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Multiple commenters have observed that Tesla faces increasing competition from Ford, Porsche, and others. But I don't think it's obvious at all that competitors

Multiple commenters have observed that Tesla faces increasing competition from Ford, Porsche, and others. But I don't think it's obvious at all that competitors can catch up: * Autopilot. Safe or not, autopilot is very convenient and super permissive, and owners seem to love it. * Superchargers. Third party charger maintenance is an unsolved problem, and CCS DC fast chargers are often broken, where they exist at all. It's truly awful. Maybe the federal government will bail out Ford here with a charging infrastructure program... or maybe not. * Status symbol. There's a reason Tesla has replaced Cadillac as a symbol of luxury in pop culture. * The Model 3/Y itself is a smooth, luxurious and fast ride. Don't discount the car's ability to compete on the traditional merits. (Edit: this is my opinion, based on comparing a Model 3 to a 3 series as well as various Nissan cars. YMMV; it's subjective.)

cavisne 5y ago
> Maybe the federal government will bail out Ford here with a charging infrastructure program Even if they did I don't think it would help. DC chargers are fundamentally a construction project. Tesla Supercharger locations often get delayed for months/years as they hit roadblocks like permits, disputes with landowners, shortages. So it's still going to be years before CCS chargers match the footprint. If/when Tesla opens up their network it could help a lot though.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  The number of CCS plugs in North America is currently at 70% of the number of Tesla plugs: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html CCS plugs will overtake Tesla plugs eventually. Tesla putting CCS plugs on their chargers will make it happen faster.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> There's a reason Tesla has replaced Cadillac as a symbol of luxury in pop culture. Cadillac hasn't been the symbol of luxury in pop culture for a few decades now. Lexus and the German up brands (BMW, Mercedes, Audi if not in the USA) are much more pervasive.
zz865 5y ago
Teslas are ugly and boring. The model S might have been status symbol a few years back but they're now the modern Honda.
clouddrover 5y ago
> But I don't think it's obvious at all that competitors can catch up They are catching up as evidenced by Tesla losing market share. It's not a very surprising result. As other manufacturers ramp up EV production they will gain EV market share because not everyone wants the same car. Tesla is no longer a leader in EV technology. Lucid's and Hyundai's EV platforms, for example, offer options that Tesla doesn't. Have a look at Europe. In 2019 Tesla had 30.8% market share: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2019 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2019 So far in 2021 Tesla has 14.2% market share: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021
- simondotau 5y ago
  Tesla are not losing market share of total passenger vehicle sales. That's the only number that matters.
  - skohan 5y ago
    It's still an important sign in terms of where Tesla will end up in the overall market. Tesla is a tiny player in terms of overall sales, so a 50% YOY growth in marketshare is still possible. If they're also experiencing a 50% decrease in the share of new EV's sold, that's not a sign that they will dominate the EV market as their current valuation would suggest.
- pokerhobo 5y ago
  It doesn’t matter if Tesla is losing marketshare if they continue to grow deliveries >50% year over year while being production constrained
  - skohan 5y ago
    How long do you think they can realistically maintain a 50% YOY growth rate in deliveries? They're small enough now that 50% growth is very attainable, but that doesn't mean it's sustainable.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
HWR_14 5y ago
None of those seem terribly good differentiators: Autopilot - They don't seem particularly advanced, and there are two main types of drivers. Those who never use autopilot (so it's not a selling feature) and those who overrely on it (which leads to crashes, bad PR and lawsuits) Superchargers - Musk says they're going to open it up to all EVs by 2022. Status Symbol - Where are you that a Tesla is a status symbol? I mean, for a while it was because it was the only EV, but now that there are competitors it seems to be losing out. Luxurious ride - I've only been in Model 3s, but it didn't seem that luxurious. Plenty powerful, but I expect that to be true of any EV. The fit and finish didn't strike me as on par with, say, a 'vette. Certainly, if you compare it to cheaper cars it should stack up (isn't a Model 3 still more expensive than a 3 series?). But against comparably priced cars, it seems to lose out. I will admit that I find the giant touchscreen a huge turnoff. So it's possible that I am overly harsh on the luxuriousness.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > They don't seem particularly advanced, and there are two main types of drivers. Those who never use autopilot (so it's not a selling feature) and those who overrely on it (which leads to crashes, bad PR and lawsuits) Isn't that fairly biased? There is surely a group of people who use AutoPilot not overly in irresponsible ways, but because the media is selection biased to bad outcomes, we never hear about them.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    I'm sure it's biased - it's based on the people I know and the people who make the news. Those are two non-random samples. Although, my two groups aren't the same as the two groups I put forward. IIRC, there were a lot of FSD purchasers upset because they feel like they didn't get what they paid for in the news.
- sliken 5y ago
