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As someone who works in an Eastern European country, i also did a writeup on how much i've made over the years and how that figure has changed, while working fo

As someone who works in an Eastern European country, i also did a writeup on how much i've made over the years and how that figure has changed, while working for a local company: https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings https://blog.kronis.dev/articles/on-finances-and-savings In short, this year i'll probably make around 18k Euros, in total. I guess that just goes to show how different the situation is depending on where you live and where you're employed.

gpt5 5y ago
It's crazy to me that you can basically make a lifetime of earning doing the same job in Silicon Valley for one year
- azinman2 5y ago
  Except the cost of living is wayyy lower
  - gpt5 5y ago
    Does it matter if you are comparing one year of living in the valley? You don’t need to buy a house for that.
    - dllthomas 5y ago
      It matters a whole heck of a lot, but not enough to invalidate the statement.
    - albertsondev 5y ago
      It does when a massive portion of your supposed profits are eaten by a 4-5 figure monthly rent on a flat.
      - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
        Eh you can find a two bedroom outside the city for like 3. You're still making like 2-3k more even with the higher cost of living.
  - quickthrower2 5y ago
    But that’s not the reason millions of people aren’t flocking to the US to get those higher wages.
  - zz865 5y ago
    An iphone costs more, a Corolla costs more, gasoline costs more, a washing machine costs more, a vacation in Thailand costs the same.
zuhayeer 5y ago
Engineering salaries are somewhat trimodal, and this piece helps shed some light on the completely different spectrums the three different categories companies can fall under: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/amp/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...
beebmam 5y ago
Why are these numbers so massively different across the world? Do European companies generate that much less revenue? Or are labor unions in Europe just that much less effective at bargaining? Or is productivity that much lower in Europe? (I'm not sold on any of these)
- nine_zeros 5y ago
  The addressable customer market is one big difference. American companies sell to the world. Eastern EU companies are largely stuck with eastern Europe or EU at large. The other difference is that smaller addressable market also means fewer problems to solve and thus fewer companies. As an example, engineers in China, India and Indonesia are making way more that $18k these days because there are many problems to solve, many more companies competing for the same engineers.
  - sweezyjeezy 5y ago
    But can American companies not hire these Eastern European developers to do this? If yes, why do the US salaries stay an order of magnitude larger?
    - bcrosby95 5y ago
      Some can. But hiring people in another country adds another layer or two of indirection. Anecdotally, software companies that pay the best tend to go the opposite direction: they hire people that are good at self directing and self motivating, which can remove entire layers of indirection.
    - nine_zeros 5y ago
      American companies can but the pool is not large enough to open offices there. And if they are opening international offices, it's likely going to be in Asia where there is more money to be made. If you are in EU, the offices are likely going to be in western Europe or Switzerland or UK - larger addressable markets.
    - nonameiguess 5y ago
spoonjim 5y ago
Wouldn’t you make more as a remote contractor? Even on Upwork?
- akvadrako 5y ago
  I'm not sure about Upwork, but certainly on better contracting sites like A-Team, Moonlight and Toptal. It's not even necessary to have a network.
- KronisLV 5y ago
  I actually used Upwork before finding the current company, which provided stable income while i was in University. Upwork itself oftentimes feels like a race to the bottom, but i had some interesting projects as well: everything from web development (though WordPress stuff can be frustrating), to things like stock visualization, programming for video games, some physics simulations etc. Those were all far more interesting than the CRUDs that the company developed, though thankfully i also picked up things like CI/CD, unit testing, integration testing and test automation in general, as well as many other things related both to development and DevOps. As far as finances go, working for an European company abroad would probably be the wise thing to do, or looking for a local company that pays better, as many suggest most developers should do every X years.
quantumofalpha 5y ago
You are grossly underpaid, even for eastern europe. Guys just across the border (or two) from you make 2x+ more, while paying next to nothing in taxes (5% I've heard, as faux contractors) and enjoying some of lowest CoL in europe - https://jobs.dou.ua/salaries/dynamics/ https://jobs.dou.ua/salaries/dynamics/
- thefourthchime 5y ago
  Agreed. We built up a shop in Poland. They all made 60k+ USD
- KronisLV 5y ago
  Yep, that could definitely be: especially since i started work as a student, before getting either my Bachelor's or Master's. I guess i can only say that the wisdom of needing to job hop every X years is certainly based in reality, at least when it comes to the majority of companies and earning potential.
- sireat 5y ago
  1500 net, so about 2200 brutto is not that bad for Latvia, although on the low side. It really depends on job quality as well. Considering how frugal you are, you have plenty of time to find a better gig. Pure local companies are not going to pay much better though (and Latvian state and local government gigs are even less). So one option is to move to one of the outsourcing companies or even better to a smaller company dealing with western clients.
  - quantumofalpha 5y ago
    > So one option is to move to one of the outsourcing companies or even better to a smaller company dealing with western clients. That's pretty much what most (if not almost all) of ukrainian tech is doing. And coupled with low CoL and widely abused tax loopholes, they are making bank, netting comparable money to 6 figure jobs in the west. So I'm just saying that eastern europe == poorly paid is a misconception.
franciscop 5y ago
> i probably should mention that these are the net salaries Definitely, I know in many parts of EU it's common to discuss net (specially when talking about monthly salaries) but in an English article targeted at the international community you'd be way better off sharing the gross, which is the expected way.
Strom 5y ago
You're probably being underpaid even for Latvia. The first thing you should change in your analysis is that you should compare your salary to other software developers, not the general national average for all people. I would hope that the Central Statistic Bureau of Latvia provides this data, but you'd have to search for it yourself. I'm from Estonia (immediate neighbor of Latvia with a similar history) and the statistics here [1] paint a healthier picture. The median software developer salary in Estonia for Q2 2021 was 3300€/month (39600€/year), with the average being even higher (3460€/41520€). These are national level statistics, so the numbers are even higher if you work for one of the local unicorns or Microsoft. You should probably start demanding more money. Not US levels of compensation, but at least figure out the local Latvian median for software developers and aim for that to start with. -- [1] Search for "Software developer" at https://palgad.stat.ee/en https://palgad.stat.ee/en
- fy20 5y ago
  Salaries in Lithuania are about the same as Estonia, however I've heard of contractors getting nearly €10k/mo (before tax). Even working as a shop assistant you can get up to €1500/mo, so yes I would say OP is very much underpaid.

