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Ask HN: Do you tell your salary to people/family/friends outside your industry?

39 points by tester34 5y ago

Or maybe you lie about it? Or maybe you say that you don't talk about this stuff?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
No one has ever asked me about my pay, but the lower bound is trivial to guess based on how much my house cost (public information accessible in 2 seconds via Redfin or government websites. It is also obvious based on the type, length, and frequency of vacations that one takes. Also, how frequently you fly.
- muzani 5y ago
  Money isn't always the bottleneck. A lot of people generally don't buy the most expensive house/car/vacations they could afford.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Of course, that is why can only get the lower bound information. But for families with kids, they will generally try to max out budget on being in a decent school district, so that is somewhat representative. And people like to treat themselves on vacation, so if they are constantly flying to play golf or resort on tropical islands, you know how much that costs, and hence you know how much it costs to do repeatedly.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  > frequency of vacations that one takes In my experience there is little correlation between this and salary.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    My experience is that higher paid positions have more vacation time, and of course, the person has more money to vacation with. I find that growing up, my extended family used to vacation together more, but now there are groups of cousins that go on vacation together more often simply because they can afford the things they want to do.
    - shapefrog 5y ago
      Must be different in your part of the world. Excluding a few edge cases, everyone (5fig to 7fig salaries) where I work has the same number of holiday days. The more junior people 'holiday' 10-215 times a year, lots of weekends away etc. The mid level typically do the school holiday schedules and the senior staff are all over the place. On the flip side a middle aged neighbour with two kids who makes 30k a year is on their 4th foreign trip this year, while saving up to finish the sleeve they have been working on for the last couple of years.
notreallyserio 5y ago
I don’t and I tell them I don’t want to talk about this stuff. I don’t see any value in my friends and family knowing I make more or less than they do. My friends work at Big Tech and are probably earning more (especially with stock), my family work outside of tech and definitely earn less. I don’t lie about it, though. My memory isn’t the best and it’s likely I’d forget the number I said previously.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  “If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”
JohnFen 5y ago
Honestly, except for my wife (who has to know because of joint finances), I don't think I ever have. Nobody has ever asked me.
craterjens 5y ago
If someone ask me what my salary is I usually say that I have no problem at all sharing what my salary is if I can ask them the same and also agree on keeping it to ourselves.
- tester34 5y ago
  What if you knew that the difference could be e.g 5x or 10x? Wouldn't you be worried that it could affect that friendship?
  - craterjens 5y ago
    5x or 10x is such huge differences that I think we'd already have vastly different lifestyles that putting a number on income wouldn't make a difference. I see the problem you're getting at but I think multiples in the 1.5x to 3x is more sensitive if you and your friend/colleague is in similar industries or not that close/shallow friends.
  - stedman15 5y ago
    Not at all. It's simply a data point. One that could greatly improve your economic circumstances if used correctly.
  - muzani 5y ago
    Everyone calls bullshit on the salary, lol. Especially when they compare it to something like PayScale median salaries. I think you just expect to be called a liar and move on. The other common reaction is that "highly paid jobs are stressful". But my job certainly isn't as stressful as many other jobs, and the pandemic has proven that tech jobs are resilient. I think it triggers a kind of existential crisis in a few people. I've been a little surprised at how much we get paid over smaller entrepreneurs and consultants too. I had a friend who was very convinced of the ESBI Quadrant until I told him my salary.
  - readingnews 5y ago
    I think that questions is interesting because... If you are standing in front of someone who makes 5x or 10x what you do, or vice-versa, you probably know it. I know a group of doctors/lawyers who each make 100X what I do. Literally, they are like super rich with investments and properties and the like. Under all normal circumstances, we would not meet up at a party, or be hanging out in the same "store" for example. My point is, normally, people that make that much more or less than you typically do not dwell in your social circles. None of them would ask me what I make. I would never ask them what they make.
Theoson 5y ago
Lovely
magriz 5y ago
If someone asks and is generally interested, I tell them. I thought about this a lot and concluded that I should not ashamed of my salary and the work I have put in to reach it.
eesmith 5y ago
The asymmetry in market information reduces your ability to negotiate. If you buy into the belief that it should be a taboo topic, you give more power to employers. Salary should be public information, just like it is already in some countries and for government jobs. Here's the salary for the "Ed Smith"s in Florida - https://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=Ed+Smith&by_agency=&by_class_code=&min_salary=0&max_salary=284300 https://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=Ed+Sm... The highest paid is a state judge named "Jared Smith", pulling $165,509.04/year. The only "Edward" earns $113,300.04/year. When I worked at a public university, my salary was public. Remember, in many cases it is illegal for your employer to reprimand you for discussing your salary. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ and Colorado’s 2008 Wage Transparency Act (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/colorado-enacts-law-guaranteeing-employees-right-discuss-their-wages https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/colora... )
- theklr 5y ago
  This is exactly why I share my salary. In order to curb the pay disparities in marginalized groups, we have to be willing to be honest about wages.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I would support legislation to make everyone’s transparent, but I am not going to sacrifice my individual advantage and just hope everyone else does too. Assuming I am above the median.
- wruza 5y ago
