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Overly analytical guide to escorting
- DantesKite 5y agoI wonder if Aella ever feels bad about providing information that’ll (for the most part) make a persons life worse. Emotionally, physically, and existentially.
- humpday69 5y ago"You operate a little bit like a therapist and confidante, most men do not want to f*k just a body, they want to f*k a soul."
- qPM9l3XJrF 5y agoThat part was weird given that women on dating subreddits complain about how guys only want them for sex.
- im3w1l 5y agoA guy who wants a relationship may only have sex with a handful of women. While a guy who just wants sex can get into the hundreds. That's hundreds of experiences reinforcing that men only want sex compared to just a few saying the opposite. Samppling bias you could say.
- qPM9l3XJrF 5y agoYeah I think you're absolutely right that is a factor
- 1cvmask 5y agoIt's like the old adage in Hollywood that you had to sell your soul to the devil. Clearly the predators in Hollywood were the devils.
- emerged 5y agoI actually read the entire thing. It was worth it imo. Some stand outs were her kind words about her clients (almost strange to see men as a class described with such positive words). She is clearly a very rational and intelligent person and this is a business to her like any other. Yeah I really don’t get why this stuff is illegal, even though I have no interest myself.
- 3grdlurker 5y agoI don’t think the author intended to talk about men as a class and all the politics that comes with it, and as a man I would hate for discussions about my gender’s politics to be based specifically on sexual transactions. I mean, she had to talk a lot about her own safety and boundaries here. Not a very good sign for me.
- lazide 5y agoSafety and boundaries also come up with taxi drivers, day laborers, pizza delivery folks, and many others - and objectively they end up dead more often near as I can tell. Most folks here live pretty safe and cushy lives that the majority of humanity doesn’t get to enjoy. Real life for most people requires understanding and defending these things and making conscious decisions to protect them. it doesn’t require someone be doing sex work for it to be that way.
- BBC-vs-neolibs 5y agoI'd hope there are more "taxi drivers, day laborers, pizza delivery folks, and many others" which would account for the death tool.
- manquer 5y agoHer experience is not a good indicator or whether it should be legal or not . She is an exception even as an escort, and also high end escort work she describes here is very very different from the run on the mill prostitution. Her strategy of avoiding trouble by keeping price higher even if lower frequency engagements may not be feasible for many, they may be unable to get clients at higher price points and like any biz pressure to generate revenue is immense.
- guhsnamih 5y ago> have long-term, sustainable arrangements with only one or two clients, and they don’t run ads or accept any new clients. This can be the holy grail! Great writing and plenty of consulting advice in the article. Thanks for sharing.
- country_g 5y agoI wonder how many of these listing sites will experience the HN effect...
- everybodyknows 5y ago>a handful of memorable experiences with talented men Talent is generally understood to mean an innate ability, but for any practical advice in this direction that can be put into words, well, some readers would be very grateful to know it.
- secondaryacct 5y agoI dont know if prospective escorts should expect the same 1200$/hr as this person, this sounds very high.
- exolymph 5y agoThat's addressed in the piece.
- pcbro141 5y agoPrices are inflated in the US, I guess because it's illegal. In the UK you can bang a really hot clean looking escort for like $200.
- s5300 5y agoHmmm... this seems quite close to SWE salary differences as well. Good SWE in Europe - $40k-$60k Good SWE in US. . . . - $250k-$350k
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- MauranKilom 5y agoMight vary a bit locally (~within Europe), but the gap between those numbers is way too large. StackOverflow survey puts a factor 2 (or 1.8 or something) between EU and US, not a factor 6. 300k+ is, from what I gather, very high for US, whereas 50k is more or less entry level in western EU. But take my impression as a data point (or a cluster), not the ultimate source of truth.
- ArtWomb 5y agoAlmost none of the digital issues seem to be around transacting of cash. That part seems solved (via Cashapp or BTC). All pain points stem around one party wanting to hide their identity. While simultaneously verifying their clients' identify in great detail, down to a psych profile! An interesting non-zero sum game ;)
- exolymph 5y agoPretty sure johns pay with literal cash, not any digital variant.
- koolba 5y agoIndeed, I’d wager that most transactions conclude well before six Bitcoin blocks are mined.
- trhway 5y agosome prefer structured/smurfed bank transfers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Spitzer_prostitution_sca...
- anonu 5y agoSome use Venmo: https://www.thedailybeast.com/gaetz-paid-accused-sex-trafficker-who-then-venmod-teen https://www.thedailybeast.com/gaetz-paid-accused-sex-traffic...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jrochkind1 5y agoThe OP did mention using crypto currency, although implied that it was an unusual thing for sure (in general, and not usual for them either). > I required deposits of 20% for long appointments (6+ hours), because I had a lot of time booked up that would be a painful loss if they cancelled. Deposits are hard to do because everybody wants anonymity and payment processers are cruel; I typically accepted amazon gift cards or crypto.
