15 ms·

Comment from the Southwest Pilots Union... >SWA has claimed that the immediate causes of this weekend’s meltdown were staffing at Jacksonville Center and weath

Comment from the Southwest Pilots Union... >SWA has claimed that the immediate causes of this weekend’s meltdown were staffing at Jacksonville Center and weather in the southeast U.S., but what was a minor temporary event for other carriers devastated Southwest Airlines because our operation has become brittle and subject to massive failures under the slightest pressure. Our operation and our frontline employees have endured continuous and unending disruptions since the first time our airline made headlines in early June due to widespread IT failures. Our Pilots are tired and frustrated because our operation is running on empty due to a lack of support from the Company. https://www.swapa.org/news/2021/swa-in-the-news/ https://www.swapa.org/news/2021/swa-in-the-news/

thr0wawayf00 5y ago
They also explicitly deny that a sickout is occuring: > There are false claims of job actions by Southwest Pilots currently gaining traction on social media and making their way into mainstream news. I can say with certainty that there are no work slowdowns or sickouts either related to the recent mandatory vaccine mandate or otherwise. Under the RLA, our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances. SWAPA has not authorized, and will not condone, any job action.
- vmception 5y ago
  That doesn’t match what I want to read, but I’m fine with that Since there is still skepticism from the other commenters too, if the union was lying could someone explain their motives? Like what benefit does would the union have to provide confidence to the nature of the disruption? Or to cover for their pilots/employees? Otherwise their statement being the truth is cool too
- generalizations 5y ago
  It would be worth checking that a third party can confirm this, given that other comments are pointing out that the given excuses don't add up.
- baggy_trough 5y ago
  Would it be in their interest to state this even if it wasn’t true?
  - drfxyjhdyfrhgc 5y ago
    Yes, in fact they would be required to make this statement. >...our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances...
- donw 5y ago
  Doesn’t that just mean the union itself isn’t organizing a sickout?
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Or at least not publicly admiting to it - which if the statement is to believed would be illegal, which sounds like a good motive to deny any knowledge.
- beerandt 5y ago
  >Under the RLA, our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances They couldn't admit it if that's what they're doing. They'd have to deny it either way. Even an "unofficial" unorganized sick out. On the other hand- if a pilot knew he was getting fired in two weeks for not getting vaccinated, and he happened to have two weeks sick pay, well then the company policy did all the "organizing" that needed to be done.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Even if an employee is fired for cause the employer is required to pay out accrued vacation time.
    - EarlKing 5y ago
      Being required to do a thing and actually doing a thing are two completely different things. Having the money to turn around and sue somebody for not disbursing your accrued vacation time is a third thing altogether.
    - briffle 5y ago
      That depends on what state you are in. Not every state requires it. But I’m guessing the pilots union agreement includes it.
      - throwawaycuriou 5y ago
        Indeed it does depend on the state. Surprisingly inconsistent in myriad ways across the US. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l...
    - Talanes 5y ago
      Where I am, they pay out vacation time, but not sick time (unless it's a combined pool, in which case vacation takes precedence.) I don't know how common that situation is, but it certainly incentivizes getting "sick" right before you leave a job.
- danielvf 5y ago
  No idea why parent is downvoted. The quote posted is on the official statement on union website linked.
- lettergram 5y ago
  I think that's because it's technically illegal to do a walkout... https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airlines-pilot/comments https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airli... In reality, a lot of pilots can just message each other on the side and say "f-it". Idk how many it takes to take down the system, but I suspect even 20% out sick could cause a cascading failure.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    20%? That would mean they have 20% extra pilots on standby ready to take over for the sick. I think it is far lower than that, more like 5% or less. I suspect it might be closer to 2%, that there are no real backups. I bet that when someone is stick someone else is called in on their weekend. That would be the labor action: pilots refusing to work overtime/weekends when called to cover for someone.
    - lettergram 5y ago
      Oh I agree, doesn't require a large number -- maybe 5% of pilots. To shut down all flights is likely still slightly higher. What I suspect is actually happening is much larger.
    - sh-run 5y ago
