8 ms·

Boeing says certain 787 parts improperly manufactured

102 points by nixass 5y ago

S_A_P 5y ago
Wasnt there an Al-Jazeera documentary about 787 manufacturing problems, some 5 years ago? Googled it- 7 years ago: https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2014/7/20/the-boeing-787-broken-dreams/ https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2014/7/20/t... There were line workers complaining of many manufacturing defects and bad practices that were being swept under the rug.
- rob74 5y ago
  Yes, but that was about the quality of the assembly of the plane, particularly with 787s coming from the Boeing plant in South Carolina (which was until recently one of two plants that assembled the 787 - now however it's the only one). This article is about unnamed parts (whatever they may be) coming from an unnamed supplier (whoever it may be), but not related to the actual quality of Boeing's work (except maybe the quality control of the parts of course).
  - droopyEyelids 5y ago
    The Al Jazerra doc covered the problems assembling the airframes _because the parts used to make the fuselage were defective_ They were cut by hand because the manufacturer never assembled the CNC machine.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      I'm reminded of the Chinese guy who paid two million yuan for a hit, and then the hit man kept half and outsourced it, and that guy kept half and outsourced it, down to five levels deep, and finally the guy at the very bottom faked the murder, got caught, and the whole chain got rolled up. That's basically Boeing. Somewhere is a hut and parts are being made on a dirt floor in a half-assed way - or at least the modern equivalent of that. This supports an enormous pyramid of managers, business process outsourcers, accountants, lobbyists, and executives. Meanwhile, real engineers are holding their head crying at what happened to their company.
      - loonster 5y ago
        I used to work for that company at the bottom. Naively I thought we were the only bottom feeder. The company would use up the tool budget on useless things, then ended up hand working everything.
1cvmask 5y ago
From the article: The company did not name the supplier, nor did it identify the part, although the Wall Street Journal earlier reported that the defect involved certain titanium parts that are weaker than they should be. - It would seem that we would need to know what kind of part this is if we want to continue flying and trusting Boeing. Is it a part in the kitchen of the plane or a more critical holding the jet engines. It would seem this might be a critical part as it is titanium.
- doikor 5y ago
  Even if it was some more critical part it could just mean that it has a lifetime of 10 years instead of 15 or 20. Or just needs to be checked more often so adding a bit to the maintenance costs until it is replaced. Worst case is that it is some really important part that is not designed to be changed during the lifetime of the plane making fixing it really hard (or impossible)
  - kova12 5y ago
    Or it could mean that a wing might fall off next time plane is under stress. We don't know, and since it's our life on the line, we do deserve to know
    - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
      If the damn FAA hasn't issued a AirWorthiness Directive, you'll be fine. 99.999999999999% of people have no idea what any of this info actually means or how to process it. COVID has proven this fact
      - kova12 5y ago
        based on FAA stellar record in that matters, I'd say we still better be informed
      - dahart 5y ago
        The FAA failed to issue an Air Worthiness directive until after both 737 Max crashes. We have to hope that’s fixed, but until there’s more evidence, the FAA’s failure to ground a plane doesn’t give me much comfort.
searine 5y ago
The 787 uses additively manufactured titanium parts. I think they are part of the bracket that holds the engine on the wing(?), Norsk describes them as "structural, load-bearing components". Could be those since that is where it would be most critical. Or not, this is just speculation. https://www.norsktitanium.com/media/press/norsk-titanium-to-deliver-the-worlds-first-faa-approved-3d-printed-structural-titanium-components-to-boeing https://www.norsktitanium.com/media/press/norsk-titanium-to-...
quacked 5y ago
There are two phenomenal pieces of writing that lend great insight to what's going on at Boeing (that is, if you believe the two authors): How Boeing Lost Its Bearings: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing... Out-Sourced Profits -- The Cornerstone Of Successful Subcontracting: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/69746/hart-smith-on-outsourcing.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6974... I've worked with Boeing spaceflight engineers, and several acquaintances of mine have worked for Boeing aviation. I have never seen or heard of any Boeing-branded organization putting out a single well-organized, quality piece of engineering or IT infrastructure since I entered the job market in 2017. From what I can tell, it's practically a state department at this point.
