10 ms·

Vast majority think life in SF Bay Area getting worse, want to leave, poll finds

80 points by bryan0 5y ago

readonthegoapp 5y ago
These polls and accompanying articles seem completely useless or worse Like, what is that percentage usually? Ok now compare that to other major cities. How do they compare? Ok now you might have something to talk about Like 'homelessness is so bad here zomg and getting so much worse' Uhhh compared to where? Inquiring minds want to know about these paradises of socialism
phendrenad2 5y ago
Wherever tech ends up, it'll definitely be somewhere with nice weather. LA maybe?
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Why nice weather? Tech used to be based in Boston before SF. I'm pretty sure it'll be based somewhere that has a population of accepting and curious people. People (and government) that are open to the latest startup idea, people that don't laugh at you but instead think it could be cool, and importantly enough people to hire at said startup to build a team that can actually succeed. Oh and a place without non-competes of course :) Thats why the old east coast cities lost tech - the startup scene didn't like the stodgy traditional mindset and the employee protections (like banning non-competes) were lacking, so starting a business was more lively in SF. Could be Florida if they court people a little more with employee protections.
- paul_f 5y ago
  Miami and Austin.
DevKoala 5y ago
I feel this way. However, living in the Bay Area carries a certain weight as a systems architect which allows me to charge more for consulting fees and ask for higher raises from my full time employer. Also, most of my professional network is here. I don't see myself leaving any time soon.
- rogerkirkness 5y ago
  This is funny, because based on engineering interview challenge quality, we found that everywhere else in North America has better comp arbitrage to talent. "Bay Area" means you pay more for the same quality that exists all over.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - reasonabl_human 5y ago
    Interested in learning more about this, if you can point me to the source data somewhere online. Unless you meant your particular company found this in which case I’m guessing you can’t go much further into it.
  - DevKoala 5y ago
    I don’t do technical interviews for roles anymore, and I would probably do poorly on the board. However, I have a lot of experience leading engineering teams at startups and I have designed and built the underlying systems for a handful of successful businesses; one of them just grew to over $100M/yr revenue in the past year. The individuals in my professional network value that, and that is how I keep myself employed. I agree with you on being able to find the same quality of talent outside of the Bay Area. When I hire, I don’t even restrict myself to the same timezone. Some of the best people I have worked with live in Europe.
- testesttest 5y ago
  Much of my professional network moved during covid. I keep an address in the bay area to keep up appearances with clients. I fly into town when nessary. Life is cheaper and better.
  - DevKoala 5y ago
    Yeah I have been thinking of doing this. I was thinking of going to Nevada or another state without capital gains to finally start cashing out.
kixiQu 5y ago
I'd love to see this sentiment graphed against the actual numbers of people leaving the Bay Area.
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  Sadly, I was at the Bryant St. U-Haul a month ago and the lot worker was spinning around with his hands up yelling “no trucks, everyone is leaving!” He was being facetious. The lot was completely packed. He was annoyed he had to move a panel truck so I could get a truck (always the last row) out.
- blagie 5y ago
  I suspect not much correlation (or if there is, it's spurious). A lot of these things work with weird time lags, tipping points, and inversions. The dynamics are... complex.
- refurb 5y ago
  It's always been a gold rush town. Come to SF to make your fortune and then leave when it all becomes too much. Plenty of people leaving but plenty of people with gold fever willing to take their place.
  - snypher 5y ago
    It's strange to me to see variations of "I moved there, lived there for decades, made my millions, _now_ it's bad and I'm leaving!". A bit like complaining about mosquitos in the jungle after you've mined all the gold.
dmitrygr 5y ago
I've been living & working here for 13 years. Moving out in December. Had enough. Between schools considering cancelling advanced math[1] while mandating ethnic studies[2] (guess which one is more marketable, geniuses?); schoolboards being more worried about school names (while doing no research) [3] than curricula; housing costing an arm, a leg, and a thigh (I do own my home, but it is not big enough for a family, and I have no chances to ever afford one here that is); insane & rising taxes [4][5], especially now with SALT deduction limits; and police not investigating car break ins [6] "because the homeless have it hard enough," I am done with this place. So long and good luck! [1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-20/california-controversial-math-overhaul-focuses-on-equity https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-20/californ... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/576071-california-becomes-first-state-to-mandate-high-school-ethnic-studies https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/576071-california-b... [3] https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-to-rename-44-schools-washington-15901689.php https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-to-re... [4] https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2021/05/01/california-proposes-168-tax-rate--wealth-taxagain-time-to-move/?sh=5b331e994f06 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2021/05/01/californi... [5] https://www.cbs8.com/article/traffic/gas-prices/californias-gas-tax-jump-july-1-2021/509-86620b17-378c-4e57-9e22-25eca17230b8 https://www.cbs8.com/article/traffic/gas-prices/californias-... [6] https://twitter.com/sfcarbreakins https://twitter.com/sfcarbreakins
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > Between schools considering cancelling advanced math[1] while mandating ethnic studies[2] (guess which one is more marketable, geniuses?) The math thing sounds like a bad idea but high school's job isn't to make you "marketable". Also you're implying that it's a tradeoff when it isn't. The suggested change would not affect how much math a student would take. Ethnic studies sounds like a valuable thing to add to baseline education. And if their history curriculum is anywhere near as repetitive as the one I went through, it could easily replace one of those courses without issue.
