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"Capturing the value from the means of production" unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who w

"Capturing the value from the means of production" unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. This road leads to poverty, not prosperity (and more inflation as more money chases fewer goods produced in fewer factories by fewer workers).

danaris 5y ago
Cry me a river for the people who will be making only 300 million dollars a year in net profit, rather than 500 million. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this hole: "We have to do everything we can to appease the wealthiest, or they'll stop gracing us with jobs!"
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Ah yes, this would be the “supply side doesn’t even exist” economics of 21st century meme politics.
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    Meme politics is pretending that only a binary exists between laissez-faire and communism.
    - aeternum 5y ago
      The sad part is most of the presidential candidates seem be trying their hardest to turn that pretend into reality.
coralreef 5y ago
I don't buy this. Trickle down economics is bullshit. Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. Investing in new technology either as an inventor/entrepreneur or dumb money still offers returns exponentially higher than anything else, should it work out. There is a point where excessive taxation/regulation hurts innovation, but I don't think we're anywhere near that.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  > Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. I have a home solar-panel system to sell you. It will pay for itself in a mere 25 years. Now, normally, it'd pay for itself in 8 years, but taxes have raised the price. You will surely invest in this system anyway.
  - asdff 5y ago
    I'd honestly be shocked if people with the means and interest to put in a solar panel system would care whether they made their money back in 8 or 25 years.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      Why wouldn’t many of them care? The alternative investment for many people with means is the stock market. If I can make my money back on solar in 8 years, that’s roughly comparable to the long-run stock market returns, so it costs me little to sell $30K in stocks, buy a PV system, and feel like I’m doing something concrete to get cleaner energy. Cut that return to a third of its previous value and I’ll leave my money in stocks and just buy electricity made from natural gas.
      - asdff 5y ago
        Most people don't try and min max every facet of their life. If it eventually returns on their investment relative to dirty energy, they are happy. There's also people who are given the option on their utility bill today to pay extra for renewably sourced energy, and they do it. People put up solar panels in Cleveland where its sunny for 80 days a year, they aren't getting a great ROI but they do it anyhow.
      - actually_a_dog 5y ago
        There are non-financial benefits to having solar panels, such as the peace of mind in knowing your home largely runs on clean energy.
piva00 5y ago
Do you have any peer reviewed sources proving that? So far I only found ideological ones preaching the trickle-down economics demagogy. Neoliberalism is a failed experiment, we now live in the results of this failure, 40 years after it started. We either address this failure or we let it roll until it sparks a revolution, either way it needs fixing.
- chii 5y ago
  > Neoliberalism is a failed experiment how has neoliberalism failed?
  - vmladenov 5y ago
    It hasn’t. Global extreme poverty fell from 36% in 1990 to 10% in 2015. It’s really frustrating to engage with people who categorically refuse to acknowledge positive developments.
    - esailija 5y ago
      Global poverty has improved mostly due to China, which is total opposite of neoliberal policy (privatisation, deregulation, austerity [allowing rich to pay less taxes while taking the necessary tax money via cuts to social programs] etc). And if there is any improvement in neoliberal poor countries it is because of the definition of "extreme poverty" used is based on nominal dollar value disconnected from material reality.
      - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
        In other news that are never mentioned in western media - the top three countries based on long-term economic growth are Laos, Vietnam and China. The only three countries that are both enmeshed in global trade, while also being run by communists. Surely just a coincidence
        dragonwriter 5y ago
thereare5lights 5y ago
> as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. There are only so many places you can park your money
antifa 5y ago
> unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. Unfortunately and unsurprisingly you got the math backwards on this one.
- mechanical_bear 5y ago
  A claim discounting his so strongly would seem to require at least a modicum of explanation.
seventytwo 5y ago
Surely there’s a middle ground…
imtringued 5y ago
>This road leads to poverty, not prosperity (and more inflation as more money chases fewer goods produced in fewer factories by fewer workers). You mean these people are so disgusted by the idea of taxation that they would abandon the business opportunity that has presented itself in front of them?

