12 ms·

For Teen Girls, Instagram Is a Cesspool

120 points by adrian_mrd 5y ago

eigengrau5150 5y ago
Are we supposed to believe Instagram isn't a virtual sacrifice zone for people who aren't teenage girls? Social media is inherently toxic because that what happens when a bunch of undersocialized techies with no grasp of psychology turn a chunk of the internet into a never-ending high school reunion.
worker767424 5y ago
What if Facebook is a mirror that amplifies the best and worst parts of humanity, and we like attack it because it's easier than accepting that it's reflecting us.
bob229 5y ago
Social media is a cancer for anyone foolish enough to use it
padastra 5y ago
For society, the NYT is a cesspool.
- bob229 5y ago
  True, we would be much better off without both of them
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
realsimplesynd 5y ago
> “ Instagram’s algorithm might suggest more extreme dieting accounts with names such as “Eternally starved,” “I have to be thin” and “I want to be perfect.” “ I know people who cut themselves because of Instagram and not feeling adequate enough. I think there’s a similar version of this with competency for males. The feeling that you will never be good at what you do or that you need to do something to get there just hasn’t been exploited yet.
- advael 5y ago
  Are we living in the same reality? This is the vector by which a lot of creepy groups that primarily recruit/exploit young men convince them to join stuff. Literally any time anyone says a greek letter before the word "male" you are seeing that tactic working. We're just in a cultural moment where this has a harder time disguising itself as "normal and healthy interaction with one's peers" than exploiting insecurities about body image among teen girls.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    Not as much as you think, most people regard the "Sigma" thing as so stupid that its become a meme that ppl reference ironically. Like if u post a video of somebody doing something really stupid somebody might reply "sigma".
    - kodah 5y ago
      I've noticed recently that in gaming Sigma is only referred to ironically and is usually postured to poke fun at "alpha" stereotype fulfilling people and internet bullies.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    > Literally any time anyone says a greek letter before the word "male" you are seeing that tactic working. Not exactly. The pickup artist community and the alt-right use alpha and beta a lot, but the "sigma" stuff is just pure parody.
gorgoiler 5y ago
On my first day of house duty, when I started working as a teacher, I found one of my pupils — 12 at the time — watching a video on her school issued device. The video was made by another child, from some random place on the Internet: a teenage girl in the video, staring at the camera with a bland, vacant smile that looked like she had been lobotomized. The captions on the video had her asking these question of her audience: - How old did they think they would be when they died? - How did they think they will die? - How would they choose to die if you could control your own death? It was pretty clear that this was skirting around the idea of suicide, albeit in a fascination-of-the-macabre way I think, rather than explicitly encouraging it. Very creepy though. Apple iPad. TikTok video, reposted to YouTube. Viewed on my watch, while I was the adult in charge.
- bserge 5y ago
  It was skirting because outright talking about suicide in any form will get you banned. "You can go kill yourself and others, just don't use our platform for any content about it."
droidist2 5y ago
How come this NYT article isn't paywalled?
- jamesmishra 5y ago
  It is paywalled, if the NYT detects from your browser cookie that you have already consumed all of your free articles for the month. But some ad blockers, like Brave's "Shields" feature, manage to block NYT's tracking so that every article appears as if it is the first article you read this month.
  - realsimplesynd 5y ago
    Brave is such a great browser, it’s one of the few software products that makes me feel really happy when I use it
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - jeff42069 5y ago
      Works on Firefox as well and you can sleep well at night knowing you don't use software that is managed by Brendan Eich (except if you are a transphobe and visit /pol/ then yes Brave is perfect)
  - anakaine 5y ago
    Doesn't manage to block it on Android. Its a bit of a bummer, really.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
robbmorganf 5y ago
> "Ultimately, Instagram is just a vicious messenger. But the cesspool of content fueling it? That comes from us." I don't particularly like that this article tries to absolve Facebook. OK, maybe Facebook doesn't have any particular line of code "for (user in users) if user.girl: user.show(eating_disorder)" BUT they are getting paid to promote accounts with beauty advertisements, and they know those accounts promote eating disorders. That is clearly not in the public interest.
- throwaway908 5y ago
  Sounds like your criticism should be directed at the beauty companies.
beardedman 5y ago
For teen girls? God no, none of us are meant to have this sort of visibility into each others' lives.
gojomo 5y ago
Has Ms. Crouse seen TikTok?
- aaomidi 5y ago
  TikTok came after Facebook and wouldn't have been able to if we had done something about this earlier.
golemiprague 5y ago
Instagram is god gift for women, unlike youtube where you must create content and invest some work into it, in Instagram all you have to do is to present yourself, something which women tend to do since the beginning of times. Looking good is something that always affected human being life, Instagram actually expanded the audiences for those beautiful species and thus helped most above average women immensely. The fact that the average women don't learn from men and try to put their time into other endeavours, like developing wit, confidence, resourcefulness and innovation to compete, is them just succumbing to their nature and has nothing to do with Instagram. Turns out that at the end of the day, succumbing to nature gender roles is much stronger than any social engineering, don't blame the messenger.