refurb 5y ago
I don't have a crystal ball, but there is nothing written in stone that says the Bay Area will retain its desirability or economic weight. I think of New Jersey which not that long ago used to have an amazingly robust economy - plenty of manufacturing, high tech (most pharmaceutical companies were HQ there). Now NJ is known for its bloated, inefficient government, crazy high taxes (including property taxes) and isn't really much of a desirable destination anymore. Not saying that will happen to the Bay Area, but it's not impossible either. The more dysfunctional the government becomes and quality of life suffers, the less people will be willing to accept them just for a chance at a high salary and Google on their resume. Especially when other offices open up.
- octopaulus 5y ago
  Good point
- footlose_3815 5y ago
  having lived at both, the bay is much much much nicer
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
To those who are thinking about it, I say: just do it like Nike. I left to live abroad and it was the best decision of my life. Interestingly, leaving made me appreciate certain things about the Bay Area more, just not enough to move back. The good thing is that if you leave and don't find you're happier wherever you go, you can always go back.
- deadmutex 5y ago
  > leaving made me appreciate certain things about the Bay Area more. What did you miss? The weather?
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    Yes the weather is one (I've spent most of my time since in really humid places). The hiking. The proximity to both mountains and sea. Restaurants and bars I had gone to for years. And of course friends. But the upside is that coming back to visit is really great. I get to enjoy the things I miss and leave before all the things I hated come to the fore.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- jameshush 5y ago
  Agree. I left California for Taiwan on Christmas (time flies!) and have zero regrets. I’ve doubled my life style and halved my costs. If you’re even remotely thinking about moving abroad remember: you’ll never have MORE time and LESS responsiblity than _right now_.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    I'm in Taiwan too :) Cheers!
  - throwaway675309 5y ago
    That's great. Taiwan hadn't closed its borders due to COVID by then? I lived in the Taipei area for three years and it was one of the best times of my life, looking to return but the visa situation has been so dicey lately...
joelbondurant 5y ago
[dead]
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Vast majority think life in SF Bay Area getting worse, want to leave, poll finds Headline is dishonest clickbait. 56%—which is not a “vast majority”— are “considering leaving in the next 5 years”,
- Tarsul 5y ago
  the headline is garbled. A vast majority does think it's getting worse (76%), but only 56% considers leaving within 5 years.
- xyzzy21 5y ago
  As someone who was raised in the Bay Area and had 3 decades of tech career in SV, and left forever in 2016, I'm still surprised at how thick those remaining are to not see the reality. I assume they don't get out much so they've never seen the contrast with reality to see how bad it is! 56% is merely those who have short term plans to leave. With up to 77% not liking things, they are on the edge of deciding to leave. It only takes a nudge! It's what pushed me and I still have family and >30 years of inertia keeping me there - I reached that point and have never looked back. I was in the Bay Area a few weeks ago and I am SO GLAD I don't live there anymore! What a shit hole it is! It's far worse than 2016.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > 56% is merely those who have short term plans to leave No, plans to leave are a much stronger claim that what the poll asks (the article suggests that it is the weakest of the questions polls typically ask of this issue, “considering leaving in the next five years”, but the poll [0] actually asked the second weakest form, “likely to leave in the next five years”, and 56% is the sum of “somewhat agree” and “strongly agree”.) > With up to 77% not liking things, they are on the edge of deciding to leave None of the reported numbers in the article are of “not liking things”, and the figure that is closest “not liking things” that is reported (“worse than five years ago”) is 71%, not 77%. 77% is what the article says is the percentage of those who agreed (at least somewhat) with the likely to move question that cited housing costs as a major reason (major reasons were not exclusive.) The people “on the edge” are the 25% who only ”somewhat agree” that they are likely leave, already counted as part of the 56%. [0] https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-report.pdf https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-rep...
throwaway81523 5y ago
It's true that life in the bay area is getting worse, but afaict it is getting worse everywhere. So wanting to leave sounds like a grass is greener effect.
- kgin 5y ago
  A lot of mid-size cities are getting notably great these days.
- tharne 5y ago
  It's getting better in a lot of smaller cities. In the 80's and 90's, that were a lot of things you could only get in the biggest metros. Access to things like niche books, the latest fashions, great restaurants, etc. could only be found in larger cities. Growing prosperity and the ability to get practically anything delivered has changed that. This means you can now live in a smaller town or city and get practically all of the material benefits of living somewhere like NYC or SF.
- theprestigev 5y ago
  Sarjapur avenue has true connectivity to high business zones today's the city like Whitefield, Koramangala, electronic city, Bannerghatta, and Marathalli. the approaching Metro Rail phase will in addition boost up the connectivity ultra-modern Sarjapur road. https://www.prestigecity.gen.in/ https://www.prestigecity.gen.in/ https://www.reddit.com/user/theprestigecitys/comments/puge3b/the_prestige_city_investing_in_prestige_group/ https://www.reddit.com/user/theprestigecitys/comments/puge3b... http://textadventures.co.uk/forum/general/topic/hjoyetfavkmruaxmzrwvqw/the-prestige-city-i-trends-across-sarjapur-main-road http://textadventures.co.uk/forum/general/topic/hjoyetfavkmr... http://rugaf.com/finance/business/investment/real-estate/prestige-city-i-real-estate-trends-sarjapur-road http://rugaf.com/finance/business/investment/real-estate/pre...
dragonwriter 5y ago
This reporting is...pretty poor. The actual poll report is here: https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-report.pdf https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-rep...

