7 ms·

Walgreens to Close 5 Stores in San Francisco, Citing ‘Organized’ Shoplifting

39 points by gk1 5y ago

unethical_ban 5y ago
On one hand, I'm always suspicious of businesses closing and citing outside factors, so I wonder if these were less profitable even without the thefts. But let's assume good faith. Why, oh why, is this such a problem in SF and Oregon? Are police and the city really not pursuing charges against most of these thieves? This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. It shouldn't be politically partisan to say that widespread theft (much less theft for profit) is a bad thing for a community.
- finfinfin 5y ago
  Sounds like you are very new to this extremely polarizing discussion. This is the direct result of the provision that downgraded thefts under $1000 to a misdemeanor charge. Cops can’t be bothered to deal with most store thefts because in most cases arrests are not going to go anywhere. Plus store security is not allowed to actively interact with thieves, which means they come in, take whatever they want and just walk out. Lots of posts on /r/bayarea/ if you are curious.
  - MBCook 5y ago
    Thanks for the context for those of us outside the area.
  - xnyan 5y ago
    >Plus store security is not allowed to actively interact with thieves This is a common misunderstanding/misrepresentation. Yes, most stores have polices against physical force but those policies exist to control a minority of security guards. I've worked private retail security/loss prevention before and the attitude of most of us was a very valid "why would I risk my life and health over a toothbrush someone is walking out of the store with?" It makes zero sense. It's not my property, any paltry bonus I may get is in no way worth my safety and I'm not a cop so I don't have qualified immunity. The only guard that would tackle you at the exit is the kind of guard that has a propensity for violence and took the loss prevention job because the police and military already rejected them. Allowing your LP staff to use physical force is not going to solve retail theft.
    - _hilro 5y ago
      Eh,some people who work security/work in retail like to stand up for common decency in the neighbourhood and have a backbone so they confront the thief. > Allowing your LP staff to use physical force is not going to solve retail theft. It's going to massively reduce it.
      - xnyan 5y ago
        Terms like common decency and backbone are words used in place of payment to dupe/guilt people to work for the benefit of someone else without fair compensation. You don’t need to use emotional arguments to get someone to do something they are paid fairly to do. Theft is an economic issue. I shop in stores without armed guards everywhere because I don’t live in an area with an massive level of income disparity like San Francisco.
        slowhand09 5y ago
        Terms like common decency and backbone are words used to describe how we should all be. People branding anything promoting social and personal responsibility for the public good - as negative, are typically part of the problem rather than the solution. Why didn't you go a tiny bit further and say "dog whistle"?
        xnyan 5y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Fix economic problems is my position, leave subjectives like decent and should to philosophers.
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      > "why would I risk my life and health over a toothbrush someone is walking out of the store with?" Because it's your job, and because the outcome of not stopping it is the rotting of your community, as we see here. Why have that job if it's revealed it is actually less than security theater? I sense I come off a bit hostile, but "not doing anything" results in what we now see. And if your job isn't to stop theft, then what is it? Perhaps a job with physical dangers should get paid more and have better health benefits, but to say "not my job" removes pay from the discussion.
  - illinx 5y ago
    Why aren't CVS, who have more downtown SF locations than Walgreens, facing similar pressures?
    - refurb 5y ago
      Why do you assume they aren’t? Last time I was in a CVS, I had to have someone unlock a display case to buy deodorant.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - aapl88889 5y ago
      I encourage you to Google "CVS San Francisco theft" and see how many results you find
    - kgin 5y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/us/san-francisco-shoplifting-walgreens/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/us/san-francisco-shoplifting-... > Ben Dugan, CVS director of organized retail crime and corporate investigations, also provided internal data at the hearing showing similar issues concentrated in San Francisco. There are 155 CVS stores in the Bay Area, including 12 in San Francisco; yet those 12 stores make up 26% of all shoplifting incidents in the region, CVS said. > He called San Francisco "one of the epicenters of organized retail crime" and said the items are being stolen with the intent of selling them for re-profit.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Are police and the city really not pursuing charges against most of these thieves? They really aren’t.
  - xhkkffbf 5y ago
    Yup. It's common ignore theft under a number around $950. Technically it's a misdemeanor but they just don't seem to go after the criminal unless some video goes viral. One friend witnessed a guy bring a handtruck into the pharmacy and cart out an entire display.
    - sequel_database 5y ago
      Joey "picked up a rack of timex watches and threw it over my shoulder like a body in Vietnam" Diaz
- swearwolf 5y ago
  I can't speak for San Francisco, but I can speak for Portland. There's a lot that's going on that feeds into this. I've been trying to construct a workable narrative for myself, to help explain holistically why the city I live in has fallen apart so much in the last year and a half. This is what I've learned so far: 1.) The police in Portland were barely interested in dealing with property crime before the massive uptick in 2020. They'd show up...eventually, but they certainly weren't going to show up in time to stop anyone and any investigation was minimal. 2.) The newly elected DA in Portland is a strong believer in restorative justice, and avoiding incarceration when possible. He is also a vocal critic of the police, which has earned him their ire. This has created a circular animosity that manifests in the police not bothering to do their jobs in documenting and investing crimes, because they don't' feel like the DA's office are going to do theirs by prosecuting them. 3.) Judges in Multnomah County, where Portland sits, tend towards light sentencing. 4.) During COVID, the court system effectively shut down for a while. This generated an enormous backlog. The net effect is that there are many people currently awaiting hearings for very serious offenses, who in ordinary times would be in jail, but aren't because of jail capacity issues. 5.) Multnomah County has underbuilt jails for years, and doesn't have much capacity in the ones they haven't closed yet. 6.) Due to COVID, the courts are very reluctant to remand anyone to custody except in the most violent cases. There are numerous reports of violent offenders being immediately released because there's no room in jail while maintaining the recommended COVID guidelines. 