cinericius 5y ago
>Citing his perspective as a parent, Mr. Zuckerberg pledged in his Facebook post his commitment to continuing to research and prioritize the welfare of children, framing their exposure to his products as inevitable. “The reality is that young people use technology,” he wrote. “Rather than ignoring this, technology companies should build experiences that meet their needs while also keeping them safe.” Without a commitment to screening advertisements and paid partnerships (which are arguably more damaging) for selling ridiculous psuedo-science like 'detox tea' to young women and girls this rings empty. While social media companies remain in the business of selling advertisement space, they can't be trusted to not tell anyone of any age that they aren't good enough in some way; there's simply too much money in it.
- rayiner 5y ago
  > Without a commitment to screening advertisements and paid partnerships (which are arguably more damaging) for selling ridiculous psuedo-science like 'detox tea' to young women and girls this rings empty. Unfortunately. a huge swath of all products marketed to young girls—many from blue chip companies—is stuff like this.
- maybelsyrup 5y ago
  Not saying anything about real world feasibility, but honestly, if I'm emperor? Advertising to minors outlawed.
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    This happens in some Scandinavian countries already and seems to work well.
  - locallost 5y ago
    Ads for minors are incredible trash. Basically the point of all tv channels that are for kids is to show ads for toys. Even a lot of shows are themselves nothing else than ads for toys. Let a child watch TV for an hour and the only thing that will happen is that they will come with a huge list of things they want. It's really sad. I watched a lot of TV when I was a child but it wasn't all made for you to buy licensed merchandise.
keewee7 5y ago
>Thirty-two percent of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse I'm pretty sure the same was true 20 years ago and back then it was mainstream media that made them feel worse. Are we really going to blame Instgram/FB for every societal problem? Also just a reminder that most teenagers have migrated to TikTok/Snapchat. Instagram is just celebrities and influencers now while Facebook is for keeping contact with relatives.
- bserge 5y ago
  Magazines all over the world are thankful for Facebook taking all the heat :D But yeah, people will blame anyone and anything rather than take (and learn) responsibility, so don't expect anything to be solved anytime soon.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > I'm pretty sure the same was true 20 years ago and back then it was mainstream media that made them feel worse. Fashion media, more specifically, and they were targeted for it much the same way Facebook is now, and for the same reason: it was a conscious, commercially engineered and manipulated effect intimately tied to marketing/advertising.
  - coffeefirst 5y ago
    Yes. And those magazines didn’t live in their pockets all day or automatically optimize for engagement.
    - bink 5y ago
      I see where you're going with this but it could also be argued that those magazines impacted far fewer people to a far lesser degree.
      - coffeefirst 5y ago
        That’s probably true.
Hamuko 5y ago
Isn't the entire world a cesspool for teen girls?
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
If I had kids, social media would probably be the only content I would want to block or limit. (Also ads/tracking and malware riddled sites). It is one thing to be a curious teen and seek out sensitive topics but it is completely different to be shown a stream of misrepresentations and false advertising constantly. I am not sure how to really do this. If you tell someone in the age of 10-14 that everything on certain sites is probably fake or misleading, are they going to understand that? I thought I did at that age but that capacity may have been limited to certain topics and contexts e.g click-bate ads are a lot easier to mentally filter out than sponsored Instagram/FB posts.
- lovecg 5y ago
  Not to mention the problems you run into with banning something every peer of theirs is using. That goes a long way towards making your kid a social outcast (and why in practice would be as easy to enforce as making them wear something unfashionable). Unfortunately I think limiting time with clear boundaries is the only practical way to go, outside of collective action by all parents.
  - suzzer99 5y ago
    This. The best you can do is hope they get started late and keep an eye on their social media as much as possible. Just NEVER let them know you're watching or they will take that sh*t underground. And of course try to raise them with good values and a solid emotional base to make good decisions with.
jeffbee 5y ago
Giving cesspools a bad name. At least a cesspool once served a sanitation purpose.
throwaway28390 5y ago
Why is all the recent attention focused solely on Instagram, Facebook, and "protecting teen girls"? How about the fact that Tinder makes dating nearly impossible for the average male?
armchairhacker 5y ago
This body insecurity, besides creating other issues, contributes to the obesity epidemic. Girls and boys who are perfectly healthy weights see these super-thin celebrities and starvation diets, causing them to starve themselves and feel insecure, causing them to binge and develop screwed-up hunger signals. It goes the other way too: since most people are fat losing weight is seen as a good thing, and people are constantly on a "diet" which they constantly complain about. It's not just Instagram, it's not even just celebrities, it's a lot of society. A "healthy" human body is neither super skinny not super fat, and a "healthy" human body is actually usually attractive. But a lot of people don't realize.