  I've had a model 3 for almost 2 years, I consider the autopilot a toy. Superchargers are a huge advantage today, Tesla may partner with others to open their network, but they are going to charge, so it's far from apparent which cars will have access. Status symbol, could care less. My previous cars were an Acura GSR (somewhat legendary when it came out for how ugly it was), Subaru WRX (quick, but ugly), forester (even uglier). I was shopping for something quick, fun, and RWD or AWD. Considered Golf R, Ford Focus RS, Subaru WRX/STI, various BMWs (1 series, 2 series, x1, m235i, etc), and Teslas. Luxury ride. I've a Model 3P, 0-60 in 3 seconds, decent lap times at various tracks, and pretty competitive with today's semi-exotic rear engine corvette (0-60 in 2.9 seconds), and will beat quite a few of the corvette's on the road today in a 0-60. Not going to hang on a track with a new rear engine corvette. But way more practical, even pretty large costco trips can fit in a model 3 easily. Driving cross country with a kid, dog, and partner works well. I cross shopped BMWs and model 3's. Ended up with the Telsa because of it delivering performance similar to some of the fastest BMWs (M3, m235i, etc), and the practicalities of a their larger/slower cars like the 335/x3. Without all the maze of expensive upgrades that BMW plays. Things like intentionally degrading the standard headlights to be significantly worse than a prius unless you pay a few $k for the good headlights. You know it's bad when the NHTSA has to embarass BMW and deny them the safety ratings until fixed. Seats that you have to pay for to fold down or have a ski passthru. Not to mention the new "wonder" 4 cyclinders (2 liter ish, turbo, 16v, etc) are getting pretty famous for exploding and leaving behind $30k engine repairs and BMW significantly shortening their engine warranties on their CPO cars. I admit the giant touch screen was a turnoff at first, but now that I'm used to a giant map with working pinch/zoom and as responsive as a decent phone. I recently sat in a late modem 3 series and was pretty disappointed with the map/nav/entertainment system. It's really nice to have a giant responsive map (or sat mode if you prefer) built in. I'd much rather have that then a standard cockpit with a tiny map screen, often with the old/slow/gross capacitive touch screens that don't even allow pinch/zoom.
brandonmenc 5y ago
> Don't discount the car's ability to compete on the traditional merits. I sat in a friend's brand new Tesla recently and I had to bite my tongue because the interior just seemed... cheap. Like, felt stretched over plastic cheap. Microsoft brown Zune cheap. And not even in the same league as my Mazda, let alone something like a Mercedes.
ghostpepper 5y ago
> comparing a Model 3 to a 3 series as well as various Nissan cars I know this is your subjective opinion, but I just thought you might be interested to know that Nissan is not well regarded by car enthusiasts (their one sports car notwithstanding). A more fair comparison might be one of the luxury German brands like BMW or Mercedes, or if comparing EVs, the new Ford Mach-E.
Hypx_ 5y ago
The one threat they cannot win against is if batteries become obsolete in the face of advances of hydrogen fuel cell technology. This represents a disruptive event, and something they cannot easily fight against.
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  Hydrogen Fuel Cells!? Yeah. Right after cold fusion. Hell freezing over. And pigs flying.
  - Hypx_ 5y ago
    Unlike the others hydrogen fuel cells are already here.
    - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
      Thats the first sign of their failure. Hydrogen EROI is negative at 1:4 or 1:5.
      - Hypx_ 5y ago
        All vehicles are "negative." This doesn't make sense as a metric.
  - skohan 5y ago
    You can already own a fuel cell car in California
- skohan 5y ago
  If I recall correctly, the math for fuel cells doesn't really work out. It's more efficient to charge a battery directly than to use energy to create hydrogen and then to convert it back into electricity. There are certain use-cases where you might want it, but probably most of the cars of the future should be battery-based EV's.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pbreit 5y ago
Screams for an Apple comparison. Sure, there are plenty of competitive devices. But iPhone dominates the mind-share and profit-share.
beamatronic 5y ago
Autopilot was not a factor in my decision to purchase a Tesla. I don’t use it.
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
I don't know if your a fanboy or not, but personally I don't think Teslas are luxury symbols, maybe they're status symbols for environmentally conscious people, or the subset of them who can afford Teslas. I think anyone buying a Tesla because s/he wants to show off being rich would be similar to the kind of people who buy Trump-branded products because they think that brand is a symbol of wealth/luxury.
gjs278 5y ago
tesla will also be getting CCS adapters soon
gonehome 5y ago
I agree, and I think it's software - legacy companies suck at software and it's hard to become good at it. Tesla is a software company that makes cars and they've gotten pretty good at making great cars. The legacy car companies mostly make crap and their software is universally terrible*. In addition to that they're constrained by the awful dealership system and all the bad incentives associated with that. I don't expect any of them to offer any serious competition. *Maybe a notable exception here for Cruise which was bought by GM, but they're relegated to just one trim level on one car iirc which suggests GM doesn't recognize the threat. They also focus on high-res mapping which Tesla argues is a dead end. It's also only a subset of the problem, the car's UI systems remain bad.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Another great software anecdote. During this chip shortage due to supply chain issues, Tesla sourced some alternate chips and updated their software in a few weeks to accommodate. Meanwhile the GMs & Fords of the world have spun down factories & sent workers home, not having the same agility.
