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"Privacy fears" is a bold description. You can't hide from the government in Moscow. They have all data from mobile operators – they know where your phone is a

"Privacy fears" is a bold description. You can't hide from the government in Moscow. They have all data from mobile operators – they know where your phone is at all times. They've installed cameras on almost every single house entrance. They've been using facial recognition for a few years now, with little to no information on sources of data they used for this. It's not about tracking people anymore, it's about improving the accuracy of said tracking.

vmception 5y ago
This reminds me how I was noticing similar in Monaco, a constitutional monarchy. My conclusion was that if it had poor people, then it would be seen as an authoritarian despot. But because it does not house poor people or let unhoused stick around outside, it is seen as a wealthy place where anything goes. It just doesn't encounter strife, but if it did it would be seen as authoritarian. Just an interesting inequality about how jurisdictions are perceived.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
IIRC they (Rosnano) even developed their own AI chips dedicated to image recognition to be incorporated in street CCTV cameras. Stuff that Hikvision is also doing but in China. Scary stuff but I can imagine western governments salivating at these capabilities and doing metal gymnastics on what justification to spin for the introduction of such systems here, as "terrorists" and "think of the children" have been used already.
- Factorium 5y ago
  'Contact Tracing' for COVID: https://www.9news.com.au/national/wa-police-stand-by-decision-to-use-safewa-contact-tracing-app-in-nick-martin-murder-investigation/9250eb64-b523-46ea-810d-bf09521f1e1f https://www.9news.com.au/national/wa-police-stand-by-decisio...
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Meh, contact tracing has been pretty much opt-in. There are a lot more insidious surveillance technologies being used.
    - version_five 5y ago
      Whether or not you think current contract tracing implementations are benign, it's clear that with covid governments have found a magic wand, more powerful than children or terrorism, that can be used to wave away dissent or constitutional rights "for our safety". Covid has been a huge boon to western promoters of the kind of privacy invasion your talking about
      - ahevia 5y ago
        Could you give federal level US examples to this that aren’t opt-in contact tracing? (Genuine question because perhaps I’m missing a major news event) If anything I’ve felt my privacy increase. Masks are finally normalized. What’s more private then covering half your face and not being weird for being the only person doing it? Ive walked by people I know and don’t even recognize them. If you look back at the Capitol Rioters think of how many were identified by not covering their face. I also recall the Hong Kong protestors years ago using masks & face paint to obscure themselves from facial recognition systems.
        league_ryze 5y ago
        Unfortunately, I can't give you a privacy-related example. In this case, I think that's because there have genuinely been few (if any) infringements on the privacy rights of US citizens due to this specific crisis (unlike the terrorism and CP issues). However, there have been federal-level incursions on "dissent or constitutional rights" that was mentioned in the GP post - in particular, freedom of assembly, and the sovereignty of one's own body, with what has effectively been a federal vaccine mandate (as there's little effective difference between "companies with 100 companies or more must force their employees to get vaccinated" and "every citizen must get vaccinated"). And, I'd like to point out, that yes COVID-19 is a real issue that has killed many people - as are terrorism and CP. But you know what? There's still an infringement of rights that threatens our freedom, and like both of those issues, I strongly suspect that after we get past our emotional fear of the virus, we'll realize that, even given the number of people that died, it wasn't really worth giving up our rights for (as the "temporary" powers meant to be used to fight terrorism were never given up, for instance). I encourage you to really think about the comparison between COVID-19 and 9/11 - how a real tragedy could be abused to advance the powers of a government that does not have your best interests in mind.
- aunty_helen 5y ago
  You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western sphere as well. Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or rolling out this tech already.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western sphere as well. What exactly is "smart cameras"? Today, every widget that has existed for the last 50+ years is prefixed with the word "smart" when it's been added internet access or wi-fi control (smart power plugs, smart lights, smart doorbells, etc). But from that to being able to host and run a real-time NN based image recognition is a long way. >Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or rolling out this tech already. LOL, yeah, if only. I think my city is still running the trafic control on some Siemens SCADA system from the '80s.
    - aunty_helen 5y ago
      Traffic control and monitoring are two different things. They probably have sensors tracking movements, but use state of the art 80s relay cards to control the system. "Smart cameras" in this case would be devices with edge NN classification built in. But there's always products like briefcam / good vision if they only have the regular camera feeds.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  This. I recall reading some articles in WSJ and NYT that were nearly openly wondering how we could transplant level of control exerted in China over population to US. I absolutely agree that there are power centers in US that would absolutely love to copy what Russia is doing. In a sense, it is happening already, but in a distributed way via Ring spreading like wildfire.
  - fouric 5y ago
    I'd be interested in reading these articles - would you comment or email them to me? (there's no alt contact info in your HN profile!)
    - coolgeek 5y ago
      I'm very much interested in reading these articles as well. I don't see a reason why they can't be posted publicly.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  What makes you think western government aren't already doing so - UK was, I believe, one of the first countries to be fully covered with camera and they use it extensively in policing the country. 1. Mass surveillance in the United Kingdom - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... 2. UK public faces mass invasion of privacy as big data and surveillance merge - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/public-faces-mass-invasion-of-privacy-as-big-data-and-surveillance-merge https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/public-faces...
- tommiegannert 5y ago
  Garbage identification might be one. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-56255823 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-56255823 https://www.9news.com.au/national/recycling-bins-monitored-by-ai-cameras-in-canterbury-bankstown-australian-first/cacaa7ff-0c78-4e33-838e-734a1aab795d https://www.9news.com.au/national/recycling-bins-monitored-b... (loud video) I can't ind a third one that used a camera in an alley, similar to the first one.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sergeykish 5y ago
I've heard winter protests breakdown in Saint Petersburg was much harsher because it's surveillance system is not as advanced as in Moscow.
AzzieElbab 5y ago
Well, this will get interesting if you consider one could buy all that info from Russian law enforcement very easily and cheaply

vmception 5y ago

This reminds me how I was noticing similar in Monaco, a constitutional monarchy. My conclusion was that if it had poor people, then it would be seen as an authoritarian despot. But because it does not house poor people or let unhoused stick around outside, it is seen as a wealthy place where anything goes. It just doesn't encounter strife, but if it did it would be seen as authoritarian. Just an interesting inequality about how jurisdictions are perceived.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