- randycupertino 5y ago
  The amount of filters and video filters out there is crazy in how much they change bodies and the perception of what is an ideal body. The Chinese Olympic swimmer was a recent notable one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q27w3w/a_chinese_olympic_swimmer_with_and_without/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q27w3w/a_... Here's a recent video filter: https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q44txx/dont_know_if_repost/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q44txx/do... Especially with the popular influencers doing this and when you see most of the comments impressed with how the "exercise" is helping vs how it's really a filter. https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/pwvs83/really_sad_to_see_this_fitness_influencer_posted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/pwvs83/re...
axguscbklp 5y ago
100 years ago: "legal alcohol is hurting our children" 70 years ago: "atheists and communists are hurting our children" 35 years ago: "drugs are hurting our children" 25 years ago: "violent video games are hurting our children" Now: "social media is hurting our children" All were/are probably true to some extent in some cases, but that does not mean that it necessarily made/makes sense to try to turn society against the risky or dangerous thing. Skateboarding hurts some children. Does that mean that we should ban TV shows that celebrate skateboarding? "It is for the sake of the children" is a time-tested way to get people to support authoritarian policies.
- ummonk 5y ago
  120 years ago: "coal mines are hurting our children"
  - suzzer99 5y ago
    60 years ago - "lead paint is hurting our children"
TacticalCoder 5y ago
> What exactly are we talking about here? Say you’re a 13-year-old girl who is beginning to feel anxious about your appearance, who has followed some diet influencers online. Seriously? The world has an obesity problem. A very serious one. But let's focus on the tragedy that is the few teenage girls being obsessed with being overly thin. You cannot make that shit up. And for the record: I'm not saying making young teenage girls feel insecure because they feel they're clinically obese when they're not is a good thing. What I'm saying is that the world has a very serious obesity problem and it's a very poorly chosen battle to focus on those trying to be ultra thin. If anything there are entire industries trying to make people as fat as possible... Maybe, just maybe, that it's a more serious problem to tackle than insecurity among teenagers (insecurity which predates social media btw)!? I don't know. Just maybe.
- dang 5y ago
  "Please don't fulminate." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- chrsig 5y ago
  Obesity is a problem, so we shouldn't combat anorexia, because it's a smaller problem? Should we abandon flu vaccines because covid is a worse virus? We've got how many billion people on this earth? I think we can afford to diversify our efforts in helping people.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  The next part of the paragraph you quoted is the important part, where the author identifies what they think the problem in that scenario is. >What exactly are we talking about here? Say you’re a 13-year-old girl who is beginning to feel anxious about your appearance, who has followed some diet influencers online. Instagram’s algorithm might suggest more extreme dieting accounts with names such as “Eternally starved,” “I have to be thin” and “I want to be perfect.” Anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder, so it's a big issue if Facebook is pushing young people interested in healthy weight loss toward "following" unhealthy body image and extreme dieting. (I don't know if you've known someone who has struggled with anorexia, but it can be really, really terrible.) Obesity being a problem doesn't negate the good that could be done by not algorithmically steering young people toward anorexia when they're looking to manage their weight in a healthy way.
maceurt 5y ago
Love how media consistently ignores male struggles with body dysmorphia even though it is just as big an issue for them as for females. Just look at how many men know take steroids nowadays, and the sad part is most people aren't aware that these people are even taking steroids and think it is naturally achievable body type. I have had conversations with people who are unwilling to believe even the Rock is on something. Lets keep watching the suicide rates climb for the lost boys as we cry about the slightest affront to women. Boys are held responsible for the oppression of women, which they weren't even alive to remember, and inherent none of the privilege or benefits. Male dysmorphia is ignored or supported (i.e. big dick energy), Male on Male rape is a joke (don't drop the soap), Female on Male rape is sex (look up snl Pete Davidson & Rounda Rousey), Female on Male domestic violence doesn't exist (Duluth model), Mens rights is sexist, Male virginity is toxic (incel), Male exclusive groups or friendships are boys clubs, Male perceived sexual failure is to be mocked (cuck), Male feminity is a weakness (soy boy), and a Male's duty is to protect females. Sick and tired of this world. Hope somebody else has the energy to fight, because I know I don't.
- bittercynic 5y ago
  I don't want to argue that these aren't real problems, but I don't think they're universal, and there are settings where people aren't out to insult and attack one another. Additionally, if you can become part of a supportive social circle it is much easier to have an attitude like: "There's a lot of trouble in the world, but lets enjoy life where we can and be kind to one another while pushing for positive change where possible."