- 1970-01-01 5y agoExcellent opsec
- telotortium 5y agoThe article's by https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl https://twitter.com/Aella_Girl (i.e., high on the leaderboard of OnlyFans) - not exactly obscure.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- micromacrofoot 5y agoIt would be nice if we could just regulate this industry to protect the people in it and start the work of reducing the stigma. Similar to abortion, people are going to do it whether or not it's legal. It will never have an "end". It's one of the oldest professions in human history. I do not understand why people fight this battle. The number of hoops these people jump through only to be eventually assaulted and robbed anyway are ridiculous. It's a very dangerous job and it doesn't really have to be! The ongoing stigma around sex is ridiculous... censoring female nippes (not necessarily even related to sex!), bans on "suggestiveness," etc... I've heard of people who run OnlyFans accounts (not escorts) essentially get run out of town if they live in conservative areas... and they really only get found out because the men in the area are patrons! The tech industry supports these stigmas in huge ways by automating it (often unsuccessfully I might add! at one point I was suspended from Facebook for sharing a sculpture). Push back against this nonsense if you can.
- ParoxysmalVigor 5y agoAssassination. Burglary. Similar to abortion, people are going to do it whether or not it's legal. It will never have an "end". It's one of the oldest professions in human history.
- habeebtc 5y agoSome might argue that assassination and burglary have a victim where prostitution does not. There are arguments against prostitution as a victimless crime, but it is not straightforward in any argument to demonstrate victim and perpetrator like it is with assassination, burglary, assault, etc.
- micromacrofoot 5y agoYou're seriously out here comparing consensual sex between two consenting adults to murder for hire? You can at least try to make a point in good faith first.
- ParoxysmalVigor 5y ago
- akudha 5y ago1,200 an hour! Jeez, that is insane! good for them. Once in a while, I come across something like this and wonder, what is it like to be that rich to casually drop 1,200 an hour, for anything, let alone on escorts.
- spoonjim 5y agoWell many people spend $12,000 a year on a hobby like travel, skiing, whatever. One escort a month is similar. Very few consume it hourly at the same volume as say Netflix.
- bluecalm 5y agoWell, you get hundreds of hours of skiing or travelling for that 12k. Not fair to compare to once a month an hour long date.
- dustintrex 5y agoThe same stats also note that the median income for an escort is $5000 per month, or $60k/year. And for what it's worth, flying to many places with a family of four can cost $1200/hour even in economy class.
- refurb 5y agoThere was an article about prostitution in Germany (legal) where Eastern European women will offer services for as low as 10 EUR. Race to the bottom?
- rudian 5y agoTo charge high prices you have to be attractive. Old, overweight prostitutes can’t charge as much as models. As someone who used services in the past, I don’t understand why anyone would spend any money at all on those… but they do find clients. Maybe it’s because if I lower my standards I can just easily find someone “for free” instead.
- amcsi 5y agoAlthough as a male I highly support that sex work be legal, and acknowledge it as legitimate work, I do not tend to honestly respect this type of work (besides the courage to do it and such). I find it quite unfair be able to make so much money for relatively low effort (at least it feels that way despite the downsides/dangers). But I must say that this escort is super smart and has a really good sense of business. This article also gave me some newfound respect for escorts for the fact that although on the surface they seem to mostly just use their bodies, they do put in a lot of effort on the business and strategy side which people don't talk about.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago> I find it quite unfair be able to make so much money for relatively low effort I hope you hate capitalism then. It's all about supply and demand. As a gay man with some friends who escort, their rates are much lower, both for obvious reasons (it is ridiculously easy for most gay men to find other men to have sex with) and less obvious ones (IMO there is much less of a stigma among gay men for escorting, and at least friends I knew who did it expressed little shame at doing it).
- amcsi 5y agoIt is absolutely supply and demand. I meant girl escorts when I wrote what I wrote. I find it unfair that it you're born a girl and are pretty, you have this option.
- c21h30o2 5y agoPeople who are born men and rich have the option of paying for those services, so what's most unfair?
- amcsi 5y agoI don't see how the "men" part is relevant of what you are saying. The "rich" part is a good point: that's certainly more unfair. I'm thinking that if men and women of equally poor background, women have this escort option that men don't (obviously they do, but it pays far less good on average than women).
- Asparagirl 5y agoThis is a fantastic article: informative, well-written, thoughtful, human, and funny. And it’s especially interesting to see it posted here at HN, because while reading it I kept thinking there are some solid lessons here about entrepreneurship, sales, and product pricing that could certainly be applied to your average start-up SaaS. I mean, anchoring your price high, to better capture the businessman/enterprise market? And that this market also happens to be less likely to be time-suck jerks about little issues, or constantly asking for product changes/features? Literally better b̶a̶n̶g̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶buck for your bang. And it’s right out of the classic @patio11 essays, too. Charge more, indeed.
- KaiserPro 5y agoThis is a brilliant article, it answers a lot of questions that I had no opportunity to ask.
- reidjs 5y agoIncredibly touching too: "I’ve had many clients that I remember fondly and who mean a lot to me. One client I would regularly hold in close skin-to-skin contact as he cried, and I cried with him; another was young and vibrant and too big for the small world around him. Another was a quadriplegic, and yet another was a talented writer who valued rarely seen things in me and encouraged me to do great things without ever once implying escorting was beneath me. Another whose wife had recently died and found me as his first foray into being with another woman, because he couldn’t bear to fully date another person yet. I’ve had clients figure out who I am and show up asking me to tripsit them on psychedelics, wildly successful CEOs who treated me as an intellectual equal, or people who were dying of cancer and didn’t want to go out without another bang (I recently looked up one of my favorite clients and instead found his obituary)."