  - moffkalast 5y ago
    > not having the same agility More like for not being able to port their cobol-ass running UI for anything but the one target chip it was developed for lmao.
    - caf 5y ago
      Probably they asked the contract software supplier what it would take, and got an answer back with too many years in the schedule and too many $ on the bottom line.
  - tziki 5y ago
    It's not about agility, it's about other manufacturers wanting a tried and tested chip design they know will last. Tesla is more willing to gamble, although they also removed radar from their cars to reduce the need for chips.
tills13 5y ago
re: Superchargers I would love to be able to even consider another brand of electric car for my next one but given where I live (Vancouver Island), I just cannot. Sure, 3rd party L3 and L2 chargers around me are fine for going around town and maybe up-island, but I cannot reasonably say the same for longer trips. I just came back from a 3k KM roadtrip to Calgary and back and I honestly do not think it would be possible (at least, not in a reasonable amount of time) with any other car. The infrastructure is just not there. With my Tesla (SR+), the stops were like those you'd have in any other car - stopping here and there to eat and use the restroom. The car and the chargers worked flawlessly. It really is the killer-app for Tesla.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  I believe that Petro Canada has the Trans Canada fully connected with chargers, so that trip should have been possible with a different EV.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > I just came back from a 3k KM roadtrip to Calgary and back and I honestly do not think it would be possible (at least, not in a reasonable amount of time) with any other car. A Better Routeplanner (https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) is a good tool for getting an idea of what roadtrips are like in different EVs. ABRP says Vancouver Island to Calgary in a Ford Mustang Mach-E Extended Range RWD takes 18 hours and 12 minutes. 2 hours and 8 minutes of that time is charging. A 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+ with 18" aero wheels takes 17 hours and 56 minutes. 1 hour and 34 minutes is charging. A Kia EV6 Long Range RWD takes 17 hours and 22 minutes. 1 hour and 18 minutes is charging. A Lucid Air Dream Edition takes 16 hours and 59 minutes. 1 hour and 1 minute is charging.
  - simondotau 5y ago
    Deleted.
    - clouddrover 5y ago
      > It's worth noting that neither the Kia EV6 nor the Lucid Air have shipped a single unit to customers, so the above are only promises based on the optimistic claims of manufacturers. False. The EV6 is shipping in Korea and Europe right now. North America to follow. But let's do some different cars since you're distressed: - Volkswagen ID.4 Pro is 18 hours and 4 minutes. - Porsche Taycan 4S 93 kWh is 17 hours 56 minutes. - Audi e-tron 55 is 17 hours 50 minutes. > This video by Marques Brownlee is an interesting example That is not a road trip from Vancouver Island to Calgary, which is what we're talking about. Do you have any specific information about driving from Vancouver Island to Calgary in particular?
gitfan86 5y ago
The book, The Innovator's Dilemma, totally changed how I view situations like this. Logically it makes sense that Ford or GM could use their existing resources to build a electric car factory, and use their existing dealerships to sell those cars under their existing brand. But in reality those existing assets are why GM and Ford cannot catch up. Dealerships make money on services and maintenance. They don't want to sell an Electric that will never need much maintenance. Trying to convert a factory that was designed for ICE cars isn't as easy as building a new factory. And the union employees that have specialized in ICE parts do not want to switch over to Electric. So GM will end up delaying plans so long that they will not be able to compete on price due to Tesla's existing economies of scale. It was obvious in 2012 that Tesla was a threat to ICE, GM and Ford have done very little since then to catch up.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  The problem is that now it's hydrogen's turn to do the same with batteries. Tesla is facing it's own disruptive threat, something it is completely unprepared to deal with.
  - gjm11 5y ago
    You have made this and similar claims over and over again on HN, but you seem much more interested in making such claims than in supporting them, and your response when challenged has mostly been just to reiterate your statements that hydrogen fuel cells are better (for energy storage in cars) than batteries, or are inevitably going to replace batteries. It reads more like advertising than like actual discussion. What evidence is there that should lead us to expect hydrogen fuel cells to win over batteries, given (1) their currently much much higher costs, (2) their lower efficiency in turning electricity at the power station into kinetic energy of the car, (3) the currently much greater complexity of mechanisms required for a fuel-cell-based vehicle?
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      (2) doesn't seem relevant, as generating hydrogen happens whenever electricity is cheap and charging cars happen whenever the care pulls up. Other that that, I thought hydrogen was cheaper than batteries. But I don't know much about it.
olyjohn 5y ago
These points are getting tired. It feels like people who pay attention to Tesla pay attention to no other cars. * Nearly every manufacturer has an Autopilot equivalent that is as good or better. * Superchargers will be open to all EVs. There is massive investment in charging networks. They should not be proprietary anyways if we truly want EV adoption. * F-150 has been the best selling vehicle for years. As far as vehicles go, it doesn't need to be a status symbol to sell. * Lots of cars are smooth, luxurious and fast. This has been a solved problem for years.