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  Yep, it' sad we (as a society) have left boys behind, and advocating for them makes you a target of feminists, a sexist and many other nasty words.
- hsn915 5y ago
  I'm not really onboard with everything you say, but: > Male virginity is toxic (incel) This is the one that gets to me the most. Being involutary celibate, or even just having a dry run for a long time, is kind of like hell for a man. I'm not sure if women are capable of just appreciating how painful it is (judging by comments I read on line, they think it's a joke). Even men who have regular sex don't understand it, or quickly forget what it was like. > Male feminity is a weakness (soy boy), and a Male's duty is to protect females. These are not bad things. Male's duty is to protect. Not females as a class: the females and children in your family (wife, sister, mother). In fact, this is the thing that gives meaning to your life. If you're not capable of protecting your family, what are you good for? I'm not saying this as an attack. I'm saying that this is the internal voice in every man's head.
ta20211004_1 5y ago
I encourage people to have a look at the leaked document that is being referenced here. https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-mental-health-deep-dive.pdf https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-mental-hea... p24. Teens are about twice as likely to state that Instagram improves their mental health than to state that it harms it. p28. Teens who were already unsatisfied with their mental health tend to think Instagram harms their mental health more than teens who are satisfied with their mental health. Still, teens who are not satisfied with their mental health (in the USA) are more likely to think Instagram is a positive influence on mental health than a negative one. This is not true in the UK. If you're the kind of person who hates when statistics are abused for a narrative, this should be something you dislike. The "damning internal documents" actually show that 80% of teens have a neutral or positive reaction to Instagram, and teens are two times more likely to have a positive reaction than a negative one. Zuckerberg's comments about Instagram having an overall positive effect on teen mental health look a lot less like an obvious lie from this angle. My personal opinion/guess: Instagram and social media does deliver harmful content to some people and can have negative effects on people's mental health. However, in the discussion we've been having this week, every possible positive effect has been discounted to 0 value. That's not really fair, doesn't reflect the actual results of the leaked studies, and certainly doesn't match my anecdotal experience using social media (including fbook, reddit, hn and insta).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hsn915 5y ago
  Is this self evaluation useful at all though? It seems to me a case of a drug addict saying that drugs are good for himself. Or an obese person saying that Pizza helps him cope with life.
  - ta20211004_1 5y ago
    That's a fair question! Is there a better way to independently measure the mental health effect of a single variable on a person's life than just asking them?
ummonk 5y ago
> The advice of how to look and be your best often came dressed up in language of empowerment — and it wasn’t wrong about what it took to succeed in a sexist, appearances-driven society. If magazines left girls with the distinct impression that our bodies and faces were being constantly appraised, assessed and compared, that impression was confirmed by our experiences in the world. This is worth noting though. In a world where top twitch streamers make millions, are young women wrong to prioritize their appearance? Is it not a major factor in socioeconomic success?
zz865 5y ago
You dont think regular seeing other people in your school is enough of a cesspool. I can't think of much we can do about it except perhaps get all teenage girls to wear Burkas.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/top/?sort=top&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/top/?sort=top&t=al... This subreddit should really be propagated around, and all the kids should see it. From the poses, which make you seem a lot thinner, to pure photoshop... sadly, (almost) noone cares.
Graffur 5y ago
I bet TikTok is x10 worse although HN seems to love tiktok
goldcd 5y ago
I'm being old here I know - but instagram is surely the nadir of social media. Big brother facebook, cousin whatsapp - and even twitter, snapchat and tiktok on the other side of the tracks can actually say that they can fulfill a useful purpose. Instagram just seems to go out of their way to ensure nothing of any importance can be transmitted on the platform. Crappy little pictures with some token text, just enough to plug the sponsor. I think my point was I just don't see how it's healthy to anyone. If a magic wand was waved and instragram vanished - I can't even imagine a downside.
- suzzer99 5y ago
  It's fine for sharing travel pics with your friends, but an abomination for anything that touches money.
suzzer99 5y ago
Instagram is a cesspool for more than teen girls. I'm reminded of the influencer who charged $20k to endorse a product, and $75k to trash a product. All the top landscape photographers now have to use Instagram as their primary online marketing platform. Landscape photos look horrible at Instagram-size (even on the desktop the size and resolution is horrible) unless you boost the colors and jazz them up to a ludicrous degree. I'm on a lot of overlander forums, in the US and international. We never once see the top #VANLIFE Instagram stars unless they're trying to promote something. I'm convinced they get the sunset shot (10x likes if the woman is wearing a thong), then go stay in a hotel with all their influencer $$. I could go on. Basically Instagram destroys everything industry and hobby it touches. It's still fine for sharing travel pics with your friends though.