- N_A_T_E 5y ago
  Painful to read “When people say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm.”
  - xyzzy21 5y ago
    Indeed. The guy not understanding EITHER what an engineering firm actually is nor what a business is.
- twiddling 5y ago
  I would also plug Dominic Gates from the Seattle Times ( https://twitter.com/dominicgates https://twitter.com/dominicgates ) with his on the ground (ha) reporting on the Lazy B
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  Would breaking up Boeing alleviate the problem? If so, what would be the fracture lines (and conditions)?
  - fsckboy 5y ago
ortusdux 5y ago
I thoroughly enjoyed the YouTube channel Real Engineering's two part series on all the innovations that were packed into the 787. Part 1 is mostly about the body of the plane - https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA & part 2 is mostly about the powertrain - https://youtu.be/Sf6H8kSunRA https://youtu.be/Sf6H8kSunRA They discuss the dramatic increase in the need for titanium parts around 18 minutes into the first video. https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA?t=1090 https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA?t=1090 When aluminum and carbon are in direct contact, galvanic corrosion is an issue. The only way they could make a plane with carbon fiber wings, fuselage, and empennage, was to replace most metallic elements with titanium. The final 787 is 15% titanium by weight. Titanium is tough to work with, and I can see how problems would arise when you redesign what must be thousands of parts.
- app 5y ago
  Came here to say this. Very informative, if somewhat laudatory, videos.
- latchkey 5y ago
  Specialized used to make a bike out of coated carbon tubes glued into Aluminum lugs using the same manufacturing process that the aerospace industry used. The Allez. Beautiful bike, I had one, but it suffered from two problems: it was overly flexible and if you got a nick in the coating on the fiber or water got into the lugs, you'd get the GC issue. Of course, their marketing claimed they 'solved' the issue... https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/422428-specialized-allez-epic-2.html https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/422428-specialize...
  - justinator 5y ago
    Was there also a problem with the glue failing?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Cadex made a similar bike, I rode it for years and never had any issues and I'm also not aware of any issues with that model. I wonder what the differences in processes and/or materials were.
amelius 5y ago
So they found their scapegoat?
niffydroid 5y ago
Whats new? This has been going on for quite some time. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-united-tech-pratt-lawsuit-idUSKBN0GX2L120140902 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-united-tech-pratt-lawsuit...
drdeadringer 5y ago
I think I'm late to the party but at this point I'm thinking the name "Dreamliner" is a misnomer.
wahern 5y ago
> The defect was found as the planemaker grapples with other problems in its 787 that have caused it to cut production and halt deliveries since May. From Boeing management's long-term perspective, the upside to the current downturn is that it provides them an excuse to shift more production from their unionized Washington factory to their non-unionized South Carolina factory. (Anybody know if 787 production has now--or will be--moved entirely to South Carolina?) Notably, most 787 quality problems have been with their South Carolina factory, which has less expertise and less ability to push back against the unreasonable management demands that result in shortcuts and defects. Some customers were even stipulating Washington built planes. But of course Boeing management couldn't care less about their quality problems. Presumably their gamble is that with Washington out of the equation, the defect rates will silently become status quo and then people won't complain as much. It would be entirely unsurprising if this management culture bleeds through its suppliers, assuming it hasn't already. Major f'up? Terminate the contract to appease everybody, and sign a new contract with a virgin outfit. Wash, rinse, repeat.
- noahtallen 5y ago
  > Anybody know if 787 production has now--or will be--moved entirely to South Carolina? Yep, I believe it happened earlier this year: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/boeing-confirms-787-dreamliner-production-is-moving-from-everett-to-south-carolina-in-march/281-8462fd9d-81e3-46ed-a9b5-4a6c2f332030 https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/...
anaganisk 5y ago
So the MSFS2020 plane wasn’t huggy, but actually was replicating real world plane?

