7 ms·

Gonna be controversial but one idea is the universal basic income, financed in part by capturing the value from the means of production (capital owners, technol

Gonna be controversial but one idea is the universal basic income, financed in part by capturing the value from the means of production (capital owners, technology creators) as they replace labour with machines.

rossdavidh 5y ago
Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. Also, replacing labour with machines is not really the problem here; agriculture and industry still require lots of people, it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. The profits are going to software and finance, but we still need the agriculture and industry to run, and they still need lots of people.
- coralreef 5y ago
  Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. If wage growth isn't coming organically for whatever reason, then some form of wage subsidy will need to occur. Or, you just have large swaths of lower middle class people in a growing state of contempt for the city dwelling elites.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    > Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. Well-intention but top down policies meeting agriculture has almost always resulted in mass starvation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela
    - germinalphrase 5y ago
      Our agriculture industry is heavily subsidized throughout by “top down policies”.
      - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Subsidies are very different from micromanagement. Also, the US is not even the top country when it comes to agri subsidies. https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectionism/agricultural-subsidies/ https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectio...
    - antifa 5y ago
      "Only communists try to solve problems" is not a good argument.
      - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Yes, and that was not my argument. The argument was "only communists try to solve OTHER people's problems for them and end up creating more problems for OTHER people than they started with"
        antifa 5y ago
        Congrats on defining the vast majority of good people as "communists" while simultaneously virtue signaling "communism bad".
        cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Congrats on not following one iota of my argument. I personally think communism caused mass starvations that killed millions are bad. If that makes me an evil capitalist, so be it. (As someone who has lived through one such micro famine in a socialist country, I feel I am entitled to that opinion.)
        5y ago
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  > it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. Coincidentally - they're also the most competitive / not monopolies.
- thereare5lights 5y ago
  > Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. You can't just say that and then not say why you think that.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  All of those technologies had extremely low investment due to the competition with an oft-abused migrant worker class sacrificing for their families. This was short term thinking because the human race would have been better off with more investment here.
throwaway6734 5y ago
Agree. We already essentially do this with social security.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
"Capturing the value from the means of production" unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. This road leads to poverty, not prosperity (and more inflation as more money chases fewer goods produced in fewer factories by fewer workers).
- danaris 5y ago
  Cry me a river for the people who will be making only 300 million dollars a year in net profit, rather than 500 million. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this hole: "We have to do everything we can to appease the wealthiest, or they'll stop gracing us with jobs!"
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    Ah yes, this would be the “supply side doesn’t even exist” economics of 21st century meme politics.
    - SantalBlush 5y ago
      Meme politics is pretending that only a binary exists between laissez-faire and communism.
      - aeternum 5y ago
        The sad part is most of the presidential candidates seem be trying their hardest to turn that pretend into reality.
- coralreef 5y ago
  I don't buy this. Trickle down economics is bullshit. Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. Investing in new technology either as an inventor/entrepreneur or dumb money still offers returns exponentially higher than anything else, should it work out. There is a point where excessive taxation/regulation hurts innovation, but I don't think we're anywhere near that.

rossdavidh 5y ago

Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. Also, replacing labour with machines is not really the problem here; agriculture and industry still require lots of people, it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. The profits are going to software and finance, but we still need the agriculture and industry to run, and they still need lots of people.

coralreef 5y ago
Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. If wage growth isn't coming organically for whatever reason, then some form of wage subsidy will need to occur. Or, you just have large swaths of lower middle class people in a growing state of contempt for the city dwelling elites.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  > Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. Well-intention but top down policies meeting agriculture has almost always resulted in mass starvation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    Our agriculture industry is heavily subsidized throughout by “top down policies”.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      Subsidies are very different from micromanagement. Also, the US is not even the top country when it comes to agri subsidies. https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectionism/agricultural-subsidies/ https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectio...
  - antifa 5y ago
    "Only communists try to solve problems" is not a good argument.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      Yes, and that was not my argument. The argument was "only communists try to solve OTHER people's problems for them and end up creating more problems for OTHER people than they started with"
      - antifa 5y ago
        Congrats on defining the vast majority of good people as "communists" while simultaneously virtue signaling "communism bad".
        cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Congrats on not following one iota of my argument. I personally think communism caused mass starvations that killed millions are bad. If that makes me an evil capitalist, so be it. (As someone who has lived through one such micro famine in a socialist country, I feel I am entitled to that opinion.)
        5y ago
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
> it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. Coincidentally - they're also the most competitive / not monopolies.
thereare5lights 5y ago
> Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. You can't just say that and then not say why you think that.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
All of those technologies had extremely low investment due to the competition with an oft-abused migrant worker class sacrificing for their families. This was short term thinking because the human race would have been better off with more investment here.

throwaway6734 5y ago

Agree. We already essentially do this with social security.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

"Capturing the value from the means of production" unfortunately but unsurprisingly leads to chronic under-investment in the means of production, as those who would otherwise invest in capital are uninterested in seeing its value captured. This road leads to poverty, not prosperity (and more inflation as more money chases fewer goods produced in fewer factories by fewer workers).

danaris 5y ago
Cry me a river for the people who will be making only 300 million dollars a year in net profit, rather than 500 million. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this hole: "We have to do everything we can to appease the wealthiest, or they'll stop gracing us with jobs!"
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Ah yes, this would be the “supply side doesn’t even exist” economics of 21st century meme politics.
  - SantalBlush 5y ago
    Meme politics is pretending that only a binary exists between laissez-faire and communism.
    - aeternum 5y ago
      The sad part is most of the presidential candidates seem be trying their hardest to turn that pretend into reality.
coralreef 5y ago
I don't buy this. Trickle down economics is bullshit. Investment happens anywhere there is a chance of positive return. Investing in new technology either as an inventor/entrepreneur or dumb money still offers returns exponentially higher than anything else, should it work out. There is a point where excessive taxation/regulation hurts innovation, but I don't think we're anywhere near that.