5 ms·

In the article we are discussing, the gist of your concerns is addressed. The pinephone (and mobile Linux in general) is extremely immature and only really for

In the article we are discussing, the gist of your concerns is addressed. The pinephone (and mobile Linux in general) is extremely immature and only really for hobbyists and people developing for it. You expected a daily driver, right now it is a toy for nerds. Lack of users, investment and too many competing distros were all given in the early days of desktop Linux as reasons why it was simply not worthwhile. The thing is, this phase of development, where some devices exist that only nerds play with for a while, is necessary for there to ever be a mature Linux mobile UX. When you buy one of these devices you're not buying a Linux phone, you're choosing to participate in the process by which a Linux phone becomes a reality. And that process is picking up steam, Ubuntu tried it, many people have run Linux on their android devices with unlocked bootloaders, but pine (and librem and others) have actually created a market environment where things are actually advancing, and in my opinion advancing much faster than desktop Linux did.

Aeolun 5y ago
> right now it is a toy for nerds I have some standards for my toys though. If it’s sold as a phone, it should actually work as a phone (even a shitty one). If they were selling it as a mini linux computer with integrated screen I wouldn’t mind so much.
- necrotic_comp 5y ago
  That's how I'm seeing this - as a mini linux computer with the ability to make calls and send text messages at some point in the future. Just a linux computer with a cellular modem sounds amazing to me, tbh.
  - nottaylorswift 5y ago
    Then buy any of the 3 billion Android handsets. Most average $100 and were out of beta in 08'.
    - necrotic_comp 5y ago
      Android handsets aren't really linux boxes. I can't ssh into them, I can't write little python scripts, etc. An actual, general purpose, real foss portable phone factor computer will be amazing as it matures.
      - nottaylorswift 5y ago
        There's nothing new here. I remember having those features in the Nokia N900 in 09. I think this product is grossly overpriced for a cheap generic Android phone loaded with a beta Linux distro. In Shenzhen they'll sell you a case of 50 for $400. Save your money or buy a Quest 2.
        oynqr 5y ago
        Except this one is going to run a close to mainline kernel pretty soon and those android phones will be stuck in the last decade, forever.
        Ekaros 5y ago
        How soon is other software on it is usable? Kernel really doesn't matter too much if rest is unusable...
        nottaylorswift 5y ago
        It took Google tens of thousands of paid top tier developer hours to make Android useable. I'm betting never. In a year or two there's going to be some nasty passive aggressive apology blaming the woes of the world for why it couldn't happen and these guys will go home with their big sack of money. Seriously you want a shit Android ARM phone loaded with a beta Linux distro? Let's order a lot from Shenzhen and everyone can pay the $50 it's worth.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
- bluGill 5y ago
  They have always been honest about what it is for. It is your fault for not knowing that when ordering. A little research reveals plenty of people are using it as their daily phone, but all agree that there are rough edges to fix.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  Well, it does work as a phone; you can call telephone numbers with it. But that's not what you mean when you say "phone" is it? The word "phone" is synonymous at this point with "mini computer." What if it were sold as a phone with a big caveat, loudly announced, that said "this thing is for tinkerers and developers and is not ready for causal daily use"? That's the thing, it is marketed that way. You bought something you didn't want, you want what it is going to be, and we are all very excited about it and a bit impatient, but we cannot blame the product for ourselves being impatient.
- fouric 5y ago
  It's not the Pine organization's fault that you have a different definition of "toy" and "phone" than they do - and it's definitely your fault that you didn't read the numerous prominent disclaimers spread all across their site that the PinePhone is not a finished product.
  - reginold 5y ago
    I hear you both. I'm new to Linux, and when the Pinephone said it was for "advanced Linux users" I figured "how hard can it be?". I bought one and 24 hours later decided to pass it on. Turns out they really do mean "advanced"! > This is the Beta Edition of the PinePhone. The pre-installed Manjaro with Plasma Mobile OS, that ships with this edition of the PinePhone, is a beta software build. This effectively means that while core functionality of the PinePhone still an ongoing effort. Thus, the device cannot considered a consumer-ready product.
- jjulius 5y ago
  It literally says "Beta" for each phone that is for sale. https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/?v=0446c16e2e66 https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/?v=0446c16e2e6...