102 points by nixass 5y ago

Wasnt there an Al-Jazeera documentary about 787 manufacturing problems, some 5 years ago? Googled it- 7 years ago: https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2014/7/20/the-boeing-787-broken-dreams/ https://www.aljazeera.com/program/investigations/2014/7/20/t... There were line workers complaining of many manufacturing defects and bad practices that were being swept under the rug.

rob74 5y ago
Yes, but that was about the quality of the assembly of the plane, particularly with 787s coming from the Boeing plant in South Carolina (which was until recently one of two plants that assembled the 787 - now however it's the only one). This article is about unnamed parts (whatever they may be) coming from an unnamed supplier (whoever it may be), but not related to the actual quality of Boeing's work (except maybe the quality control of the parts of course).
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  The Al Jazerra doc covered the problems assembling the airframes _because the parts used to make the fuselage were defective_ They were cut by hand because the manufacturer never assembled the CNC machine.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    I'm reminded of the Chinese guy who paid two million yuan for a hit, and then the hit man kept half and outsourced it, and that guy kept half and outsourced it, down to five levels deep, and finally the guy at the very bottom faked the murder, got caught, and the whole chain got rolled up. That's basically Boeing. Somewhere is a hut and parts are being made on a dirt floor in a half-assed way - or at least the modern equivalent of that. This supports an enormous pyramid of managers, business process outsourcers, accountants, lobbyists, and executives. Meanwhile, real engineers are holding their head crying at what happened to their company.
    - loonster 5y ago
      I used to work for that company at the bottom. Naively I thought we were the only bottom feeder. The company would use up the tool budget on useless things, then ended up hand working everything.

1cvmask 5y ago

From the article: The company did not name the supplier, nor did it identify the part, although the Wall Street Journal earlier reported that the defect involved certain titanium parts that are weaker than they should be. - It would seem that we would need to know what kind of part this is if we want to continue flying and trusting Boeing. Is it a part in the kitchen of the plane or a more critical holding the jet engines. It would seem this might be a critical part as it is titanium.

doikor 5y ago
Even if it was some more critical part it could just mean that it has a lifetime of 10 years instead of 15 or 20. Or just needs to be checked more often so adding a bit to the maintenance costs until it is replaced. Worst case is that it is some really important part that is not designed to be changed during the lifetime of the plane making fixing it really hard (or impossible)
- kova12 5y ago
  Or it could mean that a wing might fall off next time plane is under stress. We don't know, and since it's our life on the line, we do deserve to know
  - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
    If the damn FAA hasn't issued a AirWorthiness Directive, you'll be fine. 99.999999999999% of people have no idea what any of this info actually means or how to process it. COVID has proven this fact
    - kova12 5y ago
      based on FAA stellar record in that matters, I'd say we still better be informed
    - dahart 5y ago
      The FAA failed to issue an Air Worthiness directive until after both 737 Max crashes. We have to hope that’s fixed, but until there’s more evidence, the FAA’s failure to ground a plane doesn’t give me much comfort.

searine 5y ago

The 787 uses additively manufactured titanium parts. I think they are part of the bracket that holds the engine on the wing(?), Norsk describes them as "structural, load-bearing components". Could be those since that is where it would be most critical. Or not, this is just speculation. https://www.norsktitanium.com/media/press/norsk-titanium-to-deliver-the-worlds-first-faa-approved-3d-printed-structural-titanium-components-to-boeing https://www.norsktitanium.com/media/press/norsk-titanium-to-...

quacked 5y ago

There are two phenomenal pieces of writing that lend great insight to what's going on at Boeing (that is, if you believe the two authors): How Boeing Lost Its Bearings: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing... Out-Sourced Profits -- The Cornerstone Of Successful Subcontracting: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/69746/hart-smith-on-outsourcing.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6974... I've worked with Boeing spaceflight engineers, and several acquaintances of mine have worked for Boeing aviation. I have never seen or heard of any Boeing-branded organization putting out a single well-organized, quality piece of engineering or IT infrastructure since I entered the job market in 2017. From what I can tell, it's practically a state department at this point.