      My dad is a commercial pilot for a different carrier. The tl;dr is there are typically a subset of pilots on-call at any given time. Pilots who aren't on-call won't be asked to give up their weekends to cover flights. Pilots either "sit reserve" or "hold a line" based on seniority/airframe and to a lesser degree rank (ie a pilot may choose to sit reserve as a captain when they could be a line holder as an FO). Line holders have a set schedule that they bid on (again based on seniority). If someone calls in sick, misses a flight, or if a flight goes unscheduled, scheduling contacts a pilot that is sitting reserve who then fills in the missing position. When sitting reserve they get paid to hang out near the airport. Pilots are typically based out of some airport, reserve pilots need to be able to get to their airport within a set amount of time after being called (iirc 2 hours). It's not that there aren't real reserve pilots, it's that there are exactly the number of backups that there needs to be under normal circumstances. Airlines don't like paying people to sit around and they've got scheduling down to a science. I think I was in high school the last time my dad sat reserve. It felt like he had to fly almost every time (but not every time!) he was on reserve.
- throwaway224466 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - YokoZar 5y ago
    The Pfizer vaccine was fully approved on August 23 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
  - shock-value 5y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - throwaway224466 5y ago
      [dead]
    - thowaway976351 5y ago
      fascist
  - aardvarkr 5y ago
    "Pfizer Comirnaty" and "Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine" are biologically and chemically the same thing.
    - native_samples 5y ago
      Biologically and chemically but not liability-wise, which makes no sense, and is exactly the point the throwaway is making.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        That's a false claim, too. They are identical from a liability standpoint. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-claim-that-fully-approved-pfizer-vaccine-lacks-liability-protection/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-cla... > Indeed, contrary to the claims of Malone and others, the Comirnaty vaccine has the same liability protection as the vaccine approved under the EUA. That’s because of a law known as the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREP Act). > In early 2020, after the coronavirus emerged, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar invoked the PREP Act to “provide liability immunity for activities related to medical countermeasures against covid-19.” So that covers all vaccines that might be produced to combat the coronavirus, whether fully authorized or not. > “The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.”
thrdbndndn 5y ago
Maybe there is something between the lines, but it really does not say much other than the obvious "our operations are worse than other carriers".
- atatatat 5y ago
  What more should leadership (or investors) need to hear?
  - thrdbndndn 5y ago
    I'm saying it doesn't add much to the news.
    - rgj 5y ago
      It adds the lack of another reason, i.e. there is no mention of for instance a pilot shortage or vaccination restrictions.
- NegativeLatency 5y ago
  Maybe a symptom of trading efficiency for resiliency?
  - hef19898 5y ago
    In my experience, efficiency usually results in an increased level of resilience. You can easily sacrifice both, jeopardizing profits. Every time I saw that happen, it turned out some department-specific KPI (it doesn't matter which department, finance, production, sales, logistics,..) looked really good while that happened. All other sucked, but nobody cared. IMHO, this over emphasis on one silo, at the expense of all the others, puts so much stress on those other functions that they only can crack if something external puts even more stress on them. I guess that is what Covid and all the resulting disruptions is doing. Some orgs crack earlier than others, every one does have its cracking point so. The question is if an organization can adapt before it reaches its breaking point. Southwest it seems reached it before others.
smsm42 5y ago
> our operation has become brittle and subject to massive failures under the slightest pressure I somehow notice a lot of this lately, in many different areas. I wonder if there isn't a common cause behind those. Is it just covid or something bigger?
- hawk_ 5y ago
  this is the price we pay for rewarding "efficiencies" up and down the entire chain, leaving no slack whatsoever. with large companies or operations these efficiencies can be over really minor things as well because it means bonus for someone. the root cause of all of this is "short-termism". everyone is only worried about the next quarter, not the next 5 let alone 20-40 years.
  - listenallyall 5y ago
    The US commercial air transport industry is an absolute marvel. Millions of people moved thousands of miles every single day, mostly at extremely affordable fares. And tons of cargo moved as well. All with an excellent safety record, especially in the past decade. If "the price we pay" is a day or two of one airline (not any of the others) grounding most of its fleet, most likely due to a controversial internal HR policy, it's an exceptionally low price.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      You make it sound as if it was impossible to have such a marvelous industry without this deep degree of over-optimization. I disagree. The way I see it, with a bit more buffering here and there, it would be mostly the same - perhaps with less bullshit flights that could've been just as well taken by trains (which would be in a better condition, having more business flowing through them), and less middle-men everywhere sucking up the savings from all that optimization. This is the thing with markets: whatever optimization you make, you won't reap the fruits of it for long. Someone - either competitors or adjacent third parties - will show up to suck out your margin, leaving you mostly as you were, but locking that optimization in as a permanent fixture in the industry. This means that when companies over-optimize, shoot past the optimum "value to profits" ratio and aim for higher margins still, they make the industry permanently (well, until next collapse) worse for everyone.