  I agree with this in general, but let’s not forget that everyone has a different budget structure and comparing these is apples to oranges. On one hand, that guy has a family and obviously is short on everything, but on the other, this guy has no family and spends on various substituting activities to make up their life. The difference may be 5-10x, but personally I don’t care how much it is to someone, if that is my baseline. It is not like free money, it is like that some people are cash sinks by design and operate out of some negative basis. If they didn’t, they couldn’t be themselves. Also, sudden 10x may destroy your identity in just a year. In my circles it’s called to punch with money. Most people cannot manage that and become hostages of their various delusions.
k4ch0w 5y ago
I tell people in my industry willingly. I don't think it should be secret and it allows other people to barter for what they are worth. I've found the tech salary is much higher than other fields and I've learnt to shut my mouth about it as it can make other people uncomfortable because its 10X what they get.
croo 5y ago
I tell it to friends I know and trust in the industry. Outside of the industry it often causes jealousy and potentially damage relationships with nothing worthwhile to gain of sharing it. So I usually just say how money is never enough, we agree on that and move on.
carom 5y ago
I point people to levels.fyi to give them an understanding of industry comp. I'll tell friends in the industry my salary in a heart beat.
anovikov 5y ago
For some reason, people tend to believe that i make more than i actually do, so i don't tell them the actual number to not disappoint them.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I live in Denmark which is pretty egalitarian. Once a long time ago when I was working for the Danish government and as a consequence earning much less than I do now I was at a party and was having a fun conversation with some guys one of whom was working at a toy store as a shift supervisor, he said yeah it wasn't that great the money but people only make a thousand or two more than him a month and he loved his job (because of the egalitarianism you can be reasonably certain when you are in your mid 20s unmarried and meet someone at a party they earn around what you do - or you could back then as this is about 17 years ago). So when he asked how much I made I innocently answered because I'm an idiot, it turned out I earned 12000 more than him a month. It was sort of awkward and I wished I hadn't said anything.
- deleted 5y ago
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joshstrange 5y ago
I'll truthfully answer anyone that asks but I don't volunteer it to non-tech friends, I don't want to come across as bragging or boastful. For things like raises I always talk in percentages since I know I've gotten raises that are more or very close to what some friends make annually. My goal isn't to obscure but rather I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. For tech friends/coworkers I make it a point to discuss salary. I've had too many coworkers and good friends making way under what they could be. Every time, without fail, that I made assumptions about what a friend was making I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more.
- marktangotango 5y ago
  > I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more. That's considerate of you, but I don't share your concern for two reasons. First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. This is a personal choice they make and it's fine. In fact it's well known phenomenon that's been written about extensively [1]. In my personal network, very few are prone to "job hopping", many stay at the same company on the same apps for 5 or 10+ years. In these cases developers risk skill atrophy, which is a closely related concern. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
  - joshstrange 5y ago
    > First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Yes and no. Yes industry numbers are readily available but I have friends that I consider to be at or above my technical level who suffer from an almost crippling imposter syndrome or "Yeah, maybe in CA but I couldn't get that wage in KY". Also all the companies I choose to work for are smaller (<100 or even <30) and so there is much less data out there on sites like Glassdoor and/or there could be potential backlash for posting your salary since it would be trivial to find out who posted it (even with fudging title/salary). Yes, the backlash would be illegal but it can be extremely hard, if not impossible, to prove and so it's easily to wait till I've left a company for a while before posting that data publicly. > Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. There are absolutely people I've shared info with that decided to stay but I'm much more familiar with "You are making how much? Crap, I need to find a new job". If you are happy where you are and don't want to change then that's fine, I just want people to know what they are worth. Some people get stuck at a place for 5-10+ years and think "Well I couldn't find this salary anywhere else" or "What if I can't learn a new system/language/etc" and in a lot of instance I know these people could do it, it's just fear of the unknown (I'm not going to pretend I don't suffer from this as well).
monster2control 5y ago
All the time. Pay transparency has as a far outreaching effect. I tells students, friends, anyone. Sometimes I feel like I am bragging, but most of the time it's just to highlight what you can make in the tech field and I still feel like I'm paid on the lower end. $118,000 a year in the greater philly area.
todd3834 5y ago
I’m generally a very transparent person. My wife considers me an over sharer. There was a time when I thought it was silly to keep secrets like your salary. However, over the years I’ve seen much more harm than good come from sharing my salary with others. This includes people in the industry because not everyone is at the same level. Here are some examples that taught me to keep my mouth shut: One time I met a friend at church who was also an engineer. I thought it would be fun to invite them to my house some time to hack and collaborate on a side project. It became clear pretty quick that we would not work well together although we could still make great friends. At one point he asked me how much I make. Being a fellow software engineer I didn’t even hesitate to tell them. Their reaction made me very uncomfortable. They were so surprised and they started commenting on how expensive my place is (I was renting a couple rooms in someone else’s house at the time so it didn’t seem extravagant to me). A few weeks later I was at church talking with some friends outside and someone comes up from behind and starts telling, “Don’t talk to this guy! You can’t afford him! Trust me! You can’t afford him”. He was attempting to be funny and possibly even compliment me or brag for me. However it made me extremely uncomfortable and it changed the dynamic of a great conversation we were having prior. One that wasn’t about me at all and I didn’t appreciate the sudden subject change. Another time a friend asked me my salary when I was helping them with their non profit website. When I told them they were floored. They brought it up every time I ever saw them going forward. It seemed so odd that I just stopped hanging out with them. Both of these stories are from almost a decade ago on a startup salary that most people on HN would think was very low. It’s just such a different world than outside our industry still. On the other hand, I’ve also used levels.fyi to help encourage friends and family members to get into software if they express interest but want to know what to expect. I do let people know but the list of people I’m transparent with is very very small now.