7.) Recently Oregon, through a ballot measure, decriminalized user amounts of pretty much all narcotics. The jury's still out on how that's playing out, but it's looking like we may have inadvertently invited a lot of transient drug users to come live here. 8.) There's a massive homeless population in Portland. Almost every neighborhood has one or more encampments. It's not uncommon to see things like stolen and stripped cars, bikes, and other property concentrated around them, because theft is the primary way that these folks have made money. 9.) There's been a massive uptick in meth use across the western United States, which is going under reported because of the opioid crisis. The meth in question is industrially made in Mexico, using P2P as the base. This particular formulation of meth has a very different effect on users than previous formulations (which were based on ephidrine). Ephidrine based meth tends to make people euphoric and sociable, while P2P based meth tends to make people paranoid and aggressive, and in higher doses it mimics the symptoms of schizophrenia. Sam Quinones' new book "The Least of Us" goes into fascinating detail about all this. 10.) Oregon has an awful mental health system, which is way overburdened. The net effect of this is that a lot of people with behavioral problems end up on the street, where they co-mingle with the rest of the homeless population. 11.) There's been an enormous uptick in shootings in Portland, owing to a gang war between the West Side 18th Street, the Young Come Ups, and a few others. There was an inciting incident earlier in the summer where a member of one gang killed members of another at a memorial service, and it's been an escalating series of gun battles ever since. This has seriously overtaxed the police, to the point that in some shootings, one office has been left to process the scene entirely alone because the rest had to go to another shooting. 11.) Police are quitting, for various reasons that range from mask mandates to anger and solidarity that the DA prosecuted one of their own for use of force during the 2020 riots. Portland already had a very low per-capita number of police to begin with. 12.) Until about June, there were two or three activist gatherings per week, and at least one of these usually turned into a small group of people either directly antagonizing the police at their headquarters, or marching around smashing windows and setting dumpster fires. This, too, kept the police very busy. 13.) The culture in Portland forgives a lot of anti-authority things. Theft is excused is "survival crimes". Vandalism is tolerated and sometimes praised, especially if it's enacted against larger corporate businesses. You'll get no pushback for saying "All cops are bastards" to a random stranger in public. 14.) There is an activist culture here that will fight City Hall tooth and nail on any attempt at remediating anything. Attempts to clean up homeless camps are met with protests, sometimes by armed activists. An entire city block was occupied by armed protestors for a month or so last December. So, in summary, burnt out/jaded cops, relatively soft on crime judicial system stretched to it's max, homeless crisis, meth crisis, fentanyl crisis, general culture of disrespect for authority. Not sure how much of this is true in San Francisco, but I think a lot of them are generally true across the larger West Coast cities.
- RegnisGnaw 5y ago
  > This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. I honestly think that the negative PR from that would be worse then closing the stores.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    Why? Rich people don't want to shop during a burglary, and poor people who don't even have a credit card don't have influence.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  > This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. Why is the failure Walgreens'? Forcing customers to show ID or provide a credit card would make for a horrible customer experience and inevitably lead to confrontations involving staff. Maybe if communities where shoplifting has basically been sanctioned lose enough stores, residents will force change.
m0llusk 5y ago
One specific detail that comes up is that Walgreens has specifically ordered its employees to not get involved. Some of the stores have dedicated security, but they tend to get overwhelmed and not all stores are covered all of the time. The breakdown in enforcement is part of this. Much of the problem is related to the rest of the cycle. That is, even if there are still RFID tags on the stolen items they still get sold in bulk at local street sales and such. There is some hope that enforcement on that end will pick up as the $950 limit is easier to hit and demonstrate and there has at least in SF been some rhetoric about giving sellers and fences some enforcement which might help. Another thing to keep in mind is that at this point many of those involved are more or less completely outside society. They don't have skills, jobs, housing, family, or traditional networks. That makes enforcement tricky since incarceration is nearly the only tool and that gives them free room and board as well as opportunities for networking and developing their criminal skills like lockpicking and gang organization.
- gpapilion 5y ago
  It’s also worth pointing out Walgreens, Apple, and other retailers usually do not press charges on the rare occasion when the groups are stopped or caught. This does not improve the situation.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    Target does. Every. Single. Time. Hell, they've got their own forensics lab to help make cases against theft rings that span jurisdictions [0]. They have a commitment from the top down to put as much pressure as possible on this type of organized crime. Back when Reddit had a shoplifting sub, users would advise others to just never steal from Target — mission accomplished, I think. 0: https://corporate.target.com/article/2012/02/an-unexpected-career-target-forensic-services-labo https://corporate.target.com/article/2012/02/an-unexpected-c...
- legitster 5y ago
  Even in situations where there is a dedicated security team, they are not allowed to actually restrain or stop people. > Another thing to keep in mind is that at this point many of those involved are more or less completely outside society. Actual research on shoplifting suggests that the vast, vast majority of shoplifters are working or middle class: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248967286_Who_actually_steals_A_study_of_covertly_observed_shoplifters https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248967286_Who_actua...
nodesocket 5y ago
It’s really not that complicated, there are no deterrents against bad behavior in San Francisco and Portland. No consequences, and desperate people will break the law. Either these cities step up and support their law enforcement and stop vilifying them or these problems are only going to get worse. I know if I owned a shop in San Francisco I would have a gun at it as a deterrent. I fled SF and California in 2018 in-part because of the crime, anti-police sentiment, and lawlessness.