thr0wawayf00 5y ago

They also explicitly deny that a sickout is occuring: > There are false claims of job actions by Southwest Pilots currently gaining traction on social media and making their way into mainstream news. I can say with certainty that there are no work slowdowns or sickouts either related to the recent mandatory vaccine mandate or otherwise. Under the RLA, our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances. SWAPA has not authorized, and will not condone, any job action.

vmception 5y ago
That doesn’t match what I want to read, but I’m fine with that Since there is still skepticism from the other commenters too, if the union was lying could someone explain their motives? Like what benefit does would the union have to provide confidence to the nature of the disruption? Or to cover for their pilots/employees? Otherwise their statement being the truth is cool too
generalizations 5y ago
It would be worth checking that a third party can confirm this, given that other comments are pointing out that the given excuses don't add up.
baggy_trough 5y ago
Would it be in their interest to state this even if it wasn’t true?
- drfxyjhdyfrhgc 5y ago
  Yes, in fact they would be required to make this statement. >...our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances...
donw 5y ago
Doesn’t that just mean the union itself isn’t organizing a sickout?
- bawolff 5y ago
  Or at least not publicly admiting to it - which if the statement is to believed would be illegal, which sounds like a good motive to deny any knowledge.
beerandt 5y ago
>Under the RLA, our Union is forbidden from taking job action to resolve labor disputes under these circumstances They couldn't admit it if that's what they're doing. They'd have to deny it either way. Even an "unofficial" unorganized sick out. On the other hand- if a pilot knew he was getting fired in two weeks for not getting vaccinated, and he happened to have two weeks sick pay, well then the company policy did all the "organizing" that needed to be done.
- nradov 5y ago
  Even if an employee is fired for cause the employer is required to pay out accrued vacation time.
  - EarlKing 5y ago
    Being required to do a thing and actually doing a thing are two completely different things. Having the money to turn around and sue somebody for not disbursing your accrued vacation time is a third thing altogether.
  - briffle 5y ago
    That depends on what state you are in. Not every state requires it. But I’m guessing the pilots union agreement includes it.
    - throwawaycuriou 5y ago
      Indeed it does depend on the state. Surprisingly inconsistent in myriad ways across the US. https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-l...
  - Talanes 5y ago
    Where I am, they pay out vacation time, but not sick time (unless it's a combined pool, in which case vacation takes precedence.) I don't know how common that situation is, but it certainly incentivizes getting "sick" right before you leave a job.
danielvf 5y ago
No idea why parent is downvoted. The quote posted is on the official statement on union website linked.
lettergram 5y ago
I think that's because it's technically illegal to do a walkout... https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airlines-pilot/comments https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/urgent-a-southwest-airli... In reality, a lot of pilots can just message each other on the side and say "f-it". Idk how many it takes to take down the system, but I suspect even 20% out sick could cause a cascading failure.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  20%? That would mean they have 20% extra pilots on standby ready to take over for the sick. I think it is far lower than that, more like 5% or less. I suspect it might be closer to 2%, that there are no real backups. I bet that when someone is stick someone else is called in on their weekend. That would be the labor action: pilots refusing to work overtime/weekends when called to cover for someone.
  - lettergram 5y ago
    Oh I agree, doesn't require a large number -- maybe 5% of pilots. To shut down all flights is likely still slightly higher. What I suspect is actually happening is much larger.
  - sh-run 5y ago
    My dad is a commercial pilot for a different carrier. The tl;dr is there are typically a subset of pilots on-call at any given time. Pilots who aren't on-call won't be asked to give up their weekends to cover flights. Pilots either "sit reserve" or "hold a line" based on seniority/airframe and to a lesser degree rank (ie a pilot may choose to sit reserve as a captain when they could be a line holder as an FO). Line holders have a set schedule that they bid on (again based on seniority). If someone calls in sick, misses a flight, or if a flight goes unscheduled, scheduling contacts a pilot that is sitting reserve who then fills in the missing position. When sitting reserve they get paid to hang out near the airport. Pilots are typically based out of some airport, reserve pilots need to be able to get to their airport within a set amount of time after being called (iirc 2 hours). It's not that there aren't real reserve pilots, it's that there are exactly the number of backups that there needs to be under normal circumstances. Airlines don't like paying people to sit around and they've got scheduling down to a science. I think I was in high school the last time my dad sat reserve. It felt like he had to fly almost every time (but not every time!) he was on reserve.
throwaway224466 5y ago
[flagged]
- YokoZar 5y ago
  The Pfizer vaccine was fully approved on August 23 https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr...
- shock-value 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway224466 5y ago
    [dead]
  - thowaway976351 5y ago
    fascist
- aardvarkr 5y ago
  "Pfizer Comirnaty" and "Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine" are biologically and chemically the same thing.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    Biologically and chemically but not liability-wise, which makes no sense, and is exactly the point the throwaway is making.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      That's a false claim, too. They are identical from a liability standpoint. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-claim-that-fully-approved-pfizer-vaccine-lacks-liability-protection/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/30/false-cla... > Indeed, contrary to the claims of Malone and others, the Comirnaty vaccine has the same liability protection as the vaccine approved under the EUA. That’s because of a law known as the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness Act (PREP Act). > In early 2020, after the coronavirus emerged, Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar invoked the PREP Act to “provide liability immunity for activities related to medical countermeasures against covid-19.” So that covers all vaccines that might be produced to combat the coronavirus, whether fully authorized or not. > “The liability protections afforded under the PREP Act are tied to the declared public health emergency and not whether the vaccine is sold under an EUA,” Castillo said. “Therefore, both Comirnaty and the Pfizer-BioNTech covid-19 vaccine receive the same liability protections as medical countermeasures against covid-19.”