- senectus1 5y ago
  its a strange dynamic isn't it. On one hand, seeing a trend of employers demanding you don't talk about your salaries makes me think we should share them more... on the other, yeah I'm a personal person. I really don't want to share this sort of information. I'm a bit of a self rebel. I like to do things that make me uncomfortable if someone expressly forbids me for doing it.
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corobo 5y ago
If they ask aye. Doesn't really come up much
Escapado 5y ago
I'll happily talk about it with everyone who'd like to know. Also I firmly believe I am overpaid (as a freelance software engineer in germany) compared to people in other fields such as for example social workers or most hospital staff and even compared to my employed peers. I find it difficult to express that without it sounding like a brag. This year, so far I have made about 120k Euros (in profit before taxes - will be about 140k by the end of the year) from one full time project in which they couldn't staff enough developers. The FTE in that same project make between 75k and 85k. Talking about it helps me put things into perspective and has led to a few of my colleagues reconsider their employment. Now, having trippled my income by becoming a freelancer has actually not changed my lifestyle at all and I save up about 75-80% of my money to buy a house someday. I have not been met with open toxicity about it yet and I don't expect my current streak of luck to last forever.
- cyberge99 5y ago
  It’s only becomes luck if you stop learning and stop contributing value.
cpach 5y ago
If anyone asks me during conversation, sure, I’ll answer. It can be very hard to find good salary data in my region. So I gladly provide this datapoint to those who ask for it.
kylehotchkiss 5y ago
In my early 20s, I discussed it with friends outside of work in the context that they were also sharing. The friends I shared it with were in good industries and coming about very nearly the same. I wouldn't share it with somebody I wasn't close to. Now that I'm in my late 20s, I won't share it with anybody other than my wife, including future children. Having spent some time in a different culture, and listened to a few too many episodes of the Dateline podcast (it's a thing!), I realize that it really just takes one wrong person finding out to cause a lot of problems in your life.
- yardie 5y ago
  I'm curious what the repercussions of stating your salary to the wrong person is? I used to be embarrassed because I thought others were making more than me based on their purchases.
  - tester756 5y ago
    e.g theft
  - helge9210 5y ago
    For example: a person, representing organized crime group, approaching you, mentioning your SO and/or children and demanding half of your salary monthly or else...
    - yardie 5y ago
      I'm sure this could happen I just don't see how when there are bigger fish such as bankers, lawyers, and doctors. I know people that get this to happen to them. They get a union job contract, the person that got them the job demands a monthly gift. It's not small but it's not half. The else is they don't get anymore work. This scenario is more common in immigrant communities, not Wall Street.
    - foogazi 5y ago
      Where do you live?
1dontknow 5y ago
Yes because I value openness and honesty even when it is uncomfortable sometimes. But only when they ask me and give me a chance to tell them that it doesn't reflect me but mainly the profitable tech industry.
Havoc 5y ago
No because I’m in 1st world and they’re in 3rd so would just make them feel bad about their efforts Some trusted friends and colleagues know though
secondcoming 5y ago
No chance. Nothing good can come of it. In some societies it's just impolite to ask about this anyway.
donatj 5y ago
I have a life long friend I regularly talk about career advancement with, we have for almost twenty years. We know what each other make. He’s honestly like a brother to me. Other than that, it’s only served in my experience to get people asking me for money. In my early 20s, I used to have my parents help me with my taxes. That lead to them regularly pressuring me for money, and being very new to the industry I made a fraction of what I make now. They have no idea what I make now, and I have in recent years put on a bit of a song and dance about how I’m always broke to get them to ask less. A while ago I dated another engineer at my company and at one point I shared what I was making with her. She got very upset. It was a decent chunk more than her, but I had ten years more experience than her. I made a fraction what she was making at her experience level, it seemed more than reasonable to me. She made a fuss about it to HR, it was a mess. Generally I think nothing good comes from sharing your pay. I would avoid it.
shapefrog 5y ago
Yes, when asked I tell them and I dont lie. There are typically 4 reasons someone asks; a) they make a lot and want to have a dick measuring contest, usually in public. The social score I keep for these people drops markedly when this happens. They dont take it very well if they find out they are packing a small one, the ones who take it really badly - the ones you are on the same level as. Often they will masquerade as being in the d) category. b) they make nothing and want to shame you. As bad as a) c) judgement; 'why do you spend so much on X', 'why is your car so shitty', etc. I have might have more contempt for these people than a) or b). They are like financial planners, but unsolicited and shitter. d) they are really wanting advice, or to give advice. Benchmarking salaries, suggesting you are underpaid, asking paths for their children etc. (If your kid wants to know, make the intro and let them have the conversation). These are the good guys, but sadly a very low % of requests. If you close yourself to the first 3 cases (95%) then this very small category, where you can actually make a difference for people goes away too.
GoblinSlayer 5y ago
One policeman was visibly dissatisfied with his salary and asked me how much I earn. I thought "holy shit...", then told my salary when I was hired for the first time. He was greatly pissed off that I told an insufficiently small number.
yardie 5y ago