39 points by gk1 5y ago

On one hand, I'm always suspicious of businesses closing and citing outside factors, so I wonder if these were less profitable even without the thefts. But let's assume good faith. Why, oh why, is this such a problem in SF and Oregon? Are police and the city really not pursuing charges against most of these thieves? This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. It shouldn't be politically partisan to say that widespread theft (much less theft for profit) is a bad thing for a community.

finfinfin 5y ago
Sounds like you are very new to this extremely polarizing discussion. This is the direct result of the provision that downgraded thefts under $1000 to a misdemeanor charge. Cops can’t be bothered to deal with most store thefts because in most cases arrests are not going to go anywhere. Plus store security is not allowed to actively interact with thieves, which means they come in, take whatever they want and just walk out. Lots of posts on /r/bayarea/ if you are curious.
- MBCook 5y ago
  Thanks for the context for those of us outside the area.
- xnyan 5y ago
  >Plus store security is not allowed to actively interact with thieves This is a common misunderstanding/misrepresentation. Yes, most stores have polices against physical force but those policies exist to control a minority of security guards. I've worked private retail security/loss prevention before and the attitude of most of us was a very valid "why would I risk my life and health over a toothbrush someone is walking out of the store with?" It makes zero sense. It's not my property, any paltry bonus I may get is in no way worth my safety and I'm not a cop so I don't have qualified immunity. The only guard that would tackle you at the exit is the kind of guard that has a propensity for violence and took the loss prevention job because the police and military already rejected them. Allowing your LP staff to use physical force is not going to solve retail theft.
  - _hilro 5y ago
    Eh,some people who work security/work in retail like to stand up for common decency in the neighbourhood and have a backbone so they confront the thief. > Allowing your LP staff to use physical force is not going to solve retail theft. It's going to massively reduce it.
    - xnyan 5y ago
      Terms like common decency and backbone are words used in place of payment to dupe/guilt people to work for the benefit of someone else without fair compensation. You don’t need to use emotional arguments to get someone to do something they are paid fairly to do. Theft is an economic issue. I shop in stores without armed guards everywhere because I don’t live in an area with an massive level of income disparity like San Francisco.
      - slowhand09 5y ago
        Terms like common decency and backbone are words used to describe how we should all be. People branding anything promoting social and personal responsibility for the public good - as negative, are typically part of the problem rather than the solution. Why didn't you go a tiny bit further and say "dog whistle"?
        xnyan 5y ago
        I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Fix economic problems is my position, leave subjectives like decent and should to philosophers.
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    > "why would I risk my life and health over a toothbrush someone is walking out of the store with?" Because it's your job, and because the outcome of not stopping it is the rotting of your community, as we see here. Why have that job if it's revealed it is actually less than security theater? I sense I come off a bit hostile, but "not doing anything" results in what we now see. And if your job isn't to stop theft, then what is it? Perhaps a job with physical dangers should get paid more and have better health benefits, but to say "not my job" removes pay from the discussion.
- illinx 5y ago
  Why aren't CVS, who have more downtown SF locations than Walgreens, facing similar pressures?
  - refurb 5y ago
    Why do you assume they aren’t? Last time I was in a CVS, I had to have someone unlock a display case to buy deodorant.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - aapl88889 5y ago
    I encourage you to Google "CVS San Francisco theft" and see how many results you find
  - kgin 5y ago
    https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/us/san-francisco-shoplifting-walgreens/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/us/san-francisco-shoplifting-... > Ben Dugan, CVS director of organized retail crime and corporate investigations, also provided internal data at the hearing showing similar issues concentrated in San Francisco. There are 155 CVS stores in the Bay Area, including 12 in San Francisco; yet those 12 stores make up 26% of all shoplifting incidents in the region, CVS said. > He called San Francisco "one of the epicenters of organized retail crime" and said the items are being stolen with the intent of selling them for re-profit.
zepto 5y ago
> Are police and the city really not pursuing charges against most of these thieves? They really aren’t.
- xhkkffbf 5y ago
  Yup. It's common ignore theft under a number around $950. Technically it's a misdemeanor but they just don't seem to go after the criminal unless some video goes viral. One friend witnessed a guy bring a handtruck into the pharmacy and cart out an entire display.
  - sequel_database 5y ago
    Joey "picked up a rack of timex watches and threw it over my shoulder like a body in Vietnam" Diaz
swearwolf 5y ago
