5 ms·

Seems like we're reverting to an old class divide. Aristocrats who get paid for having money, and peasants working the fields and told there's no money with whi

Seems like we're reverting to an old class divide. Aristocrats who get paid for having money, and peasants working the fields and told there's no money with which to pay them. People might end up finding a solution by looking at history. France in the late 1700s and Russia in the early 1900s might end up being a reference point for some country in the mid 2000s.

adventured 5y ago
Except today's supposed peasants (the bottom 50% of labor? who do you mean exactly?) have absolutely nothing in common with the peasants you're referencing. To claim otherwise is something far beyond hyperbolic. The closest thing to peasants today do zero work in fact. That's how much your scenario is fraudulent. Hilariously fraudulent. They do nothing. They're the forever welfare classes in the US and Europe. People that go half their lifetimes or more and don't bother to work, just because they don't want to. For $15 / hr they can't be bothered to scan bar codes at CVS or Target in zero skill entry level jobs, it's just not a high enough wage. They can't be bothered. Oh those poor peasants doing absolutely nothing in the fields, getting free healthcare (bottom ~28% in the US today), free food, and housing subsidies - all paid for by the top 50% that actually do work and cover all the taxes, and primarily paid for by the top 25% that pay more than their fair share of taxes vs the income they take home.
- forgotmyoldname 5y ago
  I think you're responding to the wrong post. I said none of whatever you're aimlessly rambling about.
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  Spoken like someone who doesn't have a fucking clue about being poor. Educate yourself. "Target Workers Unite recently released a survey of more than 500 Target workers around the US, representing 382 different stores in 44 states. Only 12.7% of the workers who responded said they could survive on the wages from Target alone, with 56% of workers citing they have ran out of food while employed at Target, and 12.8% of workers reported experiencing homelessness." https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/27/target-cuts-hours-leaves-workers-struggling https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/27/target-cuts... "In most countries in the Western world, it’s assumed governments will one way or another make sure basic facilities like clean running water, sewage, and sanitation are available,” said Philip Alston, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, who in 2017, traveled to Lowndes County for a report on U.S. poverty. “What was striking to me in Alabama was the extent to which there’s no sense that a government should be working towards providing basic infrastructure,” Alston said. “If you happen to live in one of the big cities, you will get access, but if you don’t — and particularly if you live in one of the poor counties like Lowndes — there isn’t any obligation and there are no plans in place.” https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/alabama/2018/07/06/story-first-series-ways-communities-addressing-rise-poverty-related-tropical-diseases-poor-sewage/754311002/ https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/alabam... "Stan Brock, who founded RAM in 1985 to fly American doctors and dentists to treat people in some of the world’s poorest and most remote areas, told me during an interview under one of the many M.A.S.H.-like tents on the fairgrounds site that the urgent need for dental care is not specific to Wise. Regardless of the location of RAM’s U.S. clinics—most of the organization’s expeditions are now held on U.S. soil because of this country’s large and growing number of uninsured and underinsured people—60 percent or more come first and foremost for dental care." https://tarbell.org/2018/08/people-travel-hundreds-of-miles-for-free-medical-care-in-appalachia-but-there-are-never-enough-doctors-to-meet-the-need/ https://tarbell.org/2018/08/people-travel-hundreds-of-miles-...
  - IAmGraydon 5y ago
    > "Target Workers Unite recently released a survey of more than 500 Target workers around the US, representing 382 different stores in 44 states. Only 12.7% of the workers who responded said they could survive on the wages from Target alone, with 56% of workers citing they have ran out of food while employed at Target, and 12.8% of workers reported experiencing homelessness." The homelessness rate in the US general population is 0.2%. This survey indicates that in the Target-employed population, the homelessness rate is 64x higher? That does not compute on so many levels. I would have to suspect a massive methodology problem here. It also seems strange that they surveyed only 500 workers from 382 stores - only 1.3 workers per store! How was that one representative of an entire store chosen? This doesn’t scream manipulation via sample size to you?
    - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
      That doesn't mean they're currently homeless. Being a Target employee also self-selects for low-wage demographics. Let's say the average target employee is in the bottom 20% of income (likely lower, maybe slightly higher, but definitely nowhere near the top 50%). This is saying 12.8% of these low-income individuals experienced a period of homelessness at some point. So 12.8% of 20% of the working poor experienced homelessness. That's saying that about 2.5% of the working poor experienced homelessness (potentially only days or weeks) at some point while working there (which many people work there for 5, 10, 20 years). Not unreasonable. No different from saying 50% of people once went to college. 50% of people certainly aren't in college now, but at some point, they were.
    - Frost1x 5y ago
      Target employees 410k people according to Wikipedia. A sample size of 384 could represent a larger 500k population with 95% confidence and a 5% margin of error. I don't think the sample size is all that bad in the realm of surveys. How the sample was chosen is the critical piece here.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- imtringued 5y ago
  I don't get it. If you don't pay people they won't work. It's that simple. This argument is used all the time when high incomes are taxed (more taxes = less income = less work) but when people have low incomes we demand that they work more.