- coolandsmartrr 5y agoInteresting that the author does porn too. Typically, escorting is frowned upon in the porn industry. There are concerns over STDs, and porn performers prefer to co-star with those having sex exclusively with porn stars.
- loxias 5y agoThis is a fantastic article, echoing what others have said "informative, well-written, thoughtful, human, and funny". After being shocked at how low the price is, considering how the market prices a related job (see my other comment for details), the second thought I had is that there might be some interesting low MRR startupish product opportunities.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- collegeburner 5y ago> $1200/hour Holy shit, why do ppl pay this? Honestly wondering. Cant most people just go hook up at a bar or smth if they're that desperate?
- SixDouble5321 5y agoI think the problem is your idea of the patrons and their reasons for hiring escorts. Maybe it's just me, but "go find someone in a bar" isn't even in the same ballparks.
- collegeburner 5y agoRight thats what I'm trying to figure out, what are their reasons for doing that?
- Hnrobert42 5y agoAs the author mentions, some clients are busy and just want a sure thing. Others are cheating on their partner and don’t want to involve a civilian who might blow up their spot. I’d say that most important is that she was SUPER thoughtful about the experience she provided to her clients. Things like identifying non-latex condoms to avoid allergies, wearing a short necklace so it won’t slap him in the face. Whenever I pay more for something and am glad I did, it’s almost always because I am impressed by the attention to detail. Then again, maybe that’s because I, too, pay attention to detail.
- c21h30o2 5y ago
- correct_horse 5y agoThe funniest part of this article (in the context of being posted on HN) is that the author separately mentions engineer and software engineer in her list of client professions. That settles it - normal people think they're different.
- gizmo686 5y agoI say this as a software engineer, does anyone honestly believe that software engineers are engineers?
- CydeWeys 5y agoWhat does it even matter? It's just a job title. The job is what it is regardless of what some people prefer (or don't prefer) to call it.
- hulitu 5y agoSome are. ( HW engineer here). But most of them are artists.
- dopidopHN 5y agoI’m pretty sure that they are on to us.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- psyc 5y agoThis comes up often enough here. The number of people who do argue that “software engineer” is a kind of engineer, alongside “mechanical”, “civil”, etc, is always dismaying to me. I’ve always maintained that it’s merely a common title within the software industry, based on a loose analogy. Similar to “software architect”, it’s evocative, not literal.
- detaro 5y agoI found Hillel Wayne's series on the topic interesting, where he interviewed people that had worked in both "traditional engineering" and software. https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/ https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/ (first post, later ones linked from the top)
- tenaciousDaniel 5y agoI recommend following Aella on Twitter. She does some really interesting (and some very controversial) twitter polls: https://twitter.com/aella_girl https://twitter.com/aella_girl
- tim333 5y agoThere's also some youtube stuff. Here an interview on similar questions to the article: https://youtu.be/bkiPNMbeOH0 https://youtu.be/bkiPNMbeOH0
- ThrowawayR2 5y agoThe author has a similar analysis article on working as a camgirl that is also very engaging and was reposted to HN recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28783418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28783418
- yedava 5y ago> 41% reported sexual assault This is from a group of sex workers who appear to be screening their clientele. I wonder how high the number would be among sex workers who don't have the same amount of financial safety net that someone who can pick and chose their clients has. I also wonder how those assaults could be brought down, if that is even possible in the first place. I always hear how sex work just needs to be regulated and everything would be fine, but how does one prosecute something that happens in a private setting, behind closed doors?
- Aella 5y agoIt should be decriminalized, not regulated. I would have liked to have been able to go to the police about the client who assaulted me, but unfortunately this didn't cross my mind as an option.
- kfprt 5y agoThere are lots of bad things that arguably shouldn't be illegal but suppressed. Smoking, abortion, prostitution, drugs, etc. I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Cigarettes have taxes and programs to quit. What would the prostitution equivalent be? "Something is either morally wrong or it isn't, it can't be slightly morally wrong" Therein lies the difficulty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYfiRyPi3o
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago> I think for society to fully embrace decriminalization there needs to be a diversion mechanism. Yes, let's make men who want to pay for sex watch an hour-long video extolling the virtues of "real" relationships. The reality is that there are a lot of men who enter into "normal" relationships with women in large part because it gives them easier access to sex. Not all of them are happy. Lots of them overextend themselves financially, and generally do things they wouldn't otherwise do, to keep their girlfriends satisfied. These are less direct exchanges, but they are exchanges nonetheless. I'm living in East Asia, which has made me think more about the exchanges that take place in relationships between men and women. Here, it's common to see men with expressionless looks on their faces lugging their girlfriends' handbags, spending 20 minutes helping them take cutesy photos, pushing strollers carrying not children but tiny, professionally-groomed pups, etc. As a warm-blooded man, you'd have a hard time convincing me that access to sex isn't a big reason these men are putting up with this stuff. Why do men who pay for sex need a diversion mechanism but the men who totally lose themselves in a relationship don't?
- slibhb 5y agoThe article reads like an advertisement. She claims to have had many intimate, beautiful experiences with johns but she's charging $1200/hr. How beautiful can a purchased experience be? Plus, the whole thing reenforces regressive stereotypes wherein men are valued for their money and women for their bodies. Regardless of whether prostitution should be legalized on liberal grounds, it is not prosocial behavior and it is unfortunate that the taboo against it seems to be decaying.