I can't speak for San Francisco, but I can speak for Portland. There's a lot that's going on that feeds into this. I've been trying to construct a workable narrative for myself, to help explain holistically why the city I live in has fallen apart so much in the last year and a half. This is what I've learned so far: 1.) The police in Portland were barely interested in dealing with property crime before the massive uptick in 2020. They'd show up...eventually, but they certainly weren't going to show up in time to stop anyone and any investigation was minimal. 2.) The newly elected DA in Portland is a strong believer in restorative justice, and avoiding incarceration when possible. He is also a vocal critic of the police, which has earned him their ire. This has created a circular animosity that manifests in the police not bothering to do their jobs in documenting and investing crimes, because they don't' feel like the DA's office are going to do theirs by prosecuting them. 3.) Judges in Multnomah County, where Portland sits, tend towards light sentencing. 4.) During COVID, the court system effectively shut down for a while. This generated an enormous backlog. The net effect is that there are many people currently awaiting hearings for very serious offenses, who in ordinary times would be in jail, but aren't because of jail capacity issues. 5.) Multnomah County has underbuilt jails for years, and doesn't have much capacity in the ones they haven't closed yet. 6.) Due to COVID, the courts are very reluctant to remand anyone to custody except in the most violent cases. There are numerous reports of violent offenders being immediately released because there's no room in jail while maintaining the recommended COVID guidelines. 7.) Recently Oregon, through a ballot measure, decriminalized user amounts of pretty much all narcotics. The jury's still out on how that's playing out, but it's looking like we may have inadvertently invited a lot of transient drug users to come live here. 8.) There's a massive homeless population in Portland. Almost every neighborhood has one or more encampments. It's not uncommon to see things like stolen and stripped cars, bikes, and other property concentrated around them, because theft is the primary way that these folks have made money. 9.) There's been a massive uptick in meth use across the western United States, which is going under reported because of the opioid crisis. The meth in question is industrially made in Mexico, using P2P as the base. This particular formulation of meth has a very different effect on users than previous formulations (which were based on ephidrine). Ephidrine based meth tends to make people euphoric and sociable, while P2P based meth tends to make people paranoid and aggressive, and in higher doses it mimics the symptoms of schizophrenia. Sam Quinones' new book "The Least of Us" goes into fascinating detail about all this. 10.) Oregon has an awful mental health system, which is way overburdened. The net effect of this is that a lot of people with behavioral problems end up on the street, where they co-mingle with the rest of the homeless population. 11.) There's been an enormous uptick in shootings in Portland, owing to a gang war between the West Side 18th Street, the Young Come Ups, and a few others. There was an inciting incident earlier in the summer where a member of one gang killed members of another at a memorial service, and it's been an escalating series of gun battles ever since. This has seriously overtaxed the police, to the point that in some shootings, one office has been left to process the scene entirely alone because the rest had to go to another shooting. 11.) Police are quitting, for various reasons that range from mask mandates to anger and solidarity that the DA prosecuted one of their own for use of force during the 2020 riots. Portland already had a very low per-capita number of police to begin with. 12.) Until about June, there were two or three activist gatherings per week, and at least one of these usually turned into a small group of people either directly antagonizing the police at their headquarters, or marching around smashing windows and setting dumpster fires. This, too, kept the police very busy. 13.) The culture in Portland forgives a lot of anti-authority things. Theft is excused is "survival crimes". Vandalism is tolerated and sometimes praised, especially if it's enacted against larger corporate businesses. You'll get no pushback for saying "All cops are bastards" to a random stranger in public. 14.) There is an activist culture here that will fight City Hall tooth and nail on any attempt at remediating anything. Attempts to clean up homeless camps are met with protests, sometimes by armed activists. An entire city block was occupied by armed protestors for a month or so last December. So, in summary, burnt out/jaded cops, relatively soft on crime judicial system stretched to it's max, homeless crisis, meth crisis, fentanyl crisis, general culture of disrespect for authority. Not sure how much of this is true in San Francisco, but I think a lot of them are generally true across the larger West Coast cities.
RegnisGnaw 5y ago
> This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. I honestly think that the negative PR from that would be worse then closing the stores.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Why? Rich people don't want to shop during a burglary, and poor people who don't even have a credit card don't have influence.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> This seems like a failed opportunity for Walgreens to pilot some kind of "deposit" like gas pumps do. Walk into the Walgreens and run your card with a $75 deposit, or sign in with an ID, etc. Why is the failure Walgreens'? Forcing customers to show ID or provide a credit card would make for a horrible customer experience and inevitably lead to confrontations involving staff. Maybe if communities where shoplifting has basically been sanctioned lose enough stores, residents will force change.

