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Solar + 4 hours of storage clocking in at $40/MWh in ideal conditions. Substitute for windpower and some worse conditions and nuclear energy still look awful fr

Solar + 4 hours of storage clocking in at $40/MWh in ideal conditions. Substitute for windpower and some worse conditions and nuclear energy still look awful from a cost perspective. https://www.energy-storage.news/developer-8minute-says-more-than-24gwh-of-batteries-included-in-its-us-solar-plus-storage-pipeline/ https://www.energy-storage.news/developer-8minute-says-more-...

criley2 5y ago
Something about wind and solar isn't working to meet the increasing demands in Germany https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-electricity-source/a-59168105 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec... From 2020 to 2021, Coal is up 8%, Wind is down 7%, Solar is down 1%. Non-renewable in total is up 8% and renewable is down 8%. If they can find a battery solution that actually works, then that would be amazing, but existing solutions clearly aren't cutting it. While it might cost more, nuclear power is extremely reliable and offers energy independence, a form of national security that is vital with Russian pipelines strongly influencing the geopolitics of the region. I hope better batteries can offer them the same, because it's sad watching coal expand dramatically.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  You should look at longer time periods instead of just looking at one year. Year to year variability could be big due to a variety of reasons.
  - criley2 5y ago
    When it comes to consistent power generation, Germans can't just wait until next year. Wind power has it's ups and downs, which is why you need a lot more of it than coal or nuclear to meet the same demand.
loeg 5y ago
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but does night time in Germany sometimes exceed four hours?
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  At $40/MWh, you just triple it down and still come out ahead. I doubt that article is correct.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Yeah, people really underestimate the scale of the storage problem for solar. Energy usage peaks around 6pm[1], while the amount of energy solar can produce is trending towards zero. Without significant storage capability (i.e. enough to supply ~a days electricity), solar energy has a pretty limited use case in a real-time electric grid. [1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915
- jhgb 5y ago
  Perhaps, but wind power also tends to peak at night.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Wind speeds near the ground peak in the early afternoon. Higher altitude winds peak at night, but you need quite a large turbine to catch those. Sometimes there's no wind for days at a time. https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/27/11/jcli-d-13-00286.1.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/27/11/jcli-d...
    - jhgb 5y ago
      Quoting from your link: "It is found that daily extreme wind speeds at 10 m are most likely in the early afternoon, whereas those at 200 m are most likely in between midnight and sunrise" Ground is irrelevant; there's a reason why wind turbines are being put on top of tall towers.
      - cperciva 5y ago
        200m tall towers?
Mikeb85 5y ago
The problem is storing enough renewable energy for baseline power for a whole country. Things that work at a small scale don't necessarily work at massive scale.
incrudible 5y ago
There is no storage solution. The required amount of batteries would be enormous, well in excess of production capacity. The only feasible solution to even out throths is (natural) gas plants. Neither coal nor nuclear are quickly adjustable in output, when combined with wind/solar they lead to peaks of overproduction. This is the situation in Germany.

criley2 5y ago

Something about wind and solar isn't working to meet the increasing demands in Germany https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-electricity-source/a-59168105 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec... From 2020 to 2021, Coal is up 8%, Wind is down 7%, Solar is down 1%. Non-renewable in total is up 8% and renewable is down 8%. If they can find a battery solution that actually works, then that would be amazing, but existing solutions clearly aren't cutting it. While it might cost more, nuclear power is extremely reliable and offers energy independence, a form of national security that is vital with Russian pipelines strongly influencing the geopolitics of the region. I hope better batteries can offer them the same, because it's sad watching coal expand dramatically.

cinntaile 5y ago
You should look at longer time periods instead of just looking at one year. Year to year variability could be big due to a variety of reasons.
- criley2 5y ago
  When it comes to consistent power generation, Germans can't just wait until next year. Wind power has it's ups and downs, which is why you need a lot more of it than coal or nuclear to meet the same demand.

loeg 5y ago

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but does night time in Germany sometimes exceed four hours?

marcosdumay 5y ago
At $40/MWh, you just triple it down and still come out ahead. I doubt that article is correct.
dahfizz 5y ago
Yeah, people really underestimate the scale of the storage problem for solar. Energy usage peaks around 6pm[1], while the amount of energy solar can produce is trending towards zero. Without significant storage capability (i.e. enough to supply ~a days electricity), solar energy has a pretty limited use case in a real-time electric grid. [1] https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=42915
jhgb 5y ago
Perhaps, but wind power also tends to peak at night.
- nradov 5y ago
  Wind speeds near the ground peak in the early afternoon. Higher altitude winds peak at night, but you need quite a large turbine to catch those. Sometimes there's no wind for days at a time. https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/27/11/jcli-d-13-00286.1.xml https://journals.ametsoc.org/view/journals/clim/27/11/jcli-d...
  - jhgb 5y ago
    Quoting from your link: "It is found that daily extreme wind speeds at 10 m are most likely in the early afternoon, whereas those at 200 m are most likely in between midnight and sunrise" Ground is irrelevant; there's a reason why wind turbines are being put on top of tall towers.
    - cperciva 5y ago
      200m tall towers?

Mikeb85 5y ago

The problem is storing enough renewable energy for baseline power for a whole country. Things that work at a small scale don't necessarily work at massive scale.

incrudible 5y ago

There is no storage solution. The required amount of batteries would be enormous, well in excess of production capacity. The only feasible solution to even out throths is (natural) gas plants. Neither coal nor nuclear are quickly adjustable in output, when combined with wind/solar they lead to peaks of overproduction. This is the situation in Germany.