120 points by adrian_mrd 5y ago

Are we supposed to believe Instagram isn't a virtual sacrifice zone for people who aren't teenage girls? Social media is inherently toxic because that what happens when a bunch of undersocialized techies with no grasp of psychology turn a chunk of the internet into a never-ending high school reunion.

worker767424 5y ago

What if Facebook is a mirror that amplifies the best and worst parts of humanity, and we like attack it because it's easier than accepting that it's reflecting us.

bob229 5y ago

Social media is a cancer for anyone foolish enough to use it

padastra 5y ago

For society, the NYT is a cesspool.

bob229 5y ago
True, we would be much better off without both of them

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

realsimplesynd 5y ago

> “ Instagram’s algorithm might suggest more extreme dieting accounts with names such as “Eternally starved,” “I have to be thin” and “I want to be perfect.” “ I know people who cut themselves because of Instagram and not feeling adequate enough. I think there’s a similar version of this with competency for males. The feeling that you will never be good at what you do or that you need to do something to get there just hasn’t been exploited yet.

advael 5y ago
Are we living in the same reality? This is the vector by which a lot of creepy groups that primarily recruit/exploit young men convince them to join stuff. Literally any time anyone says a greek letter before the word "male" you are seeing that tactic working. We're just in a cultural moment where this has a harder time disguising itself as "normal and healthy interaction with one's peers" than exploiting insecurities about body image among teen girls.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  Not as much as you think, most people regard the "Sigma" thing as so stupid that its become a meme that ppl reference ironically. Like if u post a video of somebody doing something really stupid somebody might reply "sigma".
  - kodah 5y ago
    I've noticed recently that in gaming Sigma is only referred to ironically and is usually postured to poke fun at "alpha" stereotype fulfilling people and internet bullies.
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Literally any time anyone says a greek letter before the word "male" you are seeing that tactic working. Not exactly. The pickup artist community and the alt-right use alpha and beta a lot, but the "sigma" stuff is just pure parody.