- aluminum96 5y ago
  Perhaps, but I'm just trying to post-hoc explain why Tesla seems to be outselling the competition. Also, have you considered that Autopilot is less about the quality and more about the permissiveness? Volvo sells lane keeping software that works just as well if not better, but it requires me to look at the road and keep my hands on the wheel. Tesla has no such scruples -- arguably a bad thing, but drivers seem to like it. Maybe it's the "Uber model" of self-driving: ship it early, break all the rules, but satisfy your customers.
  - Smashure 5y ago
    My volvo has no requirement to look at the road and I can let go of the wheel just as long as I can in my Tesla. My Volvo is better than my Model Y in every way except range. And it’s cheaper because of the tax credit.
  - flutas 5y ago
    > it requires me to look at the road and keep my hands on the wheel. Tesla has no such scruples Note that for Model 3/Y with in-cabin cameras that’s changing with the rollout of their FSD beta software. It instantly goes to “oh crap grab the wheel” alerts if you cover the camera or play with your phone.
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> The Model 3/Y itself is a smooth, luxurious and fast ride. They're not luxurious though, even though the price is quite steep. Tesla cars may be way better EVs than the competition but I'd really suggest anyone thinking a Tesla is luxurious to go and sit in a Porsche Taycan (which, btw, is not that much more pricey than a Model S).
- xeromal 5y ago
  Yeah, I have a model s and it's a solid ride but there are better luxury cars out there for the same price. What you can't beat though is absolute performance and honestly software. It's pretty neat to get OTA updates
kart23 5y ago
I rode in a model 3. The ride is awful for a normal family car, as well as the road/wind noise. The owner admitted as much, terrible for the ~50k they paid for it. It's not a luxury car. The status symbol is changing as well. As more people experience them , they quickly realize that compared to BMW & Porsche, they're not that special past the shiny iPad on the dash.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  It's the Tacoma of commuter sedans this is to be expected. They're selling an image. The car is just a vehicle for that image.
- speedgoose 5y ago
  The road noise has been improved a lot on the newer model 3 though. It's still not a very silent car but it's now normal.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Indeed, they have always been quiet, but it makes wind noise more noticeable not having any engine noise. One big change is from switching the regular glass with thicker "acoustic" glass that's better at damping the wind noise. Also some changes where the glass meets on the roof and the model Y has larger roof glass so less seams.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I have an older Model S, drove a Model 3 last week, and experienced an extremely smooth and quiet drive, basically free of NVH complaints. Will be trading in soon.
- xeromal 5y ago
  The ride is dogshit in the model 3 and model y but you're not buying a luxury car when you buy one of those. Most of that money is tied into the software and the battery. Not amenities.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
mirchiseth 5y ago
- Superchargers I made a San Jose <--> Portland trip recently and their importance and convenience was etched in my mind forever. I was really surprised with the one in Laytonville, CA. - Regular software updates over the air is also a superpower. I am not sure if other car makers have them.
IAmGraydon 5y ago
I think the real reason that Tesla is successful is because they do it all with a certain swagger that is embodied in Elon and is utterly magnetic to potential buyers. This is the same type of magnetism that Apple had in the years with Steve Jobs. The other guys are suits and they’re jeans and tshirts. The other guys are the establishment, and you know who everyone loves to hate these days? The man. Elon hates the man too. He’s just like you.
FireBeyond 5y ago
> Safe or not, autopilot is very convenient and super permissive, and owners seem to love it. Well, Tesla best hope that other competitors don't come up with safe L4 before them. > The Model 3/Y itself is a smooth, luxurious and fast ride. It really, really isn't. Fast, sure, smooth, sometimes, although perception may be messing with things, because wind noise is terrible in these models - but it may also be more noticeable because of less drivetrain noise. But it absolutely is not a luxurious ride. Go sit in an Audi Q7 or A6. BMW E Series. And feel what really comfortable seats are like. A dashboard that doesn't flex. Doorwells that don't creak when you lean your elbow on them. Nicer finishes, with higher attention to detail. I've driven in an S, a Y, and the interior build in those more resembles my older Altima, Maxima, than coming anywhere near close to my Audis, let alone my Jaguar.
- aluminum96 5y ago
  > the interior build in those more resembles my older Altima, Maxima Having driven both an Altima and a Model 3 extensively (i.e. thousands of miles), I couldn't disagree more. The vibe of these cars is night and day different. This is not quantifiable though, it's just my opinion.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    I will give you that, on the vibe. The M3 has a much more futuristic vibe to it. But in material quality? Hmm.
  - zz865 5y ago
    Having driven both an Altima and a Model 3 extensively (i.e. thousands of miles), I couldn't disagree more. The vibe of these cars is night and day different. You said the ALtima and Model 3 is different, but which one is better?
    - DarmokJalad1701 5y ago
      Owned an Altima for 5+ years and now a Model 3 for two. I can objectively say that the ownership and driving experience has been significantly better with the Model 3.