Yes, I'm unabashedly honest with them. If they are happy with their job me telling them changes nothing for them. If they are looking for a career change it adds a bit of motivation so that investing the time and money in schools or bootcamps is a good investment. If they have a lead that pays above my current salary they know to bring it to me, otherwise they know it's not worth my time; and there are lots of places trying to pay far under market for developers. It helps me advise friends and family so they can watch for opportunities that aren't serious. A job posting 20% under market is a red flag. I was very close to becoming a substitute teacher. Then a teacher shared their salary with me. Even with the all the benefits it still wasn't worth it.
vertis 5y ago
I've always taken the approach of honestly discussing what I make with anyone inside the industry that wants to know. It's better for everyone when there is transparency around salary. Doubly so, when it comes to equal pay discrimination. That's gotten harder and harder the further I've gotten from the "just a software engineer" path. I'm still an advocate for talking about it, even when my data points are not as relevant, in the same way I'm an advocate for open startups (and when my startup makes any money, I'll share :P). Having knowledge around how long it takes to grow something, or how long it takes to walk a career path is very important to decision making.
annie_muss 5y ago
I don't see any point in discussing salary. I know my friends earn more than me. I gain nothing from talking about salary.
toastercat 5y ago
No, only my partner. I'm especially careful about it around family -- I don't even tell my parents. Inevitably, people begin to have expectations of you, whether they think your salary is high or low. I've learned my lesson.
g_sch 5y ago
I talk about it (especially when asked) because I firmly believe I am overpaid relative to the value I (and most tech workers) provide to society. Much of my social circle isn't in the tech industry, and many of them work in nonprofit jobs, the social sector, journalism, or do varying kinds of gig work. I'm actually pretty confident that, given some practice, a little education, and a good grasp of the jargon, many of them could do what I do and make 2-3x what they are making now, but because of the way the career ladder works, it's not a practical option for them. I try to stress that the reason I make so much money has very little to do with how "qualified" or "smart" I am, but much more with how our society has decided to allocate money and prestige.
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swaggyBoatswain 5y ago
I avoid talking about it and expenses in general especially to friends I know that are making making less than 50k a year It stops the dynamic of "oh look he is a fun guy to hang out with" to "dude he makes so much more than me" I've had past dating relationships fail because the girl felt so uncomfortable making min wage around me. Everything just became about money after. She stopped offering to split bills at dates etc. I had to cut it off entirely Growing up, I've lived a fairly poor lifestyle. Most of what I owned were hand me downs and I paid through most of college through side jobs and scholarships. My parents are also really cheap so I didn't live with AC in a hot humid environment most of my life But they like buying nice cars, and I drove that to school everyday since I needed transportation. I got treated like a rich spoiled kid even though I had to work most weekends and summer since 13 on my family's business. That being said, I avoid talking about salary unless someone asks me directly. Even then I won't give a straight answer, I'll just give a large range value and state "this is what people roughly make with my experience" I've had a coworker who worked on the same contract doing the same work at a different firm then us. He asked "yo how much do you guys make". I really wished my coworker didn't answer this since we found out he makes about half of our salary (to be fair he is way more junior though). It's made the work dynamic really weird
bumbada 5y ago
Never. I am from Spain, probably the most envious country in the world. I never talked about money when I was starting my career(and earning way less than my peers, friends and family) and do not talk about it now that I make much more than them. In the US people brag all the time with money. People value other people more because they make money and they value you less if you don't make money. People working in the private sector earn much more that people in the public space. In Spain it is the opposite. Spain today is a socialist State in which public servants earn in average more than 35% than people in the private sector. Everybody wants to be public servant because it is "safe", even when the State is bankrupted and supported by EU deficit that will end sooner than later. In places like Africa, South America or South Asia talking about the money you have is just dangerous. One of my family members had a cocaine bag planted in her luggage in Thailand by the taxi driver. She noticed and trew that away but the police man in the airport knew exactly the specific place where the bag was and searched for it again and again. You better be careful because people like your kids used to the West can really be very stupid in those countries, because they are used to things like a Police system that is not corrupt. I have traveled to many places of the world on my own alone wearing causal clothes and not spending much money that would have been very dangerous if they knew the money that I had in the bank.
wink 5y ago
To friends? Yes. To acquaintances? Probably, in certain settings. To random strangers? No. But I am usually giving ranges, to the best of my knowledge, like "expect 60-70k" for this or that. Also we have some 2-3 pretty good overviews of IT salaries in Germany, and for most people that's kinda correct, as we mostly don't have these weirdly high Valley salaries, so you can easily tell people "you should be making 50k, not 40k" but not "you shouldn't start working fresh out of uni for under 100k".
fatnoah 5y ago
I only share this information anonymously via Blind or similar sites so that others can benefit from salary/job/location information as I have, but I never talk about it with people I know. As others have noted, the potential downside far outweighs the upside.
bravetraveler 5y ago
I'm generally open, but if the conversation is likely to go towards handouts I'll keep quiet. Outside the workplace I lose my main motivator: ensuring we're all getting what we deserve. People like friends/family aren't in the same bucket - so there's less to gain (either for me or them) by sharing this and likely exposing imbalance.
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Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
I try to be very explicit about it. People are afraid for various reasons, either of asking or saying. Consequences are: no idea of home economics (my mother didn't tell me anything about our finances, which weren't bad) and no idea how someone should be marketed. People also choose the job based uniquely on what they like to do most of the times, which is terrible. You can compromise between something you like and something you make good money with, which ends uo with a great rewarding life both personal and professional.

