5 ms·

This matches a lot of my own experience in trying to convince people to take reasonable precautions and get vaccinated. And I was one of the first in line for

by Natsu 5y ago

This matches a lot of my own experience in trying to convince people to take reasonable precautions and get vaccinated. And I was one of the first in line for my age group in my state. You have to do things to build trust first, and you have to be willing to admit that some of the measures taken are farcical and have no basis in science. People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to someone who hates them. The answer to masks being uncomfortable is to have a reasonable discussion about when masks are really necessary and which masks are good (N95), meh (surgical), or useless (cloth) and help people find more comfortable masks, take more breaks, etc. Not the Reddit way of putting up videos on the front page of their 109 year old grandma wearing a cloth mask over her oxygen mask for 5 seconds and mocking anyone who grumbles about how wearing a mask for an entire 12-hour factory shift is uncomfortable is a weak loser... missing the fact that they grumble because they're actually wearing a mask. If we focused more on helping people comply with rules and explaining things calmly and rationally and being clear about what we do and don't know and took much softer approaches, this wouldn't be so bad. There are still people willing to listen out there, though. But not a lot of people are interested in actually talking.

wolverine876 5y ago
> People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to someone who hates them. The victim argument is standard rhetoric, but they can choose to do what they want. For one thing, I haven't seen much hate at all. Could you give examples of it on a significant scale? Some leaders expressing hate? Mostly, I see resignation.
- throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/
  - autoexec 5y ago
    Interestingly, that subreddit has convinced some people to get vaccinated. Otherwise it's basically https://old.reddit.com/r/leopardsatemyface https://old.reddit.com/r/leopardsatemyface (covid edition) with a lot of venting frustration at folks who willfully spread the virus and the misinformation that keeps it spreading.
    - Natsu 5y ago
      The success cases I've seen were people talking to their family members, which is a reasonable approach. The subreddit itself with some of the hateful "these people deserve to die" kind of comments is actively harmful.
      - autoexec 5y ago
        Plenty changed their mind due to seeing the subreddit. You can find a bunch by searching it for "IPA" and the twitter account https://twitter.com/YassIPAqueen https://twitter.com/YassIPAqueen shares a bunch as well. I don't think the hateful comments are the reason people are changing their minds though. I think it's just seeing example after example of people who think like they do facing the consequences of their actions which really drives home the point. On the plus side, I think some of the outrage over the tone has gotten people to check the place out when they might not have otherwise. I wouldn't recommend the tactic for general public outreach but it does seem to work for a certain segment of the population and we're at the point now where people are trying everything they can think of. I thought the "funeral home" ad was an inspired idea https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/covid-vaccine-billboard-funeral-home-ad-agency-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/covid-vaccine-billboar...
        Natsu 5y ago
        There's a point to sharing how Covid has ruined people's lives, yes. It's the sneering and hate which causes problems. EDIT: I feel I should clarify that I'm not saying everything on the sub is bad, just the sneering part of it is not good. Sharing stories of how Covid has hurt people is fine and should be done. Cheering for people to die? That's just ghoulish. Yes, I know they're not all doing that, but I've seen more than a few such posts on the front page of Reddit. I don't bother reading that subreddit, though. I don't need other people's stories of how Covid has hurt friends of mine, I have my own.
  - nuerow 5y ago
    If anything, the Herman Cain Award is a place to vent frustration about the wave of reckless and irresponsible behavior perpetrated by a largely uninformed/disinformed segment of the population which happens to also be highly vocal and even militant regarding their personal ill-informed beliefs. The Herman Cain Award focuses mainly on reporting cases of individuals who are eggregiously contrarian and even hostile in their self-righteous militance opposing basic health and safety measures who end up falling victims of their own actions. If anything, the subreddit documents causes and effects, and showcases the expected risks and consequences of this sort of attitude.
    - viridian 5y ago
      If you would like, I can pull upvoted comments from the subreddit where people are bathing in the catharsis of their dead political enemies.