80 points by bryan0 5y ago

These polls and accompanying articles seem completely useless or worse Like, what is that percentage usually? Ok now compare that to other major cities. How do they compare? Ok now you might have something to talk about Like 'homelessness is so bad here zomg and getting so much worse' Uhhh compared to where? Inquiring minds want to know about these paradises of socialism

phendrenad2 5y ago

Wherever tech ends up, it'll definitely be somewhere with nice weather. LA maybe?

vineyardmike 5y ago
Why nice weather? Tech used to be based in Boston before SF. I'm pretty sure it'll be based somewhere that has a population of accepting and curious people. People (and government) that are open to the latest startup idea, people that don't laugh at you but instead think it could be cool, and importantly enough people to hire at said startup to build a team that can actually succeed. Oh and a place without non-competes of course :) Thats why the old east coast cities lost tech - the startup scene didn't like the stodgy traditional mindset and the employee protections (like banning non-competes) were lacking, so starting a business was more lively in SF. Could be Florida if they court people a little more with employee protections.
paul_f 5y ago
Miami and Austin.

DevKoala 5y ago

I feel this way. However, living in the Bay Area carries a certain weight as a systems architect which allows me to charge more for consulting fees and ask for higher raises from my full time employer. Also, most of my professional network is here. I don't see myself leaving any time soon.

rogerkirkness 5y ago
This is funny, because based on engineering interview challenge quality, we found that everywhere else in North America has better comp arbitrage to talent. "Bay Area" means you pay more for the same quality that exists all over.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- reasonabl_human 5y ago
  Interested in learning more about this, if you can point me to the source data somewhere online. Unless you meant your particular company found this in which case I’m guessing you can’t go much further into it.
- DevKoala 5y ago
  I don’t do technical interviews for roles anymore, and I would probably do poorly on the board. However, I have a lot of experience leading engineering teams at startups and I have designed and built the underlying systems for a handful of successful businesses; one of them just grew to over $100M/yr revenue in the past year. The individuals in my professional network value that, and that is how I keep myself employed. I agree with you on being able to find the same quality of talent outside of the Bay Area. When I hire, I don’t even restrict myself to the same timezone. Some of the best people I have worked with live in Europe.
testesttest 5y ago
Much of my professional network moved during covid. I keep an address in the bay area to keep up appearances with clients. I fly into town when nessary. Life is cheaper and better.
- DevKoala 5y ago
  Yeah I have been thinking of doing this. I was thinking of going to Nevada or another state without capital gains to finally start cashing out.