- cronodas 5y ago> "How beautiful can a purchased experience be?" Live theater, concerts, and therapy are all purchased experiences, too, and they can all be pretty powerful experiences on either side of the transaction. I don't see why escorting that includes conversation would be any different.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- elzbardico 5y agoWhy should we keep being controlled by the regressive moral taboos of puritan America? Is it a law of physics? What is the problem with bodies? Are smart people superior to beautiful people?
- SavantIdiot 5y agoThis is a fantastic article. I hope this goes viral. Sex work should be legalized, regulated, and protected. Escorts should be able to call the police without fear of being arrested if they are abused. I have several female friends who are escorts, or rather "providers", and the term most frequently used for the men (as OP said) is "hobbyists". However, they don't really see "hobbyist" as derogatory as OP claims. Which is interesting. I'm saddened that she describes such a solo experience. There is (was before COVID) a weekly meetup at a local restaurant where the providers got to know each other and swap stories. There was a back channel network where they could blacklist individuals. It was a cohesive group that looked out for each other. They even had presentations on how to launder money through Etsy. As OP said, the IRS will notice! In addition, some women jumped in for a short period, but some stick around. One friend have been at it for over 15 years: there long-term relationships are pretty amazing to hear about. We dated and I would sometimes get de-identified summaries of fetishes. There are "old timers" in this profession just like programming. This OP is like a ReactJS dev talking to CGI-BIN devs. I use this analogy becuase one of my friends worked mostly with programmers and went by "RubyGetsRailed" online. EDIT: I hope I'm not mansplaining, but it is a diverse community that exists everywhere and I wanted to share the variations I've encountered. Un-stigmatize sex work.
- bananamerica 5y agoMales can explain things about women without mansplanning :P This felt informative, thanks
- black_13 5y agoPurile
- throwawayswc213 5y agoThrowaway because I'm drawing on firsthand experience from illegal activity. I think it's important to highlight the diversity of sex work. This one passage caught my attention: > SeekingArrangement – This website, unlike the above, professes to definitely not allow escorts, and makes it difficult to be explicit about it. Most men connecting through the website anticipate paying around 50-70% less, as women tend to be willing to accept less money if you give them a veneer of not being a real sex worker. You can still attempt to do clear sex work here though – “PPM”, or pay-per-meet, indicates that you want to be paid per meeting, and this is the way to start out the discussion. Seeking Arrangement also had the lowest correlation with arrests, Nearly all of my experience with sex work (as a client) is off Seeking Arrangment. For those unfamiliar it's a site for people to engage in "sugar dating", where a "sugar daddy" compensates a "sugar baby" to spend time with him, ostensibly unconnected to any expectations of sex. I find these terms cringeworthy, I'll call it compensated dating. In practice there's almost always expectations of sex. There's definitely a sizeable overlap between SA and traditional escorting sites, browse both and you'll come across the same profiles with moderate frequency. But in general, "sugar dating" involves a sizeable chunk of activities beyond having sex. It's expected to take dates out to dinner, movies, and other activities one would normally do on dates. I think Aella is being a bit snide when she calls this "the veneer of not being a real sex worker". Almost all of the people I met considered it sex work and weren't under any illusion about the fact that money was changing hands in exchange for sex. When I asked why they preferred compensated dating rather than escorting the reasons were primarily twofold: * Safety. It's not uncommon for people to meet in person once or twice before agreeing to meet for sex. These initial meetings are almost always in public or semi-public places (restaurants, bars, parks, malls). Most people give each other real names after meeting in person. I suppose this could also reduce safety, but there's a M.A.D. element of this that seems to work. * Sense of connection, quality of experience. Many of the women on SA that I met spoke negatively of instances where men only saw them for an hour to have sex and didn't want to spend time together outside of the bedroom. Do they really just care about "the veneer of not being a sex worker"? Maybe, but I get the sense that many genuinely have a more enjoyable experience - or at least more tolerable experience - meeting someone few times platonically before having sex. Speaking from the male perspective here, I'm really not sure why someone would prefer escorting over compensated dating. Aella is right that it's 50-70% less expensive. Maybe a bit less if one factors in cost of meals and activities. But $/hr of time spent together is easily 4-5x less than escorting. Personally I'm the type that sees the expectation of spending time together outside of the bedroom as a positive rather than a negative, so it's a win on both counts. Between $1200 for 90 minutes with someone and $400-700 in exchange for having dinner with someone, sex, taking a bath together and talking, and spending the night together the latter is way preferable. The only potential negative is possibly the overlap of sugar dating and real relationships. I know both men and women who have moved in with, and in one instance gotten married to, people they met off SA. The one negative experience I had was with someone who wanted to have a real relationship and I did not, leading to a falling out and stuff being said about me - fortunately nothing that actual led to significant repercussions.
- spoonjim 5y agoAs a fan of Aella’s Twitter persona I wish I had known about the escorting before it stopped!
- fastball 5y agoThis strikes me as a weird things to say tbh, but in the spirit of the article I decided to try to look at it a bit more rationally and not sure this is wrong to say, but I still don't like it and I'm not exactly sure why.