cavisne 5y ago

> Maybe the federal government will bail out Ford here with a charging infrastructure program Even if they did I don't think it would help. DC chargers are fundamentally a construction project. Tesla Supercharger locations often get delayed for months/years as they hit roadblocks like permits, disputes with landowners, shortages. So it's still going to be years before CCS chargers match the footprint. If/when Tesla opens up their network it could help a lot though.

clouddrover 5y ago
The number of CCS plugs in North America is currently at 70% of the number of Tesla plugs: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_locations.html CCS plugs will overtake Tesla plugs eventually. Tesla putting CCS plugs on their chargers will make it happen faster.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

> There's a reason Tesla has replaced Cadillac as a symbol of luxury in pop culture. Cadillac hasn't been the symbol of luxury in pop culture for a few decades now. Lexus and the German up brands (BMW, Mercedes, Audi if not in the USA) are much more pervasive.

zz865 5y ago

Teslas are ugly and boring. The model S might have been status symbol a few years back but they're now the modern Honda.

clouddrover 5y ago

> But I don't think it's obvious at all that competitors can catch up They are catching up as evidenced by Tesla losing market share. It's not a very surprising result. As other manufacturers ramp up EV production they will gain EV market share because not everyone wants the same car. Tesla is no longer a leader in EV technology. Lucid's and Hyundai's EV platforms, for example, offer options that Tesla doesn't. Have a look at Europe. In 2019 Tesla had 30.8% market share: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2019 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2019 So far in 2021 Tesla has 14.2% market share: https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021 https://eu-evs.com/bestSellers/ALL/Groups/Year/2021

simondotau 5y ago
Tesla are not losing market share of total passenger vehicle sales. That's the only number that matters.
- skohan 5y ago
  It's still an important sign in terms of where Tesla will end up in the overall market. Tesla is a tiny player in terms of overall sales, so a 50% YOY growth in marketshare is still possible. If they're also experiencing a 50% decrease in the share of new EV's sold, that's not a sign that they will dominate the EV market as their current valuation would suggest.
pokerhobo 5y ago
It doesn’t matter if Tesla is losing marketshare if they continue to grow deliveries >50% year over year while being production constrained
- skohan 5y ago
  How long do you think they can realistically maintain a 50% YOY growth rate in deliveries? They're small enough now that 50% growth is very attainable, but that doesn't mean it's sustainable.
- clouddrover 5y ago

HWR_14 5y ago

None of those seem terribly good differentiators: Autopilot - They don't seem particularly advanced, and there are two main types of drivers. Those who never use autopilot (so it's not a selling feature) and those who overrely on it (which leads to crashes, bad PR and lawsuits) Superchargers - Musk says they're going to open it up to all EVs by 2022. Status Symbol - Where are you that a Tesla is a status symbol? I mean, for a while it was because it was the only EV, but now that there are competitors it seems to be losing out. Luxurious ride - I've only been in Model 3s, but it didn't seem that luxurious. Plenty powerful, but I expect that to be true of any EV. The fit and finish didn't strike me as on par with, say, a 'vette. Certainly, if you compare it to cheaper cars it should stack up (isn't a Model 3 still more expensive than a 3 series?). But against comparably priced cars, it seems to lose out. I will admit that I find the giant touchscreen a huge turnoff. So it's possible that I am overly harsh on the luxuriousness.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
> They don't seem particularly advanced, and there are two main types of drivers. Those who never use autopilot (so it's not a selling feature) and those who overrely on it (which leads to crashes, bad PR and lawsuits) Isn't that fairly biased? There is surely a group of people who use AutoPilot not overly in irresponsible ways, but because the media is selection biased to bad outcomes, we never hear about them.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  I'm sure it's biased - it's based on the people I know and the people who make the news. Those are two non-random samples. Although, my two groups aren't the same as the two groups I put forward. IIRC, there were a lot of FSD purchasers upset because they feel like they didn't get what they paid for in the news.
sliken 5y ago
I've had a model 3 for almost 2 years, I consider the autopilot a toy. Superchargers are a huge advantage today, Tesla may partner with others to open their network, but they are going to charge, so it's far from apparent which cars will have access. Status symbol, could care less. My previous cars were an Acura GSR (somewhat legendary when it came out for how ugly it was), Subaru WRX (quick, but ugly), forester (even uglier). I was shopping for something quick, fun, and RWD or AWD. Considered Golf R, Ford Focus RS, Subaru WRX/STI, various BMWs (1 series, 2 series, x1, m235i, etc), and Teslas. Luxury ride. I've a Model 3P, 0-60 in 3 seconds, decent lap times at various tracks, and pretty competitive with today's semi-exotic rear engine corvette (0-60 in 2.9 seconds), and will beat quite a few of the corvette's on the road today in a 0-60. Not going to hang on a track with a new rear engine corvette. But way more practical, even pretty large costco trips can fit in a model 3 easily. Driving cross country with a kid, dog, and partner works well. I cross shopped BMWs and model 3's. Ended up with the Telsa because of it delivering performance similar to some of the fastest BMWs (M3, m235i, etc), and the practicalities of a their larger/slower cars like the 335/x3. Without all the maze of expensive upgrades that BMW plays. Things like intentionally degrading the standard headlights to be significantly worse than a prius unless you pay a few $k for the good headlights. You know it's bad when the NHTSA has to embarass BMW and deny them the safety ratings until fixed. Seats that you have to pay for to fold down or have a ski passthru. Not to mention the new "wonder" 4 cyclinders (2 liter ish, turbo, 16v, etc) are getting pretty famous for exploding and leaving behind $30k engine repairs and BMW significantly shortening their engine warranties on their CPO cars. I admit the giant touch screen was a turnoff at first, but now that I'm used to a giant map with working pinch/zoom and as responsive as a decent phone. I recently sat in a late modem 3 series and was pretty disappointed with the map/nav/entertainment system. It's really nice to have a giant responsive map (or sat mode if you prefer) built in. I'd much rather have that then a standard cockpit with a tiny map screen, often with the old/slow/gross capacitive touch screens that don't even allow pinch/zoom.