N_A_T_E 5y ago
Painful to read “When people say I changed the culture of Boeing, that was the intent, so that it’s run like a business rather than a great engineering firm.”
- xyzzy21 5y ago
  Indeed. The guy not understanding EITHER what an engineering firm actually is nor what a business is.
twiddling 5y ago
I would also plug Dominic Gates from the Seattle Times ( https://twitter.com/dominicgates https://twitter.com/dominicgates ) with his on the ground (ha) reporting on the Lazy B
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
Would breaking up Boeing alleviate the problem? If so, what would be the fracture lines (and conditions)?
- fsckboy 5y ago

ortusdux 5y ago

I thoroughly enjoyed the YouTube channel Real Engineering's two part series on all the innovations that were packed into the 787. Part 1 is mostly about the body of the plane - https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA & part 2 is mostly about the powertrain - https://youtu.be/Sf6H8kSunRA https://youtu.be/Sf6H8kSunRA They discuss the dramatic increase in the need for titanium parts around 18 minutes into the first video. https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA?t=1090 https://youtu.be/lapFQl6RezA?t=1090 When aluminum and carbon are in direct contact, galvanic corrosion is an issue. The only way they could make a plane with carbon fiber wings, fuselage, and empennage, was to replace most metallic elements with titanium. The final 787 is 15% titanium by weight. Titanium is tough to work with, and I can see how problems would arise when you redesign what must be thousands of parts.

app 5y ago
Came here to say this. Very informative, if somewhat laudatory, videos.
latchkey 5y ago
Specialized used to make a bike out of coated carbon tubes glued into Aluminum lugs using the same manufacturing process that the aerospace industry used. The Allez. Beautiful bike, I had one, but it suffered from two problems: it was overly flexible and if you got a nick in the coating on the fiber or water got into the lugs, you'd get the GC issue. Of course, their marketing claimed they 'solved' the issue... https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/422428-specialized-allez-epic-2.html https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/422428-specialize...
- justinator 5y ago
  Was there also a problem with the glue failing?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Cadex made a similar bike, I rode it for years and never had any issues and I'm also not aware of any issues with that model. I wonder what the differences in processes and/or materials were.

amelius 5y ago

So they found their scapegoat?

niffydroid 5y ago

Whats new? This has been going on for quite some time. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-united-tech-pratt-lawsuit-idUSKBN0GX2L120140902 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-united-tech-pratt-lawsuit...

drdeadringer 5y ago

I think I'm late to the party but at this point I'm thinking the name "Dreamliner" is a misnomer.

wahern 5y ago

> The defect was found as the planemaker grapples with other problems in its 787 that have caused it to cut production and halt deliveries since May. From Boeing management's long-term perspective, the upside to the current downturn is that it provides them an excuse to shift more production from their unionized Washington factory to their non-unionized South Carolina factory. (Anybody know if 787 production has now--or will be--moved entirely to South Carolina?) Notably, most 787 quality problems have been with their South Carolina factory, which has less expertise and less ability to push back against the unreasonable management demands that result in shortcuts and defects. Some customers were even stipulating Washington built planes. But of course Boeing management couldn't care less about their quality problems. Presumably their gamble is that with Washington out of the equation, the defect rates will silently become status quo and then people won't complain as much. It would be entirely unsurprising if this management culture bleeds through its suppliers, assuming it hasn't already. Major f'up? Terminate the contract to appease everybody, and sign a new contract with a virgin outfit. Wash, rinse, repeat.

noahtallen 5y ago
> Anybody know if 787 production has now--or will be--moved entirely to South Carolina? Yep, I believe it happened earlier this year: https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/boeing-confirms-787-dreamliner-production-is-moving-from-everett-to-south-carolina-in-march/281-8462fd9d-81e3-46ed-a9b5-4a6c2f332030 https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/aerospace/boeing/...

anaganisk 5y ago

So the MSFS2020 plane wasn’t huggy, but actually was replicating real world plane?