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    That’s the same as not expecting an ‘early access’ game to not actually be a game. You go into beta when your shit works to work out the last bugs, not when you have a barely functional MVP.
- josteink 5y ago
  > I have some standards for my toys though. If it’s sold as a phone, it should actually work as a phone (even a shitty one). It is sold as Phone hardware with explicit remarks about software being a community effort and that you load it with whatever you like. Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free? Of course not. That’s not a hardware-matter. Same here with Pine64 and the PinePhone. They’re selling you hardware. And that’s it.
  - RussianCow 5y ago
    > Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free? No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software that regularly crashes your OS or prevents everyday functionality from working, people would be returning those PCs en masse, even if the hardware maker wasn't responsible for the software at all.[0] Even if you only "sell" the hardware, customers expect the full package to work. That's not to say I agree with all the complaints here, though; this case is different because Pine64 has numerous disclaimers and warnings on the website, and they are very up front and honest about the viability of the PinePhone as a daily driver. [0]: Whenever I hear non-techy friends complain about system instability, they pretty consistently blame the computer itself, not Windows or whatever software is likely actually causing their frustration.
    - josteink 5y ago
      > No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software What you’re clearing missing is that they are not selling you software. They are selling you open, unlocked hardware to run software on, with no promises/liabilities about the software. Just like Intel, AMD, ARM, MSI, Asus, Kingston and a lot of other hardware suppliers. They even explicitly state this when you buy the phone. They are explicitly not selling you a combined hardware/software package like Apple does with the iPhone or OEMs are doing with Android. How can you then complain about this later? Edit: You might even say that this combined HW/SW appliance-model applied by the rest of the smartphone market is the exact thing they are fighting against. They are selling HW as HW, leaving users free to run the software they prefer.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I largely agree with the assessment. I am still glad I bought mine, because even though it is gathering dust, I am hoping the purchase contributed somewhat to a better mobile future. I may have mentioned it before, but default OS is just painful to use ( thankfully, there are other options ). And here is the part of the problem. I am motivated to use it. Right now it still feels so janky, most people won't even get past initial boot process.
- prox 5y ago
  I think the message / take away is : developers, developers, developers. Something that quickly evolves by the shared power of a lot of minds. If you are buying it, toss it away and don’t contribute, this will hamper future succes.
  - phero_cnstrcts 5y ago
    Is there a way to sell apps?
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Did you develop one? Remember the post you replied to was developers developers developers.
    - prox 5y ago
      I don’t know. My old phone is still working, and holding out as long as I can. Then I will buy a Linux Phone.
howlin 5y ago
I have one from a year or so ago, and it just collects dust right now. If I understood how utterly unusable it was and how unusable it would continue to be, I would have preferred to just donate to Pine's organization rather than have them send me clutter.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I'll take it off your hands and you can consider that a donation.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
squarefoot 5y ago
> When you buy one of these devices you're not buying a Linux phone, you're choosing to participate in the process by which a Linux phone becomes a reality. That is very true, and I would add that some of this reality is already in front of us. How many Android or Apple devices can run full featured office suites, graphics and audio manipulation software, development systems etc. complete browsers, electronics simulation software, etc, and I mean the real ones, not cut down mobile versions, all for free? Probably none. The problem with the PinePhone is that it still lacks functionality in those two fields where 99.9% of normal non tech users would want it to excel, that is, calls and messaging. Non tech users want it for calls, SMS, MMS and Whatsapp, period, and they very much prefer a costly Android or Apple phone that addresses those needs although it would be way inferior in everything else, including privacy and security. I think the PinePhone developers are already addressing some of these requirements, so hopefully it's a matter of time, but for most people, being able to run the WhatsApp client at decent speed would be the killer feature. No matter if run sandboxed with Android libraries, under a VM or reverse engineered; WhatsApp compatibility is the #1 feature that could bring the most users on the PinePhone bandwagon.