brandonmenc 5y ago

> Don't discount the car's ability to compete on the traditional merits. I sat in a friend's brand new Tesla recently and I had to bite my tongue because the interior just seemed... cheap. Like, felt stretched over plastic cheap. Microsoft brown Zune cheap. And not even in the same league as my Mazda, let alone something like a Mercedes.

ghostpepper 5y ago

> comparing a Model 3 to a 3 series as well as various Nissan cars I know this is your subjective opinion, but I just thought you might be interested to know that Nissan is not well regarded by car enthusiasts (their one sports car notwithstanding). A more fair comparison might be one of the luxury German brands like BMW or Mercedes, or if comparing EVs, the new Ford Mach-E.

Hypx_ 5y ago

The one threat they cannot win against is if batteries become obsolete in the face of advances of hydrogen fuel cell technology. This represents a disruptive event, and something they cannot easily fight against.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago
Hydrogen Fuel Cells!? Yeah. Right after cold fusion. Hell freezing over. And pigs flying.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  Unlike the others hydrogen fuel cells are already here.
  - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
    Thats the first sign of their failure. Hydrogen EROI is negative at 1:4 or 1:5.
    - Hypx_ 5y ago
      All vehicles are "negative." This doesn't make sense as a metric.
- skohan 5y ago
  You can already own a fuel cell car in California
skohan 5y ago
If I recall correctly, the math for fuel cells doesn't really work out. It's more efficient to charge a battery directly than to use energy to create hydrogen and then to convert it back into electricity. There are certain use-cases where you might want it, but probably most of the cars of the future should be battery-based EV's.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pbreit 5y ago

Screams for an Apple comparison. Sure, there are plenty of competitive devices. But iPhone dominates the mind-share and profit-share.

beamatronic 5y ago

Autopilot was not a factor in my decision to purchase a Tesla. I don’t use it.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

I don't know if your a fanboy or not, but personally I don't think Teslas are luxury symbols, maybe they're status symbols for environmentally conscious people, or the subset of them who can afford Teslas. I think anyone buying a Tesla because s/he wants to show off being rich would be similar to the kind of people who buy Trump-branded products because they think that brand is a symbol of wealth/luxury.

gjs278 5y ago

tesla will also be getting CCS adapters soon

gonehome 5y ago

I agree, and I think it's software - legacy companies suck at software and it's hard to become good at it. Tesla is a software company that makes cars and they've gotten pretty good at making great cars. The legacy car companies mostly make crap and their software is universally terrible*. In addition to that they're constrained by the awful dealership system and all the bad incentives associated with that. I don't expect any of them to offer any serious competition. *Maybe a notable exception here for Cruise which was bought by GM, but they're relegated to just one trim level on one car iirc which suggests GM doesn't recognize the threat. They also focus on high-res mapping which Tesla argues is a dead end. It's also only a subset of the problem, the car's UI systems remain bad.

steveBK123 5y ago
Another great software anecdote. During this chip shortage due to supply chain issues, Tesla sourced some alternate chips and updated their software in a few weeks to accommodate. Meanwhile the GMs & Fords of the world have spun down factories & sent workers home, not having the same agility.
- moffkalast 5y ago
  > not having the same agility More like for not being able to port their cobol-ass running UI for anything but the one target chip it was developed for lmao.
  - caf 5y ago
    Probably they asked the contract software supplier what it would take, and got an answer back with too many years in the schedule and too many $ on the bottom line.
- tziki 5y ago
  It's not about agility, it's about other manufacturers wanting a tried and tested chip design they know will last. Tesla is more willing to gamble, although they also removed radar from their cars to reduce the need for chips.