adventured 5y ago

Except today's supposed peasants (the bottom 50% of labor? who do you mean exactly?) have absolutely nothing in common with the peasants you're referencing. To claim otherwise is something far beyond hyperbolic. The closest thing to peasants today do zero work in fact. That's how much your scenario is fraudulent. Hilariously fraudulent. They do nothing. They're the forever welfare classes in the US and Europe. People that go half their lifetimes or more and don't bother to work, just because they don't want to. For $15 / hr they can't be bothered to scan bar codes at CVS or Target in zero skill entry level jobs, it's just not a high enough wage. They can't be bothered. Oh those poor peasants doing absolutely nothing in the fields, getting free healthcare (bottom ~28% in the US today), free food, and housing subsidies - all paid for by the top 50% that actually do work and cover all the taxes, and primarily paid for by the top 25% that pay more than their fair share of taxes vs the income they take home.

forgotmyoldname 5y ago
I think you're responding to the wrong post. I said none of whatever you're aimlessly rambling about.
nicoffeine 5y ago
Spoken like someone who doesn't have a fucking clue about being poor. Educate yourself. "Target Workers Unite recently released a survey of more than 500 Target workers around the US, representing 382 different stores in 44 states. Only 12.7% of the workers who responded said they could survive on the wages from Target alone, with 56% of workers citing they have ran out of food while employed at Target, and 12.8% of workers reported experiencing homelessness." https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/27/target-cuts-hours-leaves-workers-struggling https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/27/target-cuts... "In most countries in the Western world, it’s assumed governments will one way or another make sure basic facilities like clean running water, sewage, and sanitation are available,” said Philip Alston, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights, who in 2017, traveled to Lowndes County for a report on U.S. poverty. “What was striking to me in Alabama was the extent to which there’s no sense that a government should be working towards providing basic infrastructure,” Alston said. “If you happen to live in one of the big cities, you will get access, but if you don’t — and particularly if you live in one of the poor counties like Lowndes — there isn’t any obligation and there are no plans in place.” https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/alabama/2018/07/06/story-first-series-ways-communities-addressing-rise-poverty-related-tropical-diseases-poor-sewage/754311002/ https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/local/alabam... "Stan Brock, who founded RAM in 1985 to fly American doctors and dentists to treat people in some of the world’s poorest and most remote areas, told me during an interview under one of the many M.A.S.H.-like tents on the fairgrounds site that the urgent need for dental care is not specific to Wise. Regardless of the location of RAM’s U.S. clinics—most of the organization’s expeditions are now held on U.S. soil because of this country’s large and growing number of uninsured and underinsured people—60 percent or more come first and foremost for dental care." https://tarbell.org/2018/08/people-travel-hundreds-of-miles-for-free-medical-care-in-appalachia-but-there-are-never-enough-doctors-to-meet-the-need/ https://tarbell.org/2018/08/people-travel-hundreds-of-miles-...
- IAmGraydon 5y ago
  > "Target Workers Unite recently released a survey of more than 500 Target workers around the US, representing 382 different stores in 44 states. Only 12.7% of the workers who responded said they could survive on the wages from Target alone, with 56% of workers citing they have ran out of food while employed at Target, and 12.8% of workers reported experiencing homelessness." The homelessness rate in the US general population is 0.2%. This survey indicates that in the Target-employed population, the homelessness rate is 64x higher? That does not compute on so many levels. I would have to suspect a massive methodology problem here. It also seems strange that they surveyed only 500 workers from 382 stores - only 1.3 workers per store! How was that one representative of an entire store chosen? This doesn’t scream manipulation via sample size to you?
  - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
    That doesn't mean they're currently homeless. Being a Target employee also self-selects for low-wage demographics. Let's say the average target employee is in the bottom 20% of income (likely lower, maybe slightly higher, but definitely nowhere near the top 50%). This is saying 12.8% of these low-income individuals experienced a period of homelessness at some point. So 12.8% of 20% of the working poor experienced homelessness. That's saying that about 2.5% of the working poor experienced homelessness (potentially only days or weeks) at some point while working there (which many people work there for 5, 10, 20 years). Not unreasonable. No different from saying 50% of people once went to college. 50% of people certainly aren't in college now, but at some point, they were.
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    Target employees 410k people according to Wikipedia. A sample size of 384 could represent a larger 500k population with 95% confidence and a 5% margin of error. I don't think the sample size is all that bad in the realm of surveys. How the sample was chosen is the critical piece here.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 5y ago
I don't get it. If you don't pay people they won't work. It's that simple. This argument is used all the time when high incomes are taxed (more taxes = less income = less work) but when people have low incomes we demand that they work more.