39 points by tester34 5y ago

Or maybe you lie about it? Or maybe you say that you don't talk about this stuff?

No one has ever asked me about my pay, but the lower bound is trivial to guess based on how much my house cost (public information accessible in 2 seconds via Redfin or government websites. It is also obvious based on the type, length, and frequency of vacations that one takes. Also, how frequently you fly.

muzani 5y ago
Money isn't always the bottleneck. A lot of people generally don't buy the most expensive house/car/vacations they could afford.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Of course, that is why can only get the lower bound information. But for families with kids, they will generally try to max out budget on being in a decent school district, so that is somewhat representative. And people like to treat themselves on vacation, so if they are constantly flying to play golf or resort on tropical islands, you know how much that costs, and hence you know how much it costs to do repeatedly.
shapefrog 5y ago
> frequency of vacations that one takes In my experience there is little correlation between this and salary.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  My experience is that higher paid positions have more vacation time, and of course, the person has more money to vacation with. I find that growing up, my extended family used to vacation together more, but now there are groups of cousins that go on vacation together more often simply because they can afford the things they want to do.
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    Must be different in your part of the world. Excluding a few edge cases, everyone (5fig to 7fig salaries) where I work has the same number of holiday days. The more junior people 'holiday' 10-215 times a year, lots of weekends away etc. The mid level typically do the school holiday schedules and the senior staff are all over the place. On the flip side a middle aged neighbour with two kids who makes 30k a year is on their 4th foreign trip this year, while saving up to finish the sleeve they have been working on for the last couple of years.

notreallyserio 5y ago

I don’t and I tell them I don’t want to talk about this stuff. I don’t see any value in my friends and family knowing I make more or less than they do. My friends work at Big Tech and are probably earning more (especially with stock), my family work outside of tech and definitely earn less. I don’t lie about it, though. My memory isn’t the best and it’s likely I’d forget the number I said previously.

shapefrog 5y ago
“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”

JohnFen 5y ago

Honestly, except for my wife (who has to know because of joint finances), I don't think I ever have. Nobody has ever asked me.

craterjens 5y ago

If someone ask me what my salary is I usually say that I have no problem at all sharing what my salary is if I can ask them the same and also agree on keeping it to ourselves.

tester34 5y ago
What if you knew that the difference could be e.g 5x or 10x? Wouldn't you be worried that it could affect that friendship?
- craterjens 5y ago
  5x or 10x is such huge differences that I think we'd already have vastly different lifestyles that putting a number on income wouldn't make a difference. I see the problem you're getting at but I think multiples in the 1.5x to 3x is more sensitive if you and your friend/colleague is in similar industries or not that close/shallow friends.
- stedman15 5y ago
  Not at all. It's simply a data point. One that could greatly improve your economic circumstances if used correctly.
- muzani 5y ago
  Everyone calls bullshit on the salary, lol. Especially when they compare it to something like PayScale median salaries. I think you just expect to be called a liar and move on. The other common reaction is that "highly paid jobs are stressful". But my job certainly isn't as stressful as many other jobs, and the pandemic has proven that tech jobs are resilient. I think it triggers a kind of existential crisis in a few people. I've been a little surprised at how much we get paid over smaller entrepreneurs and consultants too. I had a friend who was very convinced of the ESBI Quadrant until I told him my salary.
- readingnews 5y ago
  I think that questions is interesting because... If you are standing in front of someone who makes 5x or 10x what you do, or vice-versa, you probably know it. I know a group of doctors/lawyers who each make 100X what I do. Literally, they are like super rich with investments and properties and the like. Under all normal circumstances, we would not meet up at a party, or be hanging out in the same "store" for example. My point is, normally, people that make that much more or less than you typically do not dwell in your social circles. None of them would ask me what I make. I would never ask them what they make.

Theoson 5y ago

Lovely

magriz 5y ago

If someone asks and is generally interested, I tell them. I thought about this a lot and concluded that I should not ashamed of my salary and the work I have put in to reach it.

eesmith 5y ago

The asymmetry in market information reduces your ability to negotiate. If you buy into the belief that it should be a taboo topic, you give more power to employers. Salary should be public information, just like it is already in some countries and for government jobs. Here's the salary for the "Ed Smith"s in Florida - https://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=Ed+Smith&by_agency=&by_class_code=&min_salary=0&max_salary=284300 https://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=Ed+Sm... The highest paid is a state judge named "Jared Smith", pulling $165,509.04/year. The only "Edward" earns $113,300.04/year. When I worked at a public university, my salary was public. Remember, in many cases it is illegal for your employer to reprimand you for discussing your salary. https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ and Colorado’s 2008 Wage Transparency Act (https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/colorado-enacts-law-guaranteeing-employees-right-discuss-their-wages https://www.littler.com/publication-press/publication/colora... )

theklr 5y ago
This is exactly why I share my salary. In order to curb the pay disparities in marginalized groups, we have to be willing to be honest about wages.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I would support legislation to make everyone’s transparent, but I am not going to sacrifice my individual advantage and just hope everyone else does too. Assuming I am above the median.
wruza 5y ago
I agree with this in general, but let’s not forget that everyone has a different budget structure and comparing these is apples to oranges. On one hand, that guy has a family and obviously is short on everything, but on the other, this guy has no family and spends on various substituting activities to make up their life. The difference may be 5-10x, but personally I don’t care how much it is to someone, if that is my baseline. It is not like free money, it is like that some people are cash sinks by design and operate out of some negative basis. If they didn’t, they couldn’t be themselves. Also, sudden 10x may destroy your identity in just a year. In my circles it’s called to punch with money. Most people cannot manage that and become hostages of their various delusions.