gpt5 5y ago

It's crazy to me that you can basically make a lifetime of earning doing the same job in Silicon Valley for one year

azinman2 5y ago
Except the cost of living is wayyy lower
- gpt5 5y ago
  Does it matter if you are comparing one year of living in the valley? You don’t need to buy a house for that.
  - dllthomas 5y ago
    It matters a whole heck of a lot, but not enough to invalidate the statement.
  - albertsondev 5y ago
    It does when a massive portion of your supposed profits are eaten by a 4-5 figure monthly rent on a flat.
    - 0x0nyandesu 5y ago
      Eh you can find a two bedroom outside the city for like 3. You're still making like 2-3k more even with the higher cost of living.
- quickthrower2 5y ago
  But that’s not the reason millions of people aren’t flocking to the US to get those higher wages.
- zz865 5y ago
  An iphone costs more, a Corolla costs more, gasoline costs more, a washing machine costs more, a vacation in Thailand costs the same.

zuhayeer 5y ago

Engineering salaries are somewhat trimodal, and this piece helps shed some light on the completely different spectrums the three different categories companies can fall under: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/amp/ https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala...

beebmam 5y ago

Why are these numbers so massively different across the world? Do European companies generate that much less revenue? Or are labor unions in Europe just that much less effective at bargaining? Or is productivity that much lower in Europe? (I'm not sold on any of these)

