6 ms·

> how a few individuals can flood the short-term rental market in an area. And, if it's like some cities (Dublin, Galway), they do this at the expense of the

> how a few individuals can flood the short-term rental market in an area. And, if it's like some cities (Dublin, Galway), they do this at the expense of the long-term rental market.

disgruntledphd2 5y ago
Yeah, but at least the Irish regulations are now involving Revenue, which means they'll be implemented. A common strategy in Irish government is if there's a problem, and you don't really want to do anything but want to make it look like you're doing something, then you give it to local government to implement, as they won't have the resources to do it. As a bonus, you get to point to the law, secure in the knowledge that it won't be implemented.
Freak_NL 5y ago
That is one of the given reasons the municipality pursues this. There is a housing crisis in the Netherlands, so that gives some context to this.
- iso1631 5y ago
  > There is a housing crisis in the Netherlands Is there any western city where there isn't a housing crisis?
  - pastacacioepepe 5y ago
    Perhaps there's something deeply wrong with western housing systems? I don't want to sound too radical, but this seems to be inextricably connected to capitalism. We won't ever solve it without structural changes. What Amsterdam is doing is a decent start at least.
    - hatchnyc 5y ago
      It's old vs young, new vs established. For most homeowners, their home is their most valuable asset. It's just not possible to simultaneously maintain high property values and have affordable housing. Given this, any "solution" to housing affordability is "solving" a problem that a sizable and highly influential segment of the population doesn't want solved. On the contrary, you see real government action whenever home prices fall.
      - dorchadas 5y ago
        And that's what I think OP was alluding to about it being "inextricably connected to capitalism". As long as we treat housing like an asset, we'll have this problem. And I don't see how there's any other way to treat housing under a capitalist system.
        AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        The problem isn't a result of treating housing as an asset, it's a structural regulatory problem. Housing is treated as an asset in Tokyo, but they don't have the same regulatory constraints on zoning, so they don't have outrageous housing prices.
        imtringued 5y ago
        You mean an asset with a guaranteed return at the expense of late arrivals who must buy the asset from you. The vast majority of rent seeking is based around coercion. When people advocate for free markets nature seeps through. After all, coercion is completely natural. We don't have heaven on earth so why would a free market lead to the ultimate manifestation of heaven? Get rid of the coercion and you get rid of the problems.
      - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
        That's a good point. By some measures it isn't just the wealthy keeping the poor vulnerable; it's everyone who isn't poor. In this case, middle class voters. In the US, our shortsightedness has begun threatening the lower-middle class. People with some cash in the bank are facing homelessness, due to a historic lack of housing. The housing shortage came following dozens of contributors including NIMBY, AirBnB, single-use zoning, tunnel-vision'd pols/voters, corp house buyers, etc. Pointing to a single factor delays solutions.
        AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        It's not really multiple factors. There was only one. Restrictive zoning. That constrained supply. Everything else is just the various parties fighting over the now-insufficient housing supply.
    - jupp0r 5y ago
      The discussion here is centered around very desirable centralized locations. Out in the countryside things look very different. You can buy surprisingly cheap houses 2h outside of Berlin. Nobody does.
      - dundarious 5y ago
        You also need an income to live.
        iso1631 5y ago
        Buy a house 40 years ago, pay your mortgage like a good workerbee Finish paying mortgage, use the equity to buy a house 20 years ago and rent it out. Rent income > mortgage interest (and capital too) House price increases, use equity to buy a few more houses. Fast forward to today, you have 3 million in equity and 10k/month coming in after costs.
    - rocqua 5y ago
      Houses are assets. Houses were the most commonly owned assets, so governments that increased the price of housing made most of the middle class richer, making those policies popular. Re-formulating the above, making housing expensive is popular policy. Doing that policy long enough causes new entrants into the market to not be able to afford housing. So yes, there is something wrong with our housing system. Part of that is that we marketed 'own your house' as a great way to earn money, and then made good on that promise at the expense of new entrants into the market.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      The US was the land of the free because there wasn't an existing land owner dynasty. Now there is.