- spoonjim 5y agoWell the article should give you some glimpse into the mindset behind transactional sex. I see Tweets I like, and photos of a woman with a good body. Her rate was $1,200, I am willing to pay. Consenting adults, consenting exchange, it might not be for you, and it might make you feel gross, that’s OK as you don’t try to deny us the right to make the exchange. Of course not relevant since she is not escorting now.
- manquer 5y agoPerhaps his objection is a bit different( or maybe am projecting). It may feel more wrong that you are talking about it in a forum, rather than engaging with her privately
- staticautomatic 5y agoShe’s posting in the replies here so maybe she’ll say whether this feels like an affront to her humanity. Still, this conversation around why it might be icky seems philosophically meaningful.
- spoonjim 5y agoSending a former escort private messages about fucking her is much grosser than commenting on a very frank blog post she’s made about her experiences.
- IG_Semmelweiss 5y agoI was squarely on the decriminalize camp but as with everything, life tends to give you more perspectives. The ethical calculus appears to be more complicated than the straightforward 2 consenting adults engaged in a victimless crime. Consider the current rates of single mothers, the increasing trends of broken homes and higher divorce rates, one is forced to really examine what is under the belly of this beast. Is there causality, or not? Do kids pay the price from easier access to family breakups? Do these side deals even lead to breakups at all, or were they just serve to speed up the inevitable ? I would like to understand if there is a way to estimate the impact of any broad change in policy. Thing do bode well in one respect: AFAIK, decriminalizing marijuana in portugal led to less drug abuse.
- pjc50 5y agoConsidering that prostitution has been around forever, and divorce has been long-term falling since the initial transition when it became legal and socially acceptable, I think you should examine some of your assumptions. https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-us-divorce-rate-has-hit-a-50-year-low https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-us-divorce-rate-has-hit-a-50-...
- excalibur 5y agoJust send for my new book, entitled "I Wanna Be a Ho"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKTmLd5PTyc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKTmLd5PTyc
- macrowhat 5y ago[dead]
- chasil 5y agoAs funny as it may be, this is a weakness in human character, a desire for a thing of no value. Transactional exchanges bleach emotion and depth. There are productive relationships in life. They do not lie within this realm. For myself, this was waste of time. I do not deny those who seek it, but the end result is always to be disillusioned. And now I sound like an octogenarian.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoOne of the friendships I most value in my life, I formed meeting for the more transactional version of this: at a brothel. I made a lifelong friend because I connected with someone, even though I was paying for sex. I’m not expecting to change your mind about whether this kind of interaction can become a meaningful connection. But I know from experience it doesn’t have to be empty.
- chasil 5y agoPerhaps I am trying to change yours. This is what I have to show you of this experience, and potentially of all others: XXVII Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument About it and about: but evermore Came out by the same door where in I went. XXVIII With them the seed of Wisdom did I sow, And with mine own hand wrought to make it grow; And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd-- "I came like Water, and like Wind I go." This is from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyiam. Perhaps the experience had meaning for you. I know what I have read.
- chasil 5y agoThere is a point in your life where this will all be put away, the longing, the regret, the desire, and the complexity. I am beyond that event horizon. Looking out from a "Schwarzschild radius" on what other people choose to suffer, I remember being on the other side. I am not going back. There is a story about one who goes back, Avalokiteshvera. That is not me, for now. None of us have the bandwidth.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- throwaway75999 5y agoThis was a fantastic read; thank you for sharing. I saw escorts for a couple of years. It was often weird, when I just didn’t click with the woman, but I met a few really awesome people. There are other down sides to escorting. One of the women I had seen a couple of times, was later murdered. They ended up catching the killer- another escort, I don’t know why. It was hard to grieve; we were not real close; her family probably didn’t want clients showing up at the funeral or any other reminder like flowers. I ended up falling in love with one of the women I met and we dated for a while. It was a serious emotional roller coaster being in love with someone who was having sex with other men until she was ready to “go exclusive”. But in the end we got married after she retired. Now it’s ten years later. We have a son and are still happy as can be. If you’re thinking about seeing escorts, remember that since intimacy with other people is involved, there are often strong emotions as well.
- mikevm 5y ago> If you’re thinking about seeing escorts If you're thinking about seeing escorts, you better talk to your close male friends so they can talk you out of it. Work on yourself, and start asking normal women out. Yes, I know that's "scary" but that's how your parents met... (unless your mother is a whore!) There's a saying which was borne out of experience - "once a whore, always a whore". I actually know of one such case personally. Basically, once a woman tries out whoring and sees the amount of money she can make, any other job where you actually have to put in the effort pales in comparison. So when times get rough, she will go back to whoring. I don't blame them, $200+/hr beats most skilled jobs out there and all you have to do is fake being nice and spread your legs. I don't get the so called "progressive" people here that are cheering for this kind of self-degradation and dress it up as pity for the poor "oppressed" woman. Leftists will never "blame the victim", it's always some externality that is to blame for a person's woes. Where is personal responsibility? Where is dignity? Making an effort to earn an honest living? As one commenter here said: "If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim ...". Why are we are supposed to respect her choice? Why is she even a single-mom in the first place? What about all the other poor women who work 2 jobs? Are they just suckers? Is the poor woman working 2 jobs making a morally equivalent choice as the poor woman who becomes a whore? I don't think so. I've also seen weird analogies claiming that whoring (renting out your body for money) is just like physical labor, which is fscking insane. How is being sexually penetrated by a stranger, ejaculated on, etc... anything like a man doing manual labor? This kind of abstraction does away with the actual differences on purpose - it's nothing more than a rhetorical trick.