      - nuerow 5y ago
        > (...) where people are bathing in the catharsis of their dead political enemies. Taking a vaccine is not a political issue, except to a radical bunch of anti-intellectual militants who for some reason still hold a few cognitive dissonances tied to the last election round. To put things in perspective, there are countries which already are in the high 90% of total vaccination rounds, have a residual incidence rate, and have already went back to normal, simply due to the fact that they didn't had to deal with conspiracy theorists that adopted denial as a election strategy.
    - ameminator 5y ago
      I don't see the Herman Cain Award subreddit as a "place to vent frustration". I see it as an orgy of shadenfreud and a place to mock the dead, no matter how people try to spin it.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      That is a lot of rationalization you had to go through for that judgement. I think it is a ridiculous excuse.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    What political leaders are posting there? Public health leaders? Even medical personnel? Because those people should probably be fired and replaced if they are publicly associated with it.
clairity 5y ago
'just follow the rules'... that's exactly how we get the blind unreasonableness we're seeing everywhere. you need to examine your assumption that masks are doing anything at all in most common situations, and then consider what's actually reasonable vs. what you've rationalized yourself into. humility is missing in your thrust to convince others of your correctness.
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  Unless I'm a qualified medical researcher, how exactly am I supposed to "examine my assumption?"
  - clairity 5y ago
    exactly how you form opinions everyday without having deep knowledge of a given domain. perhaps also read up on the appeal to authority fallacy[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
    - CamperBob2 5y ago
      Maybe you need to do some reading. Appeal to authority is a fallacy only when the appeal is to an unrelated authority. If I rely on public health authorities in determining how to deal with the pandemic, I'm in the clear, logically speaking.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        If you rely on reliable public health authorities for pandemic-related advice, you're in the clear, logically speaking. If you rely on unreliable public health authorities, you might feel OK about your choice, but you're not in the clear, logically.
        swader999 5y ago
        How did you get informed enough to decide which public health authorities were the right ones to trust?
mike00632 5y ago
You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help. I suspect that depends on what someone means by the word "help." N-95 masks have filters that (IIUC) are fine enough to block most SARS-Cov2 containing droplets from being inhaled. Other masks do not have such filters. However, that's not the rationale for encouraging widespread masking. Since many COVID infections are asymptomatic and transmission is certainly possible for those who are pre-symptomatic, the rationale is that non-N95 masks don't protect the wearer, but rather those around the wearer, as they trap some (more or less, depending on the materials in such a mask) SARS-Cov2 containing droplets, making an infected person less likely to infect others. So, if by "help" someone means "this will help keep me from being infected by others," then that argument is correct. However, if by "help" someone means "this will help keep me from infecting others, and with widespread use of masking, help others from infecting me" then that argument is specious.
  - mike00632 5y ago
    > that argument is specious You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help.
    - nobody9999 5y ago
      Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh? I suggest you go back and re-read what I actually wrote. Because you apparently weren't able to retain the stuff from the beginning and middle of my comment by the time you got to the end, or just read the last sentence, I'm not so sure you'll be able to figure it out. As such, I'll explain. And I'll use small words so you'll be sure to understand. If you're a selfish piece of shit and only care about yourself, then only N95 masks are useful. However, if you're a normal, decent human being, you understand that non-N95 masks help to keep you from infecting others. What's more, if enough of us do so, non-N95 masks can absolutely help. I also want to take this opportunity to tell you to fuck off. Have a nice day!
lostapathy 5y ago
> People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. Is this actually true in the today's world of social media and 24x7 news cycle? I honestly can't think of anywhere (of any popularity) that still engages in nuanced discussion. Probably because people don't tune in.