kixiQu 5y ago

I'd love to see this sentiment graphed against the actual numbers of people leaving the Bay Area.

hindsightbias 5y ago
Sadly, I was at the Bryant St. U-Haul a month ago and the lot worker was spinning around with his hands up yelling “no trucks, everyone is leaving!” He was being facetious. The lot was completely packed. He was annoyed he had to move a panel truck so I could get a truck (always the last row) out.
blagie 5y ago
I suspect not much correlation (or if there is, it's spurious). A lot of these things work with weird time lags, tipping points, and inversions. The dynamics are... complex.
refurb 5y ago
It's always been a gold rush town. Come to SF to make your fortune and then leave when it all becomes too much. Plenty of people leaving but plenty of people with gold fever willing to take their place.
- snypher 5y ago
  It's strange to me to see variations of "I moved there, lived there for decades, made my millions, _now_ it's bad and I'm leaving!". A bit like complaining about mosquitos in the jungle after you've mined all the gold.

dmitrygr 5y ago

I've been living & working here for 13 years. Moving out in December. Had enough. Between schools considering cancelling advanced math[1] while mandating ethnic studies[2] (guess which one is more marketable, geniuses?); schoolboards being more worried about school names (while doing no research) [3] than curricula; housing costing an arm, a leg, and a thigh (I do own my home, but it is not big enough for a family, and I have no chances to ever afford one here that is); insane & rising taxes [4][5], especially now with SALT deduction limits; and police not investigating car break ins [6] "because the homeless have it hard enough," I am done with this place. So long and good luck! [1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-20/california-controversial-math-overhaul-focuses-on-equity https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-20/californ... [2] https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/576071-california-becomes-first-state-to-mandate-high-school-ethnic-studies https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/576071-california-b... [3] https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-to-rename-44-schools-washington-15901689.php https://www.sfgate.com/education/article/San-Francisco-to-re... [4] https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2021/05/01/california-proposes-168-tax-rate--wealth-taxagain-time-to-move/?sh=5b331e994f06 https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2021/05/01/californi... [5] https://www.cbs8.com/article/traffic/gas-prices/californias-gas-tax-jump-july-1-2021/509-86620b17-378c-4e57-9e22-25eca17230b8 https://www.cbs8.com/article/traffic/gas-prices/californias-... [6] https://twitter.com/sfcarbreakins https://twitter.com/sfcarbreakins

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 5y ago
> Between schools considering cancelling advanced math[1] while mandating ethnic studies[2] (guess which one is more marketable, geniuses?) The math thing sounds like a bad idea but high school's job isn't to make you "marketable". Also you're implying that it's a tradeoff when it isn't. The suggested change would not affect how much math a student would take. Ethnic studies sounds like a valuable thing to add to baseline education. And if their history curriculum is anywhere near as repetitive as the one I went through, it could easily replace one of those courses without issue.

refurb 5y ago

I don't have a crystal ball, but there is nothing written in stone that says the Bay Area will retain its desirability or economic weight. I think of New Jersey which not that long ago used to have an amazingly robust economy - plenty of manufacturing, high tech (most pharmaceutical companies were HQ there). Now NJ is known for its bloated, inefficient government, crazy high taxes (including property taxes) and isn't really much of a desirable destination anymore. Not saying that will happen to the Bay Area, but it's not impossible either. The more dysfunctional the government becomes and quality of life suffers, the less people will be willing to accept them just for a chance at a high salary and Google on their resume. Especially when other offices open up.

octopaulus 5y ago
Good point
footlose_3815 5y ago
having lived at both, the bay is much much much nicer

LurkingPenguin 5y ago

To those who are thinking about it, I say: just do it like Nike. I left to live abroad and it was the best decision of my life. Interestingly, leaving made me appreciate certain things about the Bay Area more, just not enough to move back. The good thing is that if you leave and don't find you're happier wherever you go, you can always go back.

