoretical problem 20 years from now is not high on their list of concerns.
- jtms 5y agoNothing, forward is the only direction to move if we want to have any hope of survival. If we mire ourselves in economic finger pointing we will end up doing nothing about the actual problem
- coldtea 5y agoLet's tax at 50% every private property of a few million. That would do it.
- mcdonje 5y agoSo, a robust carbon tax.
- IncRnd 5y agoThat is economic today for people who rent out the credits that arise by purchasing land then not harvesting the trees. That is economic today for people who claim carbon credits for purchasing new equipment, where the old was at EOL anyway. And so on. The existence of brokers for carbon credit sales should tell you something. For real economic viability that isn't scam-based, something based in reality is needed.
- ryukafalz 5y agoYou're talking about carbon credits, not a carbon tax.
- anonporridge 5y agoI've noticed a trend of people trying to suggest we already have a carbon tax via carbon credits. I'm not sure if they're just confused, or trying to sow misinformation.
- IncRnd 5y agoYou're inventing things out of whole cloth. I simply misread.
- IncRnd 5y agoI read that wrong. Thanks!
- BurningFrog 5y agoThat is the way. It is however politically impossible in most places.
- joe_the_user 5y agoA carbon tax is essentially going to hit the average person hard. Moreover, the average person has a lot of driving they have to do, tax or not. And plenty of rich people could ignore the tax and keep driving. And the political impact would be angry people ready to listen climate deniers. What's needed is a plan to eventually give everyone an electric car or some choice, any choice, that lets them do their daily business with much lower carbon consumption. Maybe taxes can change the behavior of industrial users but for consumers, this is totally daft solution.
- throwaway894345 5y agoIt’s remarkable how effectively the fossil fuel industry has gotten progressive environmentalists to believe that we can solve this problem without carbon tax. The moment you mention how a carbon tax works (that it’s a market mechanism) progressives recoil. When evangelizing to progressives, I try to focus on “making polluters pay for the damage they are doing” (as opposed to making taxpayers bail us out) since they are more likely to be persuaded by appeals to fairness rather than efficacy. Similarly, conservatives recoil at “tax” nomenclature, so when evangelizing to the , I refer to it as “carbon pricing” and emphasize the economic efficiency argument. In either case, we have a long way to go, politically.
- throwawayboise 5y agoThe "polluters" are you and I. We buy the cars, we buy the other things, we use electricity and gas and oil in our homes and cars. We, the consumers, will ultimately pay any carbon taxes. Which may be appropriate, but let's not be unrealistic about who will be paying.
- Swenrekcah 5y agoNot all of it. Some of the tax will have to be eaten by the producers since the market will not tolerate just any price. Then also the tax will make less polluting alternatives more viable and thus likely reducing their price in the long run. And of course, we the public consumers will also benefit the most from making our industries greener and cleaner.
- malermeister 5y ago> We buy the cars Speak for yourself. I haven't owned a car in my life and don't plan to change that.
- mechanical_bear 5y agoOk, but you certainly pollute in other ways.
- coryrc 5y ago> there must be a debt to pay for past ... GHG output A debt which should be paid by past users, not current users who merely share the same country.