Aeolun 5y ago

> right now it is a toy for nerds I have some standards for my toys though. If it’s sold as a phone, it should actually work as a phone (even a shitty one). If they were selling it as a mini linux computer with integrated screen I wouldn’t mind so much.

necrotic_comp 5y ago
That's how I'm seeing this - as a mini linux computer with the ability to make calls and send text messages at some point in the future. Just a linux computer with a cellular modem sounds amazing to me, tbh.
- nottaylorswift 5y ago
  Then buy any of the 3 billion Android handsets. Most average $100 and were out of beta in 08'.
  - necrotic_comp 5y ago
    Android handsets aren't really linux boxes. I can't ssh into them, I can't write little python scripts, etc. An actual, general purpose, real foss portable phone factor computer will be amazing as it matures.
    - nottaylorswift 5y ago
      There's nothing new here. I remember having those features in the Nokia N900 in 09. I think this product is grossly overpriced for a cheap generic Android phone loaded with a beta Linux distro. In Shenzhen they'll sell you a case of 50 for $400. Save your money or buy a Quest 2.
      - oynqr 5y ago
        Except this one is going to run a close to mainline kernel pretty soon and those android phones will be stuck in the last decade, forever.
        Ekaros 5y ago
        How soon is other software on it is usable? Kernel really doesn't matter too much if rest is unusable...
        nottaylorswift 5y ago
        It took Google tens of thousands of paid top tier developer hours to make Android useable. I'm betting never. In a year or two there's going to be some nasty passive aggressive apology blaming the woes of the world for why it couldn't happen and these guys will go home with their big sack of money. Seriously you want a shit Android ARM phone loaded with a beta Linux distro? Let's order a lot from Shenzhen and everyone can pay the $50 it's worth.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
bluGill 5y ago
They have always been honest about what it is for. It is your fault for not knowing that when ordering. A little research reveals plenty of people are using it as their daily phone, but all agree that there are rough edges to fix.
betwixthewires 5y ago
Well, it does work as a phone; you can call telephone numbers with it. But that's not what you mean when you say "phone" is it? The word "phone" is synonymous at this point with "mini computer." What if it were sold as a phone with a big caveat, loudly announced, that said "this thing is for tinkerers and developers and is not ready for causal daily use"? That's the thing, it is marketed that way. You bought something you didn't want, you want what it is going to be, and we are all very excited about it and a bit impatient, but we cannot blame the product for ourselves being impatient.
fouric 5y ago
It's not the Pine organization's fault that you have a different definition of "toy" and "phone" than they do - and it's definitely your fault that you didn't read the numerous prominent disclaimers spread all across their site that the PinePhone is not a finished product.
- reginold 5y ago
  I hear you both. I'm new to Linux, and when the Pinephone said it was for "advanced Linux users" I figured "how hard can it be?". I bought one and 24 hours later decided to pass it on. Turns out they really do mean "advanced"! > This is the Beta Edition of the PinePhone. The pre-installed Manjaro with Plasma Mobile OS, that ships with this edition of the PinePhone, is a beta software build. This effectively means that while core functionality of the PinePhone still an ongoing effort. Thus, the device cannot considered a consumer-ready product.
jjulius 5y ago
It literally says "Beta" for each phone that is for sale. https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/?v=0446c16e2e66 https://pine64.com/product-category/pinephone/?v=0446c16e2e6...
- Aeolun 5y ago
  That’s the same as not expecting an ‘early access’ game to not actually be a game. You go into beta when your shit works to work out the last bugs, not when you have a barely functional MVP.
josteink 5y ago
> I have some standards for my toys though. If it’s sold as a phone, it should actually work as a phone (even a shitty one). It is sold as Phone hardware with explicit remarks about software being a community effort and that you load it with whatever you like. Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free? Of course not. That’s not a hardware-matter. Same here with Pine64 and the PinePhone. They’re selling you hardware. And that’s it.
- RussianCow 5y ago
  > Does someone who sells you a PC (HW) promise you that the software you load on it later will be bug-free? No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software that regularly crashes your OS or prevents everyday functionality from working, people would be returning those PCs en masse, even if the hardware maker wasn't responsible for the software at all.[0] Even if you only "sell" the hardware, customers expect the full package to work. That's not to say I agree with all the complaints here, though; this case is different because Pine64 has numerous disclaimers and warnings on the website, and they are very up front and honest about the viability of the PinePhone as a daily driver. [0]: Whenever I hear non-techy friends complain about system instability, they pretty consistently blame the computer itself, not Windows or whatever software is likely actually causing their frustration.
  - josteink 5y ago
    > No, but if someone was selling PCs with super buggy software What you’re clearing missing is that they are not selling you software. They are selling you open, unlocked hardware to run software on, with no promises/liabilities about the software. Just like Intel, AMD, ARM, MSI, Asus, Kingston and a lot of other hardware suppliers. They even explicitly state this when you buy the phone. They are explicitly not selling you a combined hardware/software package like Apple does with the iPhone or OEMs are doing with Android. How can you then complain about this later? Edit: You might even say that this combined HW/SW appliance-model applied by the rest of the smartphone market is the exact thing they are fighting against. They are selling HW as HW, leaving users free to run the software they prefer.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I largely agree with the assessment. I am still glad I bought mine, because even though it is gathering dust, I am hoping the purchase contributed somewhat to a better mobile future. I may have mentioned it before, but default OS is just painful to use ( thankfully, there are other options ). And here is the part of the problem. I am motivated to use it. Right now it still feels so janky, most people won't even get past initial boot process.