deadmutex 5y ago
> leaving made me appreciate certain things about the Bay Area more. What did you miss? The weather?
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  Yes the weather is one (I've spent most of my time since in really humid places). The hiking. The proximity to both mountains and sea. Restaurants and bars I had gone to for years. And of course friends. But the upside is that coming back to visit is really great. I get to enjoy the things I miss and leave before all the things I hated come to the fore.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
jameshush 5y ago
Agree. I left California for Taiwan on Christmas (time flies!) and have zero regrets. I’ve doubled my life style and halved my costs. If you’re even remotely thinking about moving abroad remember: you’ll never have MORE time and LESS responsiblity than _right now_.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  I'm in Taiwan too :) Cheers!
- throwaway675309 5y ago
  That's great. Taiwan hadn't closed its borders due to COVID by then? I lived in the Taipei area for three years and it was one of the best times of my life, looking to return but the visa situation has been so dicey lately...

joelbondurant 5y ago

[dead]

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Vast majority think life in SF Bay Area getting worse, want to leave, poll finds Headline is dishonest clickbait. 56%—which is not a “vast majority”— are “considering leaving in the next 5 years”,

Tarsul 5y ago
the headline is garbled. A vast majority does think it's getting worse (76%), but only 56% considers leaving within 5 years.
xyzzy21 5y ago
As someone who was raised in the Bay Area and had 3 decades of tech career in SV, and left forever in 2016, I'm still surprised at how thick those remaining are to not see the reality. I assume they don't get out much so they've never seen the contrast with reality to see how bad it is! 56% is merely those who have short term plans to leave. With up to 77% not liking things, they are on the edge of deciding to leave. It only takes a nudge! It's what pushed me and I still have family and >30 years of inertia keeping me there - I reached that point and have never looked back. I was in the Bay Area a few weeks ago and I am SO GLAD I don't live there anymore! What a shit hole it is! It's far worse than 2016.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > 56% is merely those who have short term plans to leave No, plans to leave are a much stronger claim that what the poll asks (the article suggests that it is the weakest of the questions polls typically ask of this issue, “considering leaving in the next five years”, but the poll [0] actually asked the second weakest form, “likely to leave in the next five years”, and 56% is the sum of “somewhat agree” and “strongly agree”.) > With up to 77% not liking things, they are on the edge of deciding to leave None of the reported numbers in the article are of “not liking things”, and the figure that is closest “not liking things” that is reported (“worse than five years ago”) is 71%, not 77%. 77% is what the article says is the percentage of those who agreed (at least somewhat) with the likely to move question that cited housing costs as a major reason (major reasons were not exclusive.) The people “on the edge” are the 25% who only ”somewhat agree” that they are likely leave, already counted as part of the 56%. [0] https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-report.pdf https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-rep...

throwaway81523 5y ago

It's true that life in the bay area is getting worse, but afaict it is getting worse everywhere. So wanting to leave sounds like a grass is greener effect.

kgin 5y ago
A lot of mid-size cities are getting notably great these days.
tharne 5y ago
It's getting better in a lot of smaller cities. In the 80's and 90's, that were a lot of things you could only get in the biggest metros. Access to things like niche books, the latest fashions, great restaurants, etc. could only be found in larger cities. Growing prosperity and the ability to get practically anything delivered has changed that. This means you can now live in a smaller town or city and get practically all of the material benefits of living somewhere like NYC or SF.
theprestigev 5y ago
Sarjapur avenue has true connectivity to high business zones today's the city like Whitefield, Koramangala, electronic city, Bannerghatta, and Marathalli. the approaching Metro Rail phase will in addition boost up the connectivity ultra-modern Sarjapur road. https://www.prestigecity.gen.in/ https://www.prestigecity.gen.in/ https://www.reddit.com/user/theprestigecitys/comments/puge3b/the_prestige_city_investing_in_prestige_group/ https://www.reddit.com/user/theprestigecitys/comments/puge3b... http://textadventures.co.uk/forum/general/topic/hjoyetfavkmruaxmzrwvqw/the-prestige-city-i-trends-across-sarjapur-main-road http://textadventures.co.uk/forum/general/topic/hjoyetfavkmr... http://rugaf.com/finance/business/investment/real-estate/prestige-city-i-real-estate-trends-sarjapur-road http://rugaf.com/finance/business/investment/real-estate/pre...

dragonwriter 5y ago

This reporting is...pretty poor. The actual poll report is here: https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-report.pdf https://jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/sv-poll-2021-rep...