- mlang23 5y agoThis is so weird. In some US states, you can buy weed legally but hiring a prostitute is illegal. Where I come from, its the other way round. Go figure.
- JaggerFoo 5y agoShe forgot to follow up on the buttcrack hair comment as promised. "(more on buttcrack hairs later)." I imagined a graph of number of missed buttcrack hairs to the amount of light allowed in a session.
- Aella 5y agoty for the reminder I added it in!
- shapefrog 5y agoGiven that light falls off at an inverse square rate do you plot the lumnes at source of light, centre of the bed or the observed light at the buttcrack? If the later, how do you account for different distances from the light source durring a given session?
- qPM9l3XJrF 5y agoLol I was wondering if flaunting buttcrack hairs was gonna be a way to get rid of troublesome clients
- durnygbur 5y agoThat's quite impressing with its sophistication. I'm from post-Communist country and talking with my former (female, heterosexual) dates from the same country, guys from Anglosphere countries get sex with them relatively easy and free of charge - because of curiosity and cultural inferiority well preserved by your show business. These are regular attractive girls and women which later on have families, children, and unaware partners. Meantime I probably wouldn't even go through the screening process of an escort in an Anglosphere country... not to mention the ridiculous prices... sad. Rare matches with American ladies on OLD which aren't some form of scam just don't stick at all. Even the dating over here was taken over by an American media group, you guys just want an absolute monopoly on sex. All that remains for us is your porn.
- Chris2048 5y ago> you guys just want an absolute monopoly on sex because your fellow (female) nationals choose to have sex with Americans? Is America responsible for these choices? Are "unaware partners" getting just porn? Should women not get to choose who they have sex with before marriage?
- durnygbur 5y agoThere exist dominating languages in western culture - English, Spanish, French, German, and native speakers are getting comparatively easy pass. English has the magnifying factor of mostly American movie and music industries. I mean more the ruthless evolutional and statistical factors - no American, Spanish, French, German lady comes over here looking for romance, marriage, or sex. I might relocate there but starting my life from scratch, I will not be attractive in comparison with more established guys. For a lady starting from the scratch is not much a hinderance, she will find a patron of some kind. So there is natural migration of people and people are free to make their romantic choices, but this migration is very unidirectional and causing significant frustrations among a spectrum of demographics.
- Chris2048 5y agoAnd why are native women choosing foreign men over native men? Purely the result of "American movie and music industries"?
- hzay 5y agoI felt very sorry when she said it's difficult to take deposits because payment processors are cruel, that she can't report a horrible client to police, that the govt refuses to acknowledge the work but takes the taxes, and all the precautions escorts have to take against cops. This work should be legal.
- pizza234 5y agoThe legality is addressed in the article: > You can in fact get issued an escort license in some cities (e.g., San Francisco or Grand Chute, or Jefferson County, WA). I don’t know if this is a good idea, neither I nor anybody I know has applied for this, though I seriously considered. It’s possible it might grant you some legal protection, but also possible it might give you some legal issues, as it puts a lot of information about you in a government file that clearly states you are in fact an escort. Based on that, from an escort viewpoint, the legal protections are not a worthy tradeoff for privacy. Ultimately, in the context of the country/culture, legal protection is a progressive position, but it's not sufficient, unless complemented by a degree of anonymity. Not sure how that could work, though!
- hzay 5y ago> Ultimately, in the context of the country/culture, legal protection is a progressive position, but it's not sufficient, unless complemented by a degree of anonymity. Not sure how that could work, though! Legal, non-anonymous and socially respectable escort services used to exist, you know. It existed in south india as a practice for hundreds of years before the british came.
- pizza234 5y agoYes, this is why I've mentioned "in the context of the country/culture". Surely in the country you mention, or I suppose others (e.g. Netherlands) there is no social stigma, but in the USA, there is, and it needs to be taken into account.
- bollu 5y agoWhat was it called, the practice in south india? I live there and I've never heard of this!
- playcache 5y ago$1200 an hour, crazy.
- Yoric 5y agoVery interesting article. Do I understand correctly that sex work is still illegal in the US? If so, what's the rationale? Why can't consenting adults do what they want with their body?
- eevilspock 5y agoIf a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it "consent" if she agrees to have sex with you so she can pay the rent, or have a decent meal, or buy the drugs she got hooked on dealing with depression and alienation, sold to her by a predatory drug dealer?
- mbrodersen 5y agoYes of course. She has the option to do it or not. A male in the same situation might not even have the option.
- devoutsalsa 5y agoWe all do stuff we'd rather not do for money.
- kfprt 5y agoIs there no limit to what you would do for money?
- devoutsalsa 5y agoOf course there's a limit, but... > If a woman is poor, struggling to survive or trying to give a child a decent life in a society and economic system that is very sink or swim, do you consider it "consent" if she agrees to have sex with you so she can pay the rent, or have a decent meal, or buy the drugs she got hooked on dealing with depression and alienation, sold to her by a predatory drug dealer? I give my boss consent to ask me to do stuff I'd rather not do. That's why they pay me. If I didn't get paid, I certainly wouldn't be doing things like attending Scrum meetings and fixing CSS bugs. People tend to treat sex work like it's some sort of demeaning thing that no one should have to endure. If I had to choose between 1 hour of entertaining sexually entertaining someone for $1200 or 100 hours @ $12/hour of dealing with a shit boss in a demeaning dead-end job, I choose the former. And I choose neither if I don't need the money at all.