gorgoiler 5y ago

On my first day of house duty, when I started working as a teacher, I found one of my pupils — 12 at the time — watching a video on her school issued device. The video was made by another child, from some random place on the Internet: a teenage girl in the video, staring at the camera with a bland, vacant smile that looked like she had been lobotomized. The captions on the video had her asking these question of her audience: - How old did they think they would be when they died? - How did they think they will die? - How would they choose to die if you could control your own death? It was pretty clear that this was skirting around the idea of suicide, albeit in a fascination-of-the-macabre way I think, rather than explicitly encouraging it. Very creepy though. Apple iPad. TikTok video, reposted to YouTube. Viewed on my watch, while I was the adult in charge.

bserge 5y ago
It was skirting because outright talking about suicide in any form will get you banned. "You can go kill yourself and others, just don't use our platform for any content about it."

droidist2 5y ago

How come this NYT article isn't paywalled?

jamesmishra 5y ago
It is paywalled, if the NYT detects from your browser cookie that you have already consumed all of your free articles for the month. But some ad blockers, like Brave's "Shields" feature, manage to block NYT's tracking so that every article appears as if it is the first article you read this month.
- realsimplesynd 5y ago
  Brave is such a great browser, it’s one of the few software products that makes me feel really happy when I use it
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeff42069 5y ago
    Works on Firefox as well and you can sleep well at night knowing you don't use software that is managed by Brendan Eich (except if you are a transphobe and visit /pol/ then yes Brave is perfect)
- anakaine 5y ago
  Doesn't manage to block it on Android. Its a bit of a bummer, really.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

robbmorganf 5y ago

> "Ultimately, Instagram is just a vicious messenger. But the cesspool of content fueling it? That comes from us." I don't particularly like that this article tries to absolve Facebook. OK, maybe Facebook doesn't have any particular line of code "for (user in users) if user.girl: user.show(eating_disorder)" BUT they are getting paid to promote accounts with beauty advertisements, and they know those accounts promote eating disorders. That is clearly not in the public interest.

throwaway908 5y ago
Sounds like your criticism should be directed at the beauty companies.

beardedman 5y ago

For teen girls? God no, none of us are meant to have this sort of visibility into each others' lives.

gojomo 5y ago

Has Ms. Crouse seen TikTok?

aaomidi 5y ago
TikTok came after Facebook and wouldn't have been able to if we had done something about this earlier.

golemiprague 5y ago

Instagram is god gift for women, unlike youtube where you must create content and invest some work into it, in Instagram all you have to do is to present yourself, something which women tend to do since the beginning of times. Looking good is something that always affected human being life, Instagram actually expanded the audiences for those beautiful species and thus helped most above average women immensely. The fact that the average women don't learn from men and try to put their time into other endeavours, like developing wit, confidence, resourcefulness and innovation to compete, is them just succumbing to their nature and has nothing to do with Instagram. Turns out that at the end of the day, succumbing to nature gender roles is much stronger than any social engineering, don't blame the messenger.

cinericius 5y ago

>Citing his perspective as a parent, Mr. Zuckerberg pledged in his Facebook post his commitment to continuing to research and prioritize the welfare of children, framing their exposure to his products as inevitable. “The reality is that young people use technology,” he wrote. “Rather than ignoring this, technology companies should build experiences that meet their needs while also keeping them safe.” Without a commitment to screening advertisements and paid partnerships (which are arguably more damaging) for selling ridiculous psuedo-science like 'detox tea' to young women and girls this rings empty. While social media companies remain in the business of selling advertisement space, they can't be trusted to not tell anyone of any age that they aren't good enough in some way; there's simply too much money in it.

rayiner 5y ago
> Without a commitment to screening advertisements and paid partnerships (which are arguably more damaging) for selling ridiculous psuedo-science like 'detox tea' to young women and girls this rings empty. Unfortunately. a huge swath of all products marketed to young girls—many from blue chip companies—is stuff like this.
maybelsyrup 5y ago
Not saying anything about real world feasibility, but honestly, if I'm emperor? Advertising to minors outlawed.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  This happens in some Scandinavian countries already and seems to work