prox 5y ago
I think the message / take away is : developers, developers, developers. Something that quickly evolves by the shared power of a lot of minds. If you are buying it, toss it away and don’t contribute, this will hamper future succes.
- phero_cnstrcts 5y ago
  Is there a way to sell apps?
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Did you develop one? Remember the post you replied to was developers developers developers.
  - prox 5y ago
    I don’t know. My old phone is still working, and holding out as long as I can. Then I will buy a Linux Phone.

howlin 5y ago

I have one from a year or so ago, and it just collects dust right now. If I understood how utterly unusable it was and how unusable it would continue to be, I would have preferred to just donate to Pine's organization rather than have them send me clutter.

betwixthewires 5y ago
I'll take it off your hands and you can consider that a donation.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

squarefoot 5y ago

> When you buy one of these devices you're not buying a Linux phone, you're choosing to participate in the process by which a Linux phone becomes a reality. That is very true, and I would add that some of this reality is already in front of us. How many Android or Apple devices can run full featured office suites, graphics and audio manipulation software, development systems etc. complete browsers, electronics simulation software, etc, and I mean the real ones, not cut down mobile versions, all for free? Probably none. The problem with the PinePhone is that it still lacks functionality in those two fields where 99.9% of normal non tech users would want it to excel, that is, calls and messaging. Non tech users want it for calls, SMS, MMS and Whatsapp, period, and they very much prefer a costly Android or Apple phone that addresses those needs although it would be way inferior in everything else, including privacy and security. I think the PinePhone developers are already addressing some of these requirements, so hopefully it's a matter of time, but for most people, being able to run the WhatsApp client at decent speed would be the killer feature. No matter if run sandboxed with Android libraries, under a VM or reverse engineered; WhatsApp compatibility is the #1 feature that could bring the most users on the PinePhone bandwagon.