thrdbndndn 5y ago

Maybe there is something between the lines, but it really does not say much other than the obvious "our operations are worse than other carriers".

atatatat 5y ago
What more should leadership (or investors) need to hear?
- thrdbndndn 5y ago
  I'm saying it doesn't add much to the news.
  - rgj 5y ago
    It adds the lack of another reason, i.e. there is no mention of for instance a pilot shortage or vaccination restrictions.
NegativeLatency 5y ago
Maybe a symptom of trading efficiency for resiliency?
- hef19898 5y ago
  In my experience, efficiency usually results in an increased level of resilience. You can easily sacrifice both, jeopardizing profits. Every time I saw that happen, it turned out some department-specific KPI (it doesn't matter which department, finance, production, sales, logistics,..) looked really good while that happened. All other sucked, but nobody cared. IMHO, this over emphasis on one silo, at the expense of all the others, puts so much stress on those other functions that they only can crack if something external puts even more stress on them. I guess that is what Covid and all the resulting disruptions is doing. Some orgs crack earlier than others, every one does have its cracking point so. The question is if an organization can adapt before it reaches its breaking point. Southwest it seems reached it before others.

smsm42 5y ago

> our operation has become brittle and subject to massive failures under the slightest pressure I somehow notice a lot of this lately, in many different areas. I wonder if there isn't a common cause behind those. Is it just covid or something bigger?

hawk_ 5y ago
this is the price we pay for rewarding "efficiencies" up and down the entire chain, leaving no slack whatsoever. with large companies or operations these efficiencies can be over really minor things as well because it means bonus for someone. the root cause of all of this is "short-termism". everyone is only worried about the next quarter, not the next 5 let alone 20-40 years.
- listenallyall 5y ago
  The US commercial air transport industry is an absolute marvel. Millions of people moved thousands of miles every single day, mostly at extremely affordable fares. And tons of cargo moved as well. All with an excellent safety record, especially in the past decade. If "the price we pay" is a day or two of one airline (not any of the others) grounding most of its fleet, most likely due to a controversial internal HR policy, it's an exceptionally low price.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    You make it sound as if it was impossible to have such a marvelous industry without this deep degree of over-optimization. I disagree. The way I see it, with a bit more buffering here and there, it would be mostly the same - perhaps with less bullshit flights that could've been just as well taken by trains (which would be in a better condition, having more business flowing through them), and less middle-men everywhere sucking up the savings from all that optimization. This is the thing with markets: whatever optimization you make, you won't reap the fruits of it for long. Someone - either competitors or adjacent third parties - will show up to suck out your margin, leaving you mostly as you were, but locking that optimization in as a permanent fixture in the industry. This means that when companies over-optimize, shoot past the optimum "value to profits" ratio and aim for higher margins still, they make the industry permanently (well, until next collapse) worse for everyone.