k4ch0w 5y ago

I tell people in my industry willingly. I don't think it should be secret and it allows other people to barter for what they are worth. I've found the tech salary is much higher than other fields and I've learnt to shut my mouth about it as it can make other people uncomfortable because its 10X what they get.

croo 5y ago

I tell it to friends I know and trust in the industry. Outside of the industry it often causes jealousy and potentially damage relationships with nothing worthwhile to gain of sharing it. So I usually just say how money is never enough, we agree on that and move on.

carom 5y ago

I point people to levels.fyi to give them an understanding of industry comp. I'll tell friends in the industry my salary in a heart beat.

anovikov 5y ago

For some reason, people tend to believe that i make more than i actually do, so i don't tell them the actual number to not disappoint them.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

I live in Denmark which is pretty egalitarian. Once a long time ago when I was working for the Danish government and as a consequence earning much less than I do now I was at a party and was having a fun conversation with some guys one of whom was working at a toy store as a shift supervisor, he said yeah it wasn't that great the money but people only make a thousand or two more than him a month and he loved his job (because of the egalitarianism you can be reasonably certain when you are in your mid 20s unmarried and meet someone at a party they earn around what you do - or you could back then as this is about 17 years ago). So when he asked how much I made I innocently answered because I'm an idiot, it turned out I earned 12000 more than him a month. It was sort of awkward and I wished I hadn't said anything.

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joshstrange 5y ago

I'll truthfully answer anyone that asks but I don't volunteer it to non-tech friends, I don't want to come across as bragging or boastful. For things like raises I always talk in percentages since I know I've gotten raises that are more or very close to what some friends make annually. My goal isn't to obscure but rather I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. For tech friends/coworkers I make it a point to discuss salary. I've had too many coworkers and good friends making way under what they could be. Every time, without fail, that I made assumptions about what a friend was making I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more.

marktangotango 5y ago
> I was extremely wrong and even felt a little guilty that I didn't bring it up sooner since they can and should be making more. That's considerate of you, but I don't share your concern for two reasons. First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. This is a personal choice they make and it's fine. In fact it's well known phenomenon that's been written about extensively [1]. In my personal network, very few are prone to "job hopping", many stay at the same company on the same apps for 5 or 10+ years. In these cases developers risk skill atrophy, which is a closely related concern. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
- joshstrange 5y ago
  > First data is readily available, so if they want to know they can. Yes and no. Yes industry numbers are readily available but I have friends that I consider to be at or above my technical level who suffer from an almost crippling imposter syndrome or "Yeah, maybe in CA but I couldn't get that wage in KY". Also all the companies I choose to work for are smaller (<100 or even <30) and so there is much less data out there on sites like Glassdoor and/or there could be potential backlash for posting your salary since it would be trivial to find out who posted it (even with fudging title/salary). Yes, the backlash would be illegal but it can be extremely hard, if not impossible, to prove and so it's easily to wait till I've left a company for a while before posting that data publicly. > Secondly I've found that in general people value familiarity and stability more than maximizing salary. There are absolutely people I've shared info with that decided to stay but I'm much more familiar with "You are making how much? Crap, I need to find a new job". If you are happy where you are and don't want to change then that's fine, I just want people to know what they are worth. Some people get stuck at a place for 5-10+ years and think "Well I couldn't find this salary anywhere else" or "What if I can't learn a new system/language/etc" and in a lot of instance I know these people could do it, it's just fear of the unknown (I'm not going to pretend I don't suffer from this as well).

monster2control 5y ago

All the time. Pay transparency has as a far outreaching effect. I tells students, friends, anyone. Sometimes I feel like I am bragging, but most of the time it's just to highlight what you can make in the tech field and I still feel like I'm paid on the lower end. $118,000 a year in the greater philly area.

todd3834 5y ago

I’m generally a very transparent person. My wife considers me an over sharer. There was a time when I thought it was silly to keep secrets like your salary. However, over the years I’ve seen much more harm than good come from sharing my salary with others. This includes people in the industry because not everyone is at the same level. Here are some examples that taught me to keep my mouth shut: One time I met a friend at church who was also an engineer. I thought it would be fun to invite them to my house some time to hack and collaborate on a side project. It became clear pretty quick that we would not work well together although we could still make great friends. At one point he asked me how much I make. Being a fellow software engineer I didn’t even hesitate to tell them. Their reaction made me very uncomfortable. They were so surprised and they started commenting on how expensive my place is (I was renting a couple rooms in someone else’s house at the time so it didn’t seem extravagant to me). A few weeks later I was at church talking with some friends outside and someone comes up from behind and starts telling, “Don’t talk to this guy! You can’t afford him! Trust me! You can’t afford him”. He was attempting to be funny and possibly even compliment me or brag for me. However it made me extremely uncomfortable and it changed the dynamic of a great conversation we were having prior. One that wasn’t about me at all and I didn’t appreciate the sudden subject change. Another time a friend asked me my salary when I was helping them with their non profit website. When I told them they were floored. They brought it up every time I ever saw them going forward. It seemed so odd that I just stopped hanging out with them. Both of these stories are from almost a decade ago on a startup salary that most people on HN would think was very low. It’s just such a different world than outside our industry still. On the other hand, I’ve also used levels.fyi to help encourage friends and family members to get into software if they express interest but want to know what to expect. I do let people know but the list of people I’m transparent with is very very small now.

senectus1 5y ago
its a strange dynamic isn't it. On one hand, seeing a trend of employers demanding you don't talk about your salaries makes me think we should share them more... on the other, yeah I'm a personal person. I really don't want to share this sort of information. I'm a bit of a self rebel. I like to do things that make me uncomfortable if someone expressly forbids me for doing it.