  - mrep 5y ago
    Pretty much the entire midwest and southern US [0]. Granted, they benefit from basically having no geographical barriers to sprawling and building out ever more subdivisions and americans don't seem to mind suburbs. [0]: https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/ https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/
    - drdec 5y ago
      Don't forget about the rust belt. Our problem is no one wants to live here.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      Why wouldn't American's mind the burbs? In the midwest you get a huge really nice house with a garage, with as much storage and rooms as you could ever desire for hobbies and/or children, lots of land for pets and gardening on the cheap. Like half the cost of a run-down shack in a place like Boston cheap. All ~20 minutes from downtown where there is plenty of parking and a 10 minute walk to your suburb's satellite "downtown." You won't make SV money but cost of living is unreal. I pull well over the 6 figure mark while getting to put ~60% of my take-home pay straight into savings and investments. And I'm not even close to frugal.
      - nebula8804 5y ago
        This whole COVID crisis has rekindled what I think many already knew. That neighbors and the overall community as a whole contribute to the value of the house. The crisis is basically over in the urban areas and the blue suburbs. Not so for rural. You can't change how other people think but you can choose to live near like minded people(which is what seems to be happening). Today its dealing with the crisis, tomorrow its something else. I don't know how prevalent this thinking is but it could be on peoples minds as they look at property.
      - KingMachiavelli 5y ago
        It depends on the suburb. Midwestern suburbs don't really have the downtown in the same way large cities do. IME they are either just glorified strip malls or touristy places. (TBH I'd really like to know how so many chain restaurants can remain in business... is it just a real estate investment?). Once you account for some states have terrible weather, dysfunctional state governments, higher property taxes, etc. it might not make sense to trade a a net 20% change in overall CoL if it means you have significantly less to do. If your first thoughts are kids, pets, and gardening than sure the midwest is pretty good. If your primary concerns are career advancement, educated social/dating pool, variety in food and music, niche/luxury hobbies like skiing or surfing, etc. then your options for places to live becomes essentially drastically smaller and more competitive. That said there are certain midwest cities that might strike a good balance.
  - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
    Finland is ok. A square meter in the capital area goes for about 1.5 months of net average wage, and about a monthly income in other provincial towns. A decent house can be had for ~10 years of single income The benefits of not being a tourist destination
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      10 years considering the taxes still makes it pretty bad... Really why I don't want to live there. Other cities are somewhat more sane, but still should be cheaper.
mandmandam 5y ago
Poor Galway. The rental situation there is utterly bananas; while buildings are lying vacant for years in the heart of the city. Yes, the rest of the country is like this too, but for whatever reason Galway seems to have it extra bad; I know families that have split up over it.
- dorchadas 5y ago
  Yeah, I know how bad it was when I was trying to find a spot in 2016; I can only imagine now. I actually dread trying to stay in Dublin after I finish this masters (I'm an international post-grad, so I was able to avail of UCD's scheme for on-campus living thankfully), but I almost dread going to Galway more (though ideally, that's where I'll be).
simias 5y ago
And the housing market at large, since they also buy flats to turn them into short term rentals.
- prox 5y ago
  Decreasing house availability and upping prices, in turn making more money. Starters are usually the victims in this trend.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Developers were building apartments that were meant for the short-term rental market, too. Even the small amount of new housing that did get built were short-term rentals.
pietrovismara 5y ago
Pretty much the same happens in Firenze, Italy.
nerdponx 5y ago
I've heard a lot of anecdotes suggesting that this has happened in many cities across the world. It certainly seemed to be a trend in New York for a while, which was/is already suffering with restricted supply, wild speculation, and immense demand driving up prices.
subpixel 5y ago
I moved away and returned to NYC twice between 2010 and 2020 - both times it was impossible to miss the impact AirBnB had on the residential rental supply. All over the city, wherever weekly demand was high enough (read, in any neighborhood remotely desirable), rental housing stock was lost to short-term rentals.