tills13 5y ago

re: Superchargers I would love to be able to even consider another brand of electric car for my next one but given where I live (Vancouver Island), I just cannot. Sure, 3rd party L3 and L2 chargers around me are fine for going around town and maybe up-island, but I cannot reasonably say the same for longer trips. I just came back from a 3k KM roadtrip to Calgary and back and I honestly do not think it would be possible (at least, not in a reasonable amount of time) with any other car. The infrastructure is just not there. With my Tesla (SR+), the stops were like those you'd have in any other car - stopping here and there to eat and use the restroom. The car and the chargers worked flawlessly. It really is the killer-app for Tesla.

bryanlarsen 5y ago
I believe that Petro Canada has the Trans Canada fully connected with chargers, so that trip should have been possible with a different EV.
clouddrover 5y ago
> I just came back from a 3k KM roadtrip to Calgary and back and I honestly do not think it would be possible (at least, not in a reasonable amount of time) with any other car. A Better Routeplanner (https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ https://abetterrouteplanner.com/) is a good tool for getting an idea of what roadtrips are like in different EVs. ABRP says Vancouver Island to Calgary in a Ford Mustang Mach-E Extended Range RWD takes 18 hours and 12 minutes. 2 hours and 8 minutes of that time is charging. A 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+ with 18" aero wheels takes 17 hours and 56 minutes. 1 hour and 34 minutes is charging. A Kia EV6 Long Range RWD takes 17 hours and 22 minutes. 1 hour and 18 minutes is charging. A Lucid Air Dream Edition takes 16 hours and 59 minutes. 1 hour and 1 minute is charging.
- simondotau 5y ago
  Deleted.
  - clouddrover 5y ago
    > It's worth noting that neither the Kia EV6 nor the Lucid Air have shipped a single unit to customers, so the above are only promises based on the optimistic claims of manufacturers. False. The EV6 is shipping in Korea and Europe right now. North America to follow. But let's do some different cars since you're distressed: - Volkswagen ID.4 Pro is 18 hours and 4 minutes. - Porsche Taycan 4S 93 kWh is 17 hours 56 minutes. - Audi e-tron 55 is 17 hours 50 minutes. > This video by Marques Brownlee is an interesting example That is not a road trip from Vancouver Island to Calgary, which is what we're talking about. Do you have any specific information about driving from Vancouver Island to Calgary in particular?

gitfan86 5y ago

The book, The Innovator's Dilemma, totally changed how I view situations like this. Logically it makes sense that Ford or GM could use their existing resources to build a electric car factory, and use their existing dealerships to sell those cars under their existing brand. But in reality those existing assets are why GM and Ford cannot catch up. Dealerships make money on services and maintenance. They don't want to sell an Electric that will never need much maintenance. Trying to convert a factory that was designed for ICE cars isn't as easy as building a new factory. And the union employees that have specialized in ICE parts do not want to switch over to Electric. So GM will end up delaying plans so long that they will not be able to compete on price due to Tesla's existing economies of scale. It was obvious in 2012 that Tesla was a threat to ICE, GM and Ford have done very little since then to catch up.

Hypx_ 5y ago
The problem is that now it's hydrogen's turn to do the same with batteries. Tesla is facing it's own disruptive threat, something it is completely unprepared to deal with.
- gjm11 5y ago
  You have made this and similar claims over and over again on HN, but you seem much more interested in making such claims than in supporting them, and your response when challenged has mostly been just to reiterate your statements that hydrogen fuel cells are better (for energy storage in cars) than batteries, or are inevitably going to replace batteries. It reads more like advertising than like actual discussion. What evidence is there that should lead us to expect hydrogen fuel cells to win over batteries, given (1) their currently much much higher costs, (2) their lower efficiency in turning electricity at the power station into kinetic energy of the car, (3) the currently much greater complexity of mechanisms required for a fuel-cell-based vehicle?
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    (2) doesn't seem relevant, as generating hydrogen happens whenever electricity is cheap and charging cars happen whenever the care pulls up. Other that that, I thought hydrogen was cheaper than batteries. But I don't know much about it.

olyjohn 5y ago

These points are getting tired. It feels like people who pay attention to Tesla pay attention to no other cars. * Nearly every manufacturer has an Autopilot equivalent that is as good or better. * Superchargers will be open to all EVs. There is massive investment in charging networks. They should not be proprietary anyways if we truly want EV adoption. * F-150 has been the best selling vehicle for years. As far as vehicles go, it doesn't need to be a status symbol to sell. * Lots of cars are smooth, luxurious and fast. This has been a solved problem for years.