by Natsu 5y ago

wolverine876 5y ago

> People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to someone who hates them. The victim argument is standard rhetoric, but they can choose to do what they want. For one thing, I haven't seen much hate at all. Could you give examples of it on a significant scale? Some leaders expressing hate? Mostly, I see resignation.

throw_nbvc1234 5y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/
- autoexec 5y ago
  Interestingly, that subreddit has convinced some people to get vaccinated. Otherwise it's basically https://old.reddit.com/r/leopardsatemyface https://old.reddit.com/r/leopardsatemyface (covid edition) with a lot of venting frustration at folks who willfully spread the virus and the misinformation that keeps it spreading.
  - Natsu 5y ago
    The success cases I've seen were people talking to their family members, which is a reasonable approach. The subreddit itself with some of the hateful "these people deserve to die" kind of comments is actively harmful.
    - autoexec 5y ago
      Plenty changed their mind due to seeing the subreddit. You can find a bunch by searching it for "IPA" and the twitter account https://twitter.com/YassIPAqueen https://twitter.com/YassIPAqueen shares a bunch as well. I don't think the hateful comments are the reason people are changing their minds though. I think it's just seeing example after example of people who think like they do facing the consequences of their actions which really drives home the point. On the plus side, I think some of the outrage over the tone has gotten people to check the place out when they might not have otherwise. I wouldn't recommend the tactic for general public outreach but it does seem to work for a certain segment of the population and we're at the point now where people are trying everything they can think of. I thought the "funeral home" ad was an inspired idea https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/covid-vaccine-billboard-funeral-home-ad-agency-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/covid-vaccine-billboar...
      - Natsu 5y ago
        There's a point to sharing how Covid has ruined people's lives, yes. It's the sneering and hate which causes problems. EDIT: I feel I should clarify that I'm not saying everything on the sub is bad, just the sneering part of it is not good. Sharing stories of how Covid has hurt people is fine and should be done. Cheering for people to die? That's just ghoulish. Yes, I know they're not all doing that, but I've seen more than a few such posts on the front page of Reddit. I don't bother reading that subreddit, though. I don't need other people's stories of how Covid has hurt friends of mine, I have my own.
- nuerow 5y ago
  If anything, the Herman Cain Award is a place to vent frustration about the wave of reckless and irresponsible behavior perpetrated by a largely uninformed/disinformed segment of the population which happens to also be highly vocal and even militant regarding their personal ill-informed beliefs. The Herman Cain Award focuses mainly on reporting cases of individuals who are eggregiously contrarian and even hostile in their self-righteous militance opposing basic health and safety measures who end up falling victims of their own actions. If anything, the subreddit documents causes and effects, and showcases the expected risks and consequences of this sort of attitude.
  - viridian 5y ago
    If you would like, I can pull upvoted comments from the subreddit where people are bathing in the catharsis of their dead political enemies.
    - nuerow 5y ago
      > (...) where people are bathing in the catharsis of their dead political enemies. Taking a vaccine is not a political issue, except to a radical bunch of anti-intellectual militants who for some reason still hold a few cognitive dissonances tied to the last election round. To put things in perspective, there are countries which already are in the high 90% of total vaccination rounds, have a residual incidence rate, and have already went back to normal, simply due to the fact that they didn't had to deal with conspiracy theorists that adopted denial as a election strategy.
  - ameminator 5y ago
    I don't see the Herman Cain Award subreddit as a "place to vent frustration". I see it as an orgy of shadenfreud and a place to mock the dead, no matter how people try to spin it.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    That is a lot of rationalization you had to go through for that judgement. I think it is a ridiculous excuse.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  What political leaders are posting there? Public health leaders? Even medical personnel? Because those people should probably be fired and replaced if they are publicly associated with it.

clairity 5y ago

'just follow the rules'... that's exactly how we get the blind unreasonableness we're seeing everywhere. you need to examine your assumption that masks are doing anything at all in most common situations, and then consider what's actually reasonable vs. what you've rationalized yourself into. humility is missing in your thrust to convince others of your correctness.

CamperBob2 5y ago
Unless I'm a qualified medical researcher, how exactly am I supposed to "examine my assumption?"
- clairity 5y ago
  exactly how you form opinions everyday without having deep knowledge of a given domain. perhaps also read up on the appeal to authority fallacy[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    Maybe you need to do some reading. Appeal to authority is a fallacy only when the appeal is to an unrelated authority. If I rely on public health authorities in determining how to deal with the pandemic, I'm in the clear, logically speaking.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      If you rely on reliable public health authorities for pandemic-related advice, you're in the clear, logically speaking. If you rely on unreliable public health authorities, you might feel OK about your choice, but you're not in the clear, logically.
      - swader999 5y ago
        How did you get informed enough to decide which public health authorities were the right ones to trust?

mike00632 5y ago

You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help.

nobody9999 5y ago
>You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help. I suspect that depends on what someone means by the word "help." N-95 masks have filters that (IIUC) are fine enough to block most SARS-Cov2 containing droplets from being inhaled. Other masks do not have such filters. However, that's not the rationale for encouraging widespread masking. Since many COVID infections are asymptomatic and transmission is certainly possible for those who are pre-symptomatic, the rationale is that non-N95 masks don't protect the wearer, but rather those around the wearer, as they trap some (more or less, depending on the materials in such a mask) SARS-Cov2 containing droplets, making an infected person less likely to infect others. So, if by "help" someone means "this will help keep me from being infected by others," then that argument is correct. However, if by "help" someone means "this will help keep me from infecting others, and with widespread use of masking, help others from infecting me" then that argument is specious.
- mike00632 5y ago
  > that argument is specious You should really cite something to back up your claim that non-N95 masks don't help.
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, eh? I suggest you go back and re-read what I actually wrote. Because you apparently weren't able to retain the stuff from the beginning and middle of my comment by the time you got to the end, or just read the last sentence, I'm not so sure you'll be able to figure it out. As such, I'll explain. And I'll use small words so you'll be sure to understand. If you're a selfish piece of shit and only care about yourself, then only N95 masks are useful. However, if you're a normal, decent human being, you understand that non-N95 masks help to keep you from infecting others. What's more, if enough of us do so, non-N95 masks can absolutely help. I also want to take this opportunity to tell you to fuck off. Have a nice day!

lostapathy 5y ago

> People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. Is this actually true in the today's world of social media and 24x7 news cycle? I honestly can't think of anywhere (of any popularity) that still engages in nuanced discussion. Probably because people don't tune in.