> how a few individuals can flood the short-term rental market in an area. And, if it's like some cities (Dublin, Galway), they do this at the expense of the long-term rental market.

disgruntledphd2 5y ago

Yeah, but at least the Irish regulations are now involving Revenue, which means they'll be implemented. A common strategy in Irish government is if there's a problem, and you don't really want to do anything but want to make it look like you're doing something, then you give it to local government to implement, as they won't have the resources to do it. As a bonus, you get to point to the law, secure in the knowledge that it won't be implemented.

Freak_NL 5y ago

That is one of the given reasons the municipality pursues this. There is a housing crisis in the Netherlands, so that gives some context to this.

iso1631 5y ago
> There is a housing crisis in the Netherlands Is there any western city where there isn't a housing crisis?
- pastacacioepepe 5y ago
  Perhaps there's something deeply wrong with western housing systems? I don't want to sound too radical, but this seems to be inextricably connected to capitalism. We won't ever solve it without structural changes. What Amsterdam is doing is a decent start at least.
  - hatchnyc 5y ago
    It's old vs young, new vs established. For most homeowners, their home is their most valuable asset. It's just not possible to simultaneously maintain high property values and have affordable housing. Given this, any "solution" to housing affordability is "solving" a problem that a sizable and highly influential segment of the population doesn't want solved. On the contrary, you see real government action whenever home prices fall.
    - dorchadas 5y ago
      And that's what I think OP was alluding to about it being "inextricably connected to capitalism". As long as we treat housing like an asset, we'll have this problem. And I don't see how there's any other way to treat housing under a capitalist system.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        The problem isn't a result of treating housing as an asset, it's a structural regulatory problem. Housing is treated as an asset in Tokyo, but they don't have the same regulatory constraints on zoning, so they don't have outrageous housing prices.
      - imtringued 5y ago
        You mean an asset with a guaranteed return at the expense of late arrivals who must buy the asset from you. The vast majority of rent seeking is based around coercion. When people advocate for free markets nature seeps through. After all, coercion is completely natural. We don't have heaven on earth so why would a free market lead to the ultimate manifestation of heaven? Get rid of the coercion and you get rid of the problems.
    - WarOnPrivacy 5y ago
      That's a good point. By some measures it isn't just the wealthy keeping the poor vulnerable; it's everyone who isn't poor. In this case, middle class voters. In the US, our shortsightedness has begun threatening the lower-middle class. People with some cash in the bank are facing homelessness, due to a historic lack of housing. The housing shortage came following dozens of contributors including NIMBY, AirBnB, single-use zoning, tunnel-vision'd pols/voters, corp house buyers, etc. Pointing to a single factor delays solutions.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        It's not really multiple factors. There was only one. Restrictive zoning. That constrained supply. Everything else is just the various parties fighting over the now-insufficient housing supply.
  - jupp0r 5y ago
    The discussion here is centered around very desirable centralized locations. Out in the countryside things look very different. You can buy surprisingly cheap houses 2h outside of Berlin. Nobody does.
    - dundarious 5y ago
      You also need an income to live.
      - iso1631 5y ago
        Buy a house 40 years ago, pay your mortgage like a good workerbee Finish paying mortgage, use the equity to buy a house 20 years ago and rent it out. Rent income > mortgage interest (and capital too) House price increases, use equity to buy a few more houses. Fast forward to today, you have 3 million in equity and 10k/month coming in after costs.
  - rocqua 5y ago
    Houses are assets. Houses were the most commonly owned assets, so governments that increased the price of housing made most of the middle class richer, making those policies popular. Re-formulating the above, making housing expensive is popular policy. Doing that policy long enough causes new entrants into the market to not be able to afford housing. So yes, there is something wrong with our housing system. Part of that is that we marketed 'own your house' as a great way to earn money, and then made good on that promise at the expense of new entrants into the market.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    The US was the land of the free because there wasn't an existing land owner dynasty. Now there is.
- mrep 5y ago
  Pretty much the entire midwest and southern US [0]. Granted, they benefit from basically having no geographical barriers to sprawling and building out ever more subdivisions and americans don't seem to mind suburbs. [0]: https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/ https://www.supermoney.com/inflation-adjusted-home-prices/
  - drdec 5y ago
    Don't forget about the rust belt. Our problem is no one wants to live here.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Why wouldn't American's mind the burbs? In the midwest you get a huge really nice house with a garage, with as much storage and rooms as you could ever desire for hobbies and/or children, lots of land for pets and gardening on the cheap. Like half the cost of a run-down shack in a place like Boston cheap. All ~20 minutes from downtown where there is plenty of parking and a 10 minute walk to your suburb's satellite "downtown." You won't make SV money but cost of living is unreal. I pull well over the 6 figure mark while getting to put ~60% of my take-home pay straight into savings and investments. And I'm not even close to frugal.
    - nebula8804 5y ago
      This whole COVID crisis has rekindled what I think many already knew. That neighbors and the overall community as a whole contribute to the value of the house. The crisis is basically over in the urban areas and the blue suburbs. Not so for rural. You can't change how other people think but you can choose to live near like minded people(which is what seems to be happening). Today its dealing with the crisis, tomorrow its something else. I don't know how prevalent this thinking is but it could be on peoples minds as they look at property.
    - KingMachiavelli 5y ago
      It depends on the suburb. Midwestern suburbs don't really have the downtown in the same way large cities do. IME they are either just glorified strip malls or touristy places. (TBH I'd really like to know how so many chain restaurants can remain in business... is it just a real estate investment?). Once you account for some states have terrible weather, dysfunctional state governments, higher property taxes, etc. it might not make sense to trade a a net 20% change in overall CoL if it means you have significantly less to do. If your first thoughts are kids, pets, and gardening than sure the midwest is pretty good. If your primary concerns are career advancement, educated social/dating pool, variety in food and music, niche/luxury hobbies like skiing or surfing, etc. then your options for places to live becomes essentially drastically smaller and more competitive. That said there are certain midwest cities that might strike a good balance.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  Finland is ok. A square meter in the capital area goes for about 1.5 months of net average wage, and about a monthly income in other provincial towns. A decent house can be had for ~10 years of single income The benefits of not being a tourist destination
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    10 years considering the taxes still makes it pretty bad... Really why I don't want to live there. Other cities are somewhat more sane, but still should be cheaper.