- rationalfaith 5y agoWhen you're still hopped up on Adderall but without a job.
- trabant00 5y ago> You might carry away feelings of disgust, shame, or hatred. Not everyone feels like this, but if you do, I would not recommend escorting Just like mental fatigue (term meant as a catch all) is an integral and non separable part of IT work, the feelings described in the quote are not optional for sex workers! You WILL get burned by all the downsides of escorting, it WILL change how you perceive yourself, it WILL affect your dating life, relationships, etc. Some are more resilient than others, you can deal with it better or worse and preparation surely helps. But don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. I've started very open minded about the profession as a young man. Looking back on it I now think it was justification so I can allow myself to date sex workers as they are on average quite attractive, go figure. And while individuals differ and you can find the same issues outside of sex workers, the job guarantees some problems of which I personally I grew tired of. I am currently avoiding the profession for romantic interests and would not recommend anybody I care about to go into it. Discrimination sometime has objective serious motivation, the motives are just lost to some.
- jychang 5y agoYes and no. Sex work usually is tied to more Cluster B personality disorders, from my experience. But then, plenty of people I've dated (who hadn't ever done sex work) have the same issues. I'm aware that the demographics that I have experience dating tend to skew high towards mental issues (I'm interested in more drug positive people, among other confounding factors which tend to attract people with preexisting mental issues). A lot of the factors aren't exclusive towards sex work, though- simply having an instagram account with 10K+ followers tend to signal a big difference in behavior, for example.
- _chendo_ 5y agoGreat article, and as one of the engineers behind Tryst.link, it's great to hear that we're her personal favourite directory to list on!
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago> if your options for romance are with men who don’t like sex work Well, that's a very positive way of formulating this. This could be put more accurately as: "If you decide to enter a long-term relationship, you will have to either find a partner who wouldn't mind sex work (might be difficult!) or lie to them (ouch!)"
- tablespoon 5y ago> Once you start seeing clients, expect to get used as a reference and to start getting emails from other providers asking about clients you’ve seen. It’s considered extremely good form to respond; this is a collective safety system we all use to help each other, you rely on their information and they rely on yours. I wonder if the police could exploit this practice to make arrests. Arrest an escort, get access to their email as evidence, then start going after the people who made reference requests. I suppose the email address could even be used to fake a reference for a sting, but I doubt that would be legal in the US. Probably the only reason this system works is the police don't care enough to exploit it.
- dmurray 5y ago> Arrest an escort, get access to their email as evidence, then start going after the people who made reference requests. But you already know who the people to "go after" are: they're advertising on the websites.
- known 5y agoSweden banned the purchase of sex https://archive.is/CsMX4 https://archive.is/CsMX4 since all sex work is exploitative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein
- slyall 5y agoI posted a similar article by the same author a couple of years ago called "An Overly Analytical Guide to Camgirling" but it got flagged to death https://knowingless.com/2018/11/19/maximizing-your-slut-impact-an-overly-analytical-guide-to-camgirling/ https://knowingless.com/2018/11/19/maximizing-your-slut-impa...
- shapefrog 5y agoThat was before onlyfans became the next hot tech unicorn.
- uyt 5y agoI even remember seeing her stuff linked to before in the other OnlyFans-related discussions on HN. It was this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fay6parYkrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fay6parYkrw (this post is way better though)
- ipsum2 5y agoHN is a fickle beast. My guess is that this post was marked by moderators manually to ignore flags.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y agoSex drive can become such a nuisance, especially as people get older. I wonder why there are not more options to suppress it, or if there are, why there isn't more discussion of it. I remember one episode of "Sex and the city" where a guy was on Prozac and therefore had no sex drive. He was happy with it and unwilling to change a thing, to the detriment of his girl-friend's desires. So maybe that is just it, people take Prozac? Or porn and masturbation are sufficient solutions for most people?
- Liriel 5y ago> I’ve been sexually assaulted on the job (which was sort of my mistake; this was the one guy who I thought I’d screened but actually hadn’t, and if I’d screened him I would have not met him) No it wasn't your mistake. It hurts me to see that people who have been through trauma blame themselves for it.
- bluecalm 5y agoThere is a difference between exposing yourself to too much risk and being responsible for what happens to you. She made a mistake and blames herself for that. It was her mistake. She doesn't blame herself for the assault itself just for putting herself in a dangerous situation. I mean, if you don't realize it's your fault to mess up the screening process you will never correct it. It's healthy to realize your mistake.
- enimodas 5y agoKinda baffling, when she gets assaulted she never even let the guy know he was doing something wrong, and later in the article she admits to raping a guy who had clearly stated he didn't want to have sex with her, while conspiring with her friend about it. And she barely even registers she did something wrong. It was "awkward".
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago> later in the article she admits to raping a guy No she doesn't. You shouldn't label other peoples' experiences as "rape" willy-nilly like that.