aluminum96 5y ago
Perhaps, but I'm just trying to post-hoc explain why Tesla seems to be outselling the competition. Also, have you considered that Autopilot is less about the quality and more about the permissiveness? Volvo sells lane keeping software that works just as well if not better, but it requires me to look at the road and keep my hands on the wheel. Tesla has no such scruples -- arguably a bad thing, but drivers seem to like it. Maybe it's the "Uber model" of self-driving: ship it early, break all the rules, but satisfy your customers.
- Smashure 5y ago
  My volvo has no requirement to look at the road and I can let go of the wheel just as long as I can in my Tesla. My Volvo is better than my Model Y in every way except range. And it’s cheaper because of the tax credit.
- flutas 5y ago
  > it requires me to look at the road and keep my hands on the wheel. Tesla has no such scruples Note that for Model 3/Y with in-cabin cameras that’s changing with the rollout of their FSD beta software. It instantly goes to “oh crap grab the wheel” alerts if you cover the camera or play with your phone.

TacticalCoder 5y ago

> The Model 3/Y itself is a smooth, luxurious and fast ride. They're not luxurious though, even though the price is quite steep. Tesla cars may be way better EVs than the competition but I'd really suggest anyone thinking a Tesla is luxurious to go and sit in a Porsche Taycan (which, btw, is not that much more pricey than a Model S).

xeromal 5y ago
Yeah, I have a model s and it's a solid ride but there are better luxury cars out there for the same price. What you can't beat though is absolute performance and honestly software. It's pretty neat to get OTA updates

kart23 5y ago

I rode in a model 3. The ride is awful for a normal family car, as well as the road/wind noise. The owner admitted as much, terrible for the ~50k they paid for it. It's not a luxury car. The status symbol is changing as well. As more people experience them , they quickly realize that compared to BMW & Porsche, they're not that special past the shiny iPad on the dash.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
It's the Tacoma of commuter sedans this is to be expected. They're selling an image. The car is just a vehicle for that image.
speedgoose 5y ago
The road noise has been improved a lot on the newer model 3 though. It's still not a very silent car but it's now normal.
- sliken 5y ago
  Indeed, they have always been quiet, but it makes wind noise more noticeable not having any engine noise. One big change is from switching the regular glass with thicker "acoustic" glass that's better at damping the wind noise. Also some changes where the glass meets on the roof and the model Y has larger roof glass so less seams.
rpmisms 5y ago
I have an older Model S, drove a Model 3 last week, and experienced an extremely smooth and quiet drive, basically free of NVH complaints. Will be trading in soon.
xeromal 5y ago
The ride is dogshit in the model 3 and model y but you're not buying a luxury car when you buy one of those. Most of that money is tied into the software and the battery. Not amenities.
toomuchtodo 5y ago

mirchiseth 5y ago

- Superchargers I made a San Jose <--> Portland trip recently and their importance and convenience was etched in my mind forever. I was really surprised with the one in Laytonville, CA. - Regular software updates over the air is also a superpower. I am not sure if other car makers have them.

IAmGraydon 5y ago

I think the real reason that Tesla is successful is because they do it all with a certain swagger that is embodied in Elon and is utterly magnetic to potential buyers. This is the same type of magnetism that Apple had in the years with Steve Jobs. The other guys are suits and they’re jeans and tshirts. The other guys are the establishment, and you know who everyone loves to hate these days? The man. Elon hates the man too. He’s just like you.

FireBeyond 5y ago

> Safe or not, autopilot is very convenient and super permissive, and owners seem to love it. Well, Tesla best hope that other competitors don't come up with safe L4 before them. > The Model 3/Y itself is a smooth, luxurious and fast ride. It really, really isn't. Fast, sure, smooth, sometimes, although perception may be messing with things, because wind noise is terrible in these models - but it may also be more noticeable because of less drivetrain noise. But it absolutely is not a luxurious ride. Go sit in an Audi Q7 or A6. BMW E Series. And feel what really comfortable seats are like. A dashboard that doesn't flex. Doorwells that don't creak when you lean your elbow on them. Nicer finishes, with higher attention to detail. I've driven in an S, a Y, and the interior build in those more resembles my older Altima, Maxima, than coming anywhere near close to my Audis, let alone my Jaguar.

aluminum96 5y ago
> the interior build in those more resembles my older Altima, Maxima Having driven both an Altima and a Model 3 extensively (i.e. thousands of miles), I couldn't disagree more. The vibe of these cars is night and day different. This is not quantifiable though, it's just my opinion.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  I will give you that, on the vibe. The M3 has a much more futuristic vibe to it. But in material quality? Hmm.
- zz865 5y ago
  Having driven both an Altima and a Model 3 extensively (i.e. thousands of miles), I couldn't disagree more. The vibe of these cars is night and day different. You said the ALtima and Model 3 is different, but which one is better?
  - DarmokJalad1701 5y ago
    Owned an Altima for 5+ years and now a Model 3 for two. I can objectively say that the ownership and driving experience has been significantly better with the Model 3.