mandmandam 5y ago

Poor Galway. The rental situation there is utterly bananas; while buildings are lying vacant for years in the heart of the city. Yes, the rest of the country is like this too, but for whatever reason Galway seems to have it extra bad; I know families that have split up over it.

dorchadas 5y ago
Yeah, I know how bad it was when I was trying to find a spot in 2016; I can only imagine now. I actually dread trying to stay in Dublin after I finish this masters (I'm an international post-grad, so I was able to avail of UCD's scheme for on-campus living thankfully), but I almost dread going to Galway more (though ideally, that's where I'll be).

simias 5y ago

And the housing market at large, since they also buy flats to turn them into short term rentals.

prox 5y ago
Decreasing house availability and upping prices, in turn making more money. Starters are usually the victims in this trend.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Developers were building apartments that were meant for the short-term rental market, too. Even the small amount of new housing that did get built were short-term rentals.

pietrovismara 5y ago

Pretty much the same happens in Firenze, Italy.

nerdponx 5y ago

I've heard a lot of anecdotes suggesting that this has happened in many cities across the world. It certainly seemed to be a trend in New York for a while, which was/is already suffering with restricted supply, wild speculation, and immense demand driving up prices.

subpixel 5y ago

I moved away and returned to NYC twice between 2010 and 2020 - both times it was impossible to miss the impact AirBnB had on the residential rental supply. All over the city, wherever weekly demand was high enough (read, in any neighborhood remotely desirable), rental housing stock was lost to short-term rentals.