- Aella 5y agoI appreciate the care here! I do think he very clearly should not have assaulted me, and I also think I made a mistake by not screening him. Both are true! I have no sense of guilt or self-blame around this, I mostly have "Oh, I failed to do a thing that would have protected me, I'll make sure to do that next time, good to know."
- bluecalm 5y agoIt's very interesting to me that escorts are able to charge that much (possible to make a median wage in the area in a few hours of work) and still have as much space for demands (detailed screenings, choosing clients etc.). It seems to me that if men had that option, that is having sex with even not very attractive women (most male escorts do gay sex work) the prices would be 1/10 of what they are for women and only the most attractive guys would get any action nevertheless. Meanwhile even not exceptionally attractive women (by their own admission) can easily make a few hundred per hour and choose to meet with only reasonably attractive men! I guess I am mainly surprised there aren't more takers. Sex work may be degrading and hard to swallow for many but then again working long hours in a minimum wage job often isn't much more appealing either. Maybe it's about lack of information, maybe about fear or maybe I don't understand human nature as well as I think I do. It just seems to me there should be many more takers than there seemingly are.
- harambae 5y ago>but then again working long hours in a minimum wage job often isn't much more appealing either I can't speak for other nations, but realistically the US unemployment/welfare system is game-able to the extent that many people can choose to just get by this way instead. I'm leaving out my own moral judgements here, because it's not relevant, but I know enough individuals firsthand who survive on government support to say that it's possible.
- qPM9l3XJrF 5y agoI wonder what her motivation is in writing these guides. Also why does she still work as an escort if she's already made so much money? (Also from camming and OnlyFans)
- BBC-vs-neolibs 5y agoInteresting that no-one yet has suggested de-criminalizing selling and criminalizing buying.
- jwally 5y agoI’ve always wondered why nobody’s ever set up a porn-for-hire business (maybe they have) to hide a prostitution business behind whatever laws make pornography legal. It’d essentially be an escort service where the “John” finances the “shoot” renting your room, equipment, and the girl’s time. They could then take their film and destroy it or distribute it.
- Jabbles 5y agoIt's not that simple: https://www.popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brilliant-no/ https://www.popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brill...
- silexia 5y agoThis is the best answer and the article is extremely well written.
- qwerty456127 5y agoI knew of a brothel where you could have sex for free if you allowed them to videotape that.
- csomar 5y agoThere is already a site for that (seeking arrangement).
- killtimeatwork 5y agoAs a customer, I'd be extremely worried about the video recording not being destroyed after all.
- e1g 5y ago"We are a small business with a limited budget - please bring your own recording equipment and find your own venue. Our success depends on releasing only the best material, so please send us only those recordings that you are most proud of to publish". And if the equipment they bring is an iPhone that falls over, well dammit this session was a waste of money.
- qazpot 5y ago> But in the end we got married after she retired. LMAO
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago"Her website implies that booking her will make you superior to every other man, that you will become enlightened by plowing her platonic ideal of a pussy. I only slightly exaggerate. Why does this give me "think different" vibes?
- CSSer 5y agoI’m not sure in exactly what sense you mean, but I’d say it’s because it’s the same target demographic/business segment. No, really! I mean, all advertising is bullshit[0], after all. We want novelty but also familiarity. It validates our intuition and gives us the sense that we’ve noticed something someone else hasn’t even if that’s not true. If you pay close enough attention you start to see common denominators in branding, design, and yes, even copy like you’ve noted here. Our basic job as advertisers is to be aware of the landscape of these things, preserve and deliver the important elements, and successfully convey the client’s message. The standouts among us, whether by luck or virtue, deliver something just radical enough along the way. But I don’t think that bit is as important as some might think, if not in kind then, at least in degree. Sorry if your question was mostly rhetorical or generally just tongue in cheek. I promise I don’t intend to patronize. I guess you inspired me. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit
- mdrzn 5y agoWow, what an unexpected and amazing article, incredibly well put and detailed.
- mensetmanusman 5y agoI wonder if crypto will enable future crimes like blackmail as a service. E.g. > Escort moves to country B from country A. > Acquires list of clients and determines their local contacts > Leaves country B > Informs previous clients that they need to submit monthly BTC payments or else contacts will receive secretly recorded videos Continue to jump between countries and create larger baseline of blackmail dividends.
- bradleyjg 5y agoWhat does Bitcoin add here?
- mensetmanusman 5y agoMoney transfers that can’t be stopped by international organizations.
- bradleyjg 5y agoWhat international organizations would be trying to stop these money transfers? The whole point of blackmailing someone is to get their cooperation. Bitcoin: a solution desperately searching for a problem.
- onemoresoop 5y agoThis reminds me of my friend's story. He started dating this girl, she was intelligent and hot. He's a good looking guy and seemed like a match. They went out for a while and my friend sensed something wrong, it's something he just couldn't put his finger on. After a while he managed to get her to open up and talk about her past. She admitted to being an escort for a period of time and that is very weird, she was coming from a good family, had Ivy League education, great job and all, she basically didn't need to do this. And it wasn't for the money according to her. I asked him what was the big deal after all, at the end of the day aren't we all making some bad decisions? Aside from being a good date, that thing he couldn't really put his finger on was around intimacy: she seemed to be, as he described, dead inside, the sex felt fake, somewhat mechanical or acted out.