danaris 5y ago

Cry me a river for the people who will be making only 300 million dollars a year in net profit, rather than 500 million. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this hole: "We have to do everything we can to appease the wealthiest, or they'll stop gracing us with jobs!"

fennecfoxen 5y ago
Ah yes, this would be the “supply side doesn’t even exist” economics of 21st century meme politics.
- SantalBlush 5y ago
  Meme politics is pretending that only a binary exists between laissez-faire and communism.
  - aeternum 5y ago
    The sad part is most of the presidential candidates seem be trying their hardest to turn that pretend into reality.

coralreef 5y ago

I don't buy this. Trickle down economics is bullshit. Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. Investing in new technology either as an inventor/entrepreneur or dumb money still offers returns exponentially higher than anything else, should it work out. There is a point where excessive taxation/regulation hurts innovation, but I don't think we're anywhere near that.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
> Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. I have a home solar-panel system to sell you. It will pay for itself in a mere 25 years. Now, normally, it'd pay for itself in 8 years, but taxes have raised the price. You will surely invest in this system anyway.
- asdff 5y ago
  I'd honestly be shocked if people with the means and interest to put in a solar panel system would care whether they made their money back in 8 or 25 years.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Why wouldn’t many of them care? The alternative investment for many people with means is the stock market. If I can make my money back on solar in 8 years, that’s roughly comparable to the long-run stock market returns, so it costs me little to sell $30K in stocks, buy a PV system, and feel like I’m doing something concrete to get cleaner energy. Cut that return to a third of its previous value and I’ll leave my money in stocks and just buy electricity made from natural gas.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Most people don't try and min max every facet of their life. If it eventually returns on their investment relative to dirty energy, they are happy. There's also people who are given the option on their utility bill today to pay extra for renewably sourced energy, and they do it. People put up solar panels in Cleveland where its sunny for 80 days a year, they aren't getting a great ROI but they do it anyhow.
    - actually_a_dog 5y ago
      There are non-financial benefits to having solar panels, such as the peace of mind in knowing your home largely runs on clean energy.

piva00 5y ago

Do you have any peer reviewed sources proving that? So far I only found ideological ones preaching the trickle-down economics demagogy. Neoliberalism is a failed experiment, we now live in the results of this failure, 40 years after it started. We either address this failure or we let it roll until it sparks a revolution, either way it needs fixing.

chii 5y ago
> Neoliberalism is a failed experiment how has neoliberalism failed?
- vmladenov 5y ago
  It hasn’t. Global extreme poverty fell from 36% in 1990 to 10% in 2015. It’s really frustrating to engage with people who categorically refuse to acknowledge positive developments.
  - esailija 5y ago
    Global poverty has improved mostly due to China, which is total opposite of neoliberal policy (privatisation, deregulation, austerity [allowing rich to pay less taxes while taking the necessary tax money via cuts to social programs] etc). And if there is any improvement in neoliberal poor countries it is because of the definition of "extreme poverty" used is based on nominal dollar value disconnected from material reality.
    - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
      In other news that are never mentioned in western media - the top three countries based on long-term economic growth are Laos, Vietnam and China. The only three countries that are both enmeshed in global trade, while also being run by communists. Surely just a coincidence
      - dragonwriter 5y ago

thereare5lights 5y ago

> as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. There are only so many places you can park your money

antifa 5y ago

> unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. Unfortunately and unsurprisingly you got the math backwards on this one.

mechanical_bear 5y ago
A claim discounting his so strongly would seem to require at least a modicum of explanation.

seventytwo 5y ago

Surely there’s a middle ground…

imtringued 5y ago

>This road leads to poverty, not prosperity (and more inflation as more money chases fewer goods produced in fewer factories by fewer workers). You mean these people are so disgusted by the idea of taxation that they would abandon the business opportunity that has presented itself in front of them?