nine_zeros 5y ago
The addressable customer market is one big difference. American companies sell to the world. Eastern EU companies are largely stuck with eastern Europe or EU at large. The other difference is that smaller addressable market also means fewer problems to solve and thus fewer companies. As an example, engineers in China, India and Indonesia are making way more that $18k these days because there are many problems to solve, many more companies competing for the same engineers.
- sweezyjeezy 5y ago
  But can American companies not hire these Eastern European developers to do this? If yes, why do the US salaries stay an order of magnitude larger?
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    Some can. But hiring people in another country adds another layer or two of indirection. Anecdotally, software companies that pay the best tend to go the opposite direction: they hire people that are good at self directing and self motivating, which can remove entire layers of indirection.
  - nine_zeros 5y ago
    American companies can but the pool is not large enough to open offices there. And if they are opening international offices, it's likely going to be in Asia where there is more money to be made. If you are in EU, the offices are likely going to be in western Europe or Switzerland or UK - larger addressable markets.
  - nonameiguess 5y ago

spoonjim 5y ago

Wouldn’t you make more as a remote contractor? Even on Upwork?

akvadrako 5y ago
I'm not sure about Upwork, but certainly on better contracting sites like A-Team, Moonlight and Toptal. It's not even necessary to have a network.
KronisLV 5y ago
I actually used Upwork before finding the current company, which provided stable income while i was in University. Upwork itself oftentimes feels like a race to the bottom, but i had some interesting projects as well: everything from web development (though WordPress stuff can be frustrating), to things like stock visualization, programming for video games, some physics simulations etc. Those were all far more interesting than the CRUDs that the company developed, though thankfully i also picked up things like CI/CD, unit testing, integration testing and test automation in general, as well as many other things related both to development and DevOps. As far as finances go, working for an European company abroad would probably be the wise thing to do, or looking for a local company that pays better, as many suggest most developers should do every X years.

quantumofalpha 5y ago

You are grossly underpaid, even for eastern europe. Guys just across the border (or two) from you make 2x+ more, while paying next to nothing in taxes (5% I've heard, as faux contractors) and enjoying some of lowest CoL in europe - https://jobs.dou.ua/salaries/dynamics/ https://jobs.dou.ua/salaries/dynamics/

thefourthchime 5y ago
Agreed. We built up a shop in Poland. They all made 60k+ USD
KronisLV 5y ago
Yep, that could definitely be: especially since i started work as a student, before getting either my Bachelor's or Master's. I guess i can only say that the wisdom of needing to job hop every X years is certainly based in reality, at least when it comes to the majority of companies and earning potential.
sireat 5y ago
1500 net, so about 2200 brutto is not that bad for Latvia, although on the low side. It really depends on job quality as well. Considering how frugal you are, you have plenty of time to find a better gig. Pure local companies are not going to pay much better though (and Latvian state and local government gigs are even less). So one option is to move to one of the outsourcing companies or even better to a smaller company dealing with western clients.
- quantumofalpha 5y ago
  > So one option is to move to one of the outsourcing companies or even better to a smaller company dealing with western clients. That's pretty much what most (if not almost all) of ukrainian tech is doing. And coupled with low CoL and widely abused tax loopholes, they are making bank, netting comparable money to 6 figure jobs in the west. So I'm just saying that eastern europe == poorly paid is a misconception.

franciscop 5y ago

> i probably should mention that these are the net salaries Definitely, I know in many parts of EU it's common to discuss net (specially when talking about monthly salaries) but in an English article targeted at the international community you'd be way better off sharing the gross, which is the expected way.

Strom 5y ago

You're probably being underpaid even for Latvia. The first thing you should change in your analysis is that you should compare your salary to other software developers, not the general national average for all people. I would hope that the Central Statistic Bureau of Latvia provides this data, but you'd have to search for it yourself. I'm from Estonia (immediate neighbor of Latvia with a similar history) and the statistics here [1] paint a healthier picture. The median software developer salary in Estonia for Q2 2021 was 3300€/month (39600€/year), with the average being even higher (3460€/41520€). These are national level statistics, so the numbers are even higher if you work for one of the local unicorns or Microsoft. You should probably start demanding more money. Not US levels of compensation, but at least figure out the local Latvian median for software developers and aim for that to start with. -- [1] Search for "Software developer" at https://palgad.stat.ee/en https://palgad.stat.ee/en

fy20 5y ago
Salaries in Lithuania are about the same as Estonia, however I've heard of contractors getting nearly €10k/mo (before tax). Even working as a shop assistant you can get up to €1500/mo, so yes I would say OP is very much underpaid.