m0llusk 5y ago

One specific detail that comes up is that Walgreens has specifically ordered its employees to not get involved. Some of the stores have dedicated security, but they tend to get overwhelmed and not all stores are covered all of the time. The breakdown in enforcement is part of this. Much of the problem is related to the rest of the cycle. That is, even if there are still RFID tags on the stolen items they still get sold in bulk at local street sales and such. There is some hope that enforcement on that end will pick up as the $950 limit is easier to hit and demonstrate and there has at least in SF been some rhetoric about giving sellers and fences some enforcement which might help. Another thing to keep in mind is that at this point many of those involved are more or less completely outside society. They don't have skills, jobs, housing, family, or traditional networks. That makes enforcement tricky since incarceration is nearly the only tool and that gives them free room and board as well as opportunities for networking and developing their criminal skills like lockpicking and gang organization.

gpapilion 5y ago
It’s also worth pointing out Walgreens, Apple, and other retailers usually do not press charges on the rare occasion when the groups are stopped or caught. This does not improve the situation.
- aerostable_slug 5y ago
  Target does. Every. Single. Time. Hell, they've got their own forensics lab to help make cases against theft rings that span jurisdictions [0]. They have a commitment from the top down to put as much pressure as possible on this type of organized crime. Back when Reddit had a shoplifting sub, users would advise others to just never steal from Target — mission accomplished, I think. 0: https://corporate.target.com/article/2012/02/an-unexpected-career-target-forensic-services-labo https://corporate.target.com/article/2012/02/an-unexpected-c...
legitster 5y ago
Even in situations where there is a dedicated security team, they are not allowed to actually restrain or stop people. > Another thing to keep in mind is that at this point many of those involved are more or less completely outside society. Actual research on shoplifting suggests that the vast, vast majority of shoplifters are working or middle class: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248967286_Who_actually_steals_A_study_of_covertly_observed_shoplifters https://www.researchgate.net/publication/248967286_Who_actua...

nodesocket 5y ago

It’s really not that complicated, there are no deterrents against bad behavior in San Francisco and Portland. No consequences, and desperate people will break the law. Either these cities step up and support their law enforcement and stop vilifying them or these problems are only going to get worse. I know if I owned a shop in San Francisco I would have a gun at it as a deterrent. I fled SF and California in 2018 in-part because of the crime, anti-police sentiment, and lawlessness.