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corobo 5y ago

If they ask aye. Doesn't really come up much

Escapado 5y ago

I'll happily talk about it with everyone who'd like to know. Also I firmly believe I am overpaid (as a freelance software engineer in germany) compared to people in other fields such as for example social workers or most hospital staff and even compared to my employed peers. I find it difficult to express that without it sounding like a brag. This year, so far I have made about 120k Euros (in profit before taxes - will be about 140k by the end of the year) from one full time project in which they couldn't staff enough developers. The FTE in that same project make between 75k and 85k. Talking about it helps me put things into perspective and has led to a few of my colleagues reconsider their employment. Now, having trippled my income by becoming a freelancer has actually not changed my lifestyle at all and I save up about 75-80% of my money to buy a house someday. I have not been met with open toxicity about it yet and I don't expect my current streak of luck to last forever.

cyberge99 5y ago
It’s only becomes luck if you stop learning and stop contributing value.

cpach 5y ago

If anyone asks me during conversation, sure, I’ll answer. It can be very hard to find good salary data in my region. So I gladly provide this datapoint to those who ask for it.

kylehotchkiss 5y ago

In my early 20s, I discussed it with friends outside of work in the context that they were also sharing. The friends I shared it with were in good industries and coming about very nearly the same. I wouldn't share it with somebody I wasn't close to. Now that I'm in my late 20s, I won't share it with anybody other than my wife, including future children. Having spent some time in a different culture, and listened to a few too many episodes of the Dateline podcast (it's a thing!), I realize that it really just takes one wrong person finding out to cause a lot of problems in your life.

yardie 5y ago
I'm curious what the repercussions of stating your salary to the wrong person is? I used to be embarrassed because I thought others were making more than me based on their purchases.
- tester756 5y ago
  e.g theft
- helge9210 5y ago
  For example: a person, representing organized crime group, approaching you, mentioning your SO and/or children and demanding half of your salary monthly or else...
  - yardie 5y ago
    I'm sure this could happen I just don't see how when there are bigger fish such as bankers, lawyers, and doctors. I know people that get this to happen to them. They get a union job contract, the person that got them the job demands a monthly gift. It's not small but it's not half. The else is they don't get anymore work. This scenario is more common in immigrant communities, not Wall Street.
  - foogazi 5y ago
    Where do you live?

1dontknow 5y ago

Yes because I value openness and honesty even when it is uncomfortable sometimes. But only when they ask me and give me a chance to tell them that it doesn't reflect me but mainly the profitable tech industry.

Havoc 5y ago

No because I’m in 1st world and they’re in 3rd so would just make them feel bad about their efforts Some trusted friends and colleagues know though

secondcoming 5y ago

No chance. Nothing good can come of it. In some societies it's just impolite to ask about this anyway.

donatj 5y ago

I have a life long friend I regularly talk about career advancement with, we have for almost twenty years. We know what each other make. He’s honestly like a brother to me. Other than that, it’s only served in my experience to get people asking me for money. In my early 20s, I used to have my parents help me with my taxes. That lead to them regularly pressuring me for money, and being very new to the industry I made a fraction of what I make now. They have no idea what I make now, and I have in recent years put on a bit of a song and dance about how I’m always broke to get them to ask less. A while ago I dated another engineer at my company and at one point I shared what I was making with her. She got very upset. It was a decent chunk more than her, but I had ten years more experience than her. I made a fraction what she was making at her experience level, it seemed more than reasonable to me. She made a fuss about it to HR, it was a mess. Generally I think nothing good comes from sharing your pay. I would avoid it.

shapefrog 5y ago

Yes, when asked I tell them and I dont lie. There are typically 4 reasons someone asks; a) they make a lot and want to have a dick measuring contest, usually in public. The social score I keep for these people drops markedly when this happens. They dont take it very well if they find out they are packing a small one, the ones who take it really badly - the ones you are on the same level as. Often they will masquerade as being in the d) category. b) they make nothing and want to shame you. As bad as a) c) judgement; 'why do you spend so much on X', 'why is your car so shitty', etc. I have might have more contempt for these people than a) or b). They are like financial planners, but unsolicited and shitter. d) they are really wanting advice, or to give advice. Benchmarking salaries, suggesting you are underpaid, asking paths for their children etc. (If your kid wants to know, make the intro and let them have the conversation). These are the good guys, but sadly a very low % of requests. If you close yourself to the first 3 cases (95%) then this very small category, where you can actually make a difference for people goes away too.