IIRC they (Rosnano) even developed their own AI chips dedicated to image recognition to be incorporated in street CCTV cameras. Stuff that Hikvision is also doing but in China. Scary stuff but I can imagine western governments salivating at these capabilities and doing metal gymnastics on what justification to spin for the introduction of such systems here, as "terrorists" and "think of the children" have been used already.

Factorium 5y ago
'Contact Tracing' for COVID: https://www.9news.com.au/national/wa-police-stand-by-decision-to-use-safewa-contact-tracing-app-in-nick-martin-murder-investigation/9250eb64-b523-46ea-810d-bf09521f1e1f https://www.9news.com.au/national/wa-police-stand-by-decisio...
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Meh, contact tracing has been pretty much opt-in. There are a lot more insidious surveillance technologies being used.
  - version_five 5y ago
    Whether or not you think current contract tracing implementations are benign, it's clear that with covid governments have found a magic wand, more powerful than children or terrorism, that can be used to wave away dissent or constitutional rights "for our safety". Covid has been a huge boon to western promoters of the kind of privacy invasion your talking about
    - ahevia 5y ago
      Could you give federal level US examples to this that aren’t opt-in contact tracing? (Genuine question because perhaps I’m missing a major news event) If anything I’ve felt my privacy increase. Masks are finally normalized. What’s more private then covering half your face and not being weird for being the only person doing it? Ive walked by people I know and don’t even recognize them. If you look back at the Capitol Rioters think of how many were identified by not covering their face. I also recall the Hong Kong protestors years ago using masks & face paint to obscure themselves from facial recognition systems.
      - league_ryze 5y ago
        Unfortunately, I can't give you a privacy-related example. In this case, I think that's because there have genuinely been few (if any) infringements on the privacy rights of US citizens due to this specific crisis (unlike the terrorism and CP issues). However, there have been federal-level incursions on "dissent or constitutional rights" that was mentioned in the GP post - in particular, freedom of assembly, and the sovereignty of one's own body, with what has effectively been a federal vaccine mandate (as there's little effective difference between "companies with 100 companies or more must force their employees to get vaccinated" and "every citizen must get vaccinated"). And, I'd like to point out, that yes COVID-19 is a real issue that has killed many people - as are terrorism and CP. But you know what? There's still an infringement of rights that threatens our freedom, and like both of those issues, I strongly suspect that after we get past our emotional fear of the virus, we'll realize that, even given the number of people that died, it wasn't really worth giving up our rights for (as the "temporary" powers meant to be used to fight terrorism were never given up, for instance). I encourage you to really think about the comparison between COVID-19 and 9/11 - how a real tragedy could be abused to advance the powers of a government that does not have your best interests in mind.
aunty_helen 5y ago
You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western sphere as well. Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or rolling out this tech already.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >You mean smart cameras? These exist in the western sphere as well. What exactly is "smart cameras"? Today, every widget that has existed for the last 50+ years is prefixed with the word "smart" when it's been added internet access or wi-fi control (smart power plugs, smart lights, smart doorbells, etc). But from that to being able to host and run a real-time NN based image recognition is a long way. >Your city traffic dept is probably prototyping or rolling out this tech already. LOL, yeah, if only. I think my city is still running the trafic control on some Siemens SCADA system from the '80s.
  - aunty_helen 5y ago
    Traffic control and monitoring are two different things. They probably have sensors tracking movements, but use state of the art 80s relay cards to control the system. "Smart cameras" in this case would be devices with edge NN classification built in. But there's always products like briefcam / good vision if they only have the regular camera feeds.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
This. I recall reading some articles in WSJ and NYT that were nearly openly wondering how we could transplant level of control exerted in China over population to US. I absolutely agree that there are power centers in US that would absolutely love to copy what Russia is doing. In a sense, it is happening already, but in a distributed way via Ring spreading like wildfire.
- fouric 5y ago
  I'd be interested in reading these articles - would you comment or email them to me? (there's no alt contact info in your HN profile!)
  - coolgeek 5y ago
    I'm very much interested in reading these articles as well. I don't see a reason why they can't be posted publicly.
webmobdev 5y ago
What makes you think western government aren't already doing so - UK was, I believe, one of the first countries to be fully covered with camera and they use it extensively in policing the country. 1. Mass surveillance in the United Kingdom - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_the_Unite... 2. UK public faces mass invasion of privacy as big data and surveillance merge - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/public-faces-mass-invasion-of-privacy-as-big-data-and-surveillance-merge https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/14/public-faces...
tommiegannert 5y ago
Garbage identification might be one. https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-56255823 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-56255823 https://www.9news.com.au/national/recycling-bins-monitored-by-ai-cameras-in-canterbury-bankstown-australian-first/cacaa7ff-0c78-4e33-838e-734a1aab795d https://www.9news.com.au/national/recycling-bins-monitored-b... (loud video) I can't ind a third one that used a camera in an alley, similar to the first one.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sergeykish 5y ago

I've heard winter protests breakdown in Saint Petersburg was much harsher because it's surveillance system is not as advanced as in Moscow.

AzzieElbab 5y ago

Well, this will get interesting if you consider one could buy all that info from Russian law enforcement very easily and cheaply