GoblinSlayer 5y ago

One policeman was visibly dissatisfied with his salary and asked me how much I earn. I thought "holy shit...", then told my salary when I was hired for the first time. He was greatly pissed off that I told an insufficiently small number.

yardie 5y ago

Yes, I'm unabashedly honest with them. If they are happy with their job me telling them changes nothing for them. If they are looking for a career change it adds a bit of motivation so that investing the time and money in schools or bootcamps is a good investment. If they have a lead that pays above my current salary they know to bring it to me, otherwise they know it's not worth my time; and there are lots of places trying to pay far under market for developers. It helps me advise friends and family so they can watch for opportunities that aren't serious. A job posting 20% under market is a red flag. I was very close to becoming a substitute teacher. Then a teacher shared their salary with me. Even with the all the benefits it still wasn't worth it.

vertis 5y ago

I've always taken the approach of honestly discussing what I make with anyone inside the industry that wants to know. It's better for everyone when there is transparency around salary. Doubly so, when it comes to equal pay discrimination. That's gotten harder and harder the further I've gotten from the "just a software engineer" path. I'm still an advocate for talking about it, even when my data points are not as relevant, in the same way I'm an advocate for open startups (and when my startup makes any money, I'll share :P). Having knowledge around how long it takes to grow something, or how long it takes to walk a career path is very important to decision making.

annie_muss 5y ago

I don't see any point in discussing salary. I know my friends earn more than me. I gain nothing from talking about salary.

toastercat 5y ago

No, only my partner. I'm especially careful about it around family -- I don't even tell my parents. Inevitably, people begin to have expectations of you, whether they think your salary is high or low. I've learned my lesson.

g_sch 5y ago

I talk about it (especially when asked) because I firmly believe I am overpaid relative to the value I (and most tech workers) provide to society. Much of my social circle isn't in the tech industry, and many of them work in nonprofit jobs, the social sector, journalism, or do varying kinds of gig work. I'm actually pretty confident that, given some practice, a little education, and a good grasp of the jargon, many of them could do what I do and make 2-3x what they are making now, but because of the way the career ladder works, it's not a practical option for them. I try to stress that the reason I make so much money has very little to do with how "qualified" or "smart" I am, but much more with how our society has decided to allocate money and prestige.

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swaggyBoatswain 5y ago

I avoid talking about it and expenses in general especially to friends I know that are making making less than 50k a year It stops the dynamic of "oh look he is a fun guy to hang out with" to "dude he makes so much more than me" I've had past dating relationships fail because the girl felt so uncomfortable making min wage around me. Everything just became about money after. She stopped offering to split bills at dates etc. I had to cut it off entirely Growing up, I've lived a fairly poor lifestyle. Most of what I owned were hand me downs and I paid through most of college through side jobs and scholarships. My parents are also really cheap so I didn't live with AC in a hot humid environment most of my life But they like buying nice cars, and I drove that to school everyday since I needed transportation. I got treated like a rich spoiled kid even though I had to work most weekends and summer since 13 on my family's business. That being said, I avoid talking about salary unless someone asks me directly. Even then I won't give a straight answer, I'll just give a large range value and state "this is what people roughly make with my experience" I've had a coworker who worked on the same contract doing the same work at a different firm then us. He asked "yo how much do you guys make". I really wished my coworker didn't answer this since we found out he makes about half of our salary (to be fair he is way more junior though). It's made the work dynamic really weird

bumbada 5y ago

Never. I am from Spain, probably the most envious country in the world. I never talked about money when I was starting my career(and earning way less than my peers, friends and family) and do not talk about it now that I make much more than them. In the US people brag all the time with money. People value other people more because they make money and they value you less if you don't make money. People working in the private sector earn much more that people in the public space. In Spain it is the opposite. Spain today is a socialist State in which public servants earn in average more than 35% than people in the private sector. Everybody wants to be public servant because it is "safe", even when the State is bankrupted and supported by EU deficit that will end sooner than later. In places like Africa, South America or South Asia talking about the money you have is just dangerous. One of my family members had a cocaine bag planted in her luggage in Thailand by the taxi driver. She noticed and trew that away but the police man in the airport knew exactly the specific place where the bag was and searched for it again and again. You better be careful because people like your kids used to the West can really be very stupid in those countries, because they are used to things like a Police system that is not corrupt. I have traveled to many places of the world on my own alone wearing causal clothes and not spending much money that would have been very dangerous if they knew the money that I had in the bank.

wink 5y ago

To friends? Yes. To acquaintances? Probably, in certain settings. To random strangers? No. But I am usually giving ranges, to the best of my knowledge, like "expect 60-70k" for this or that. Also we have some 2-3 pretty good overviews of IT salaries in Germany, and for most people that's kinda correct, as we mostly don't have these weirdly high Valley salaries, so you can easily tell people "you should be making 50k, not 40k" but not "you shouldn't start working fresh out of uni for under 100k".

fatnoah 5y ago

I only share this information anonymously via Blind or similar sites so that others can benefit from salary/job/location information as I have, but I never talk about it with people I know. As others have noted, the potential downside far outweighs the upside.

bravetraveler 5y ago

I'm generally open, but if the conversation is likely to go towards handouts I'll keep quiet. Outside the workplace I lose my main motivator: ensuring we're all getting what we deserve. People like friends/family aren't in the same bucket - so there's less to gain (either for me or them) by sharing this and likely exposing imbalance.

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Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago

I try to be very explicit about it. People are afraid for various reasons, either of asking or saying. Consequences are: no idea of home economics (my mother didn't tell me anything about our finances, which weren't bad) and no idea how someone should be marketed. People also choose the job based uniquely on what they like to do most of the times, which is terrible. You can compromise between something you like and something you make good money with, which ends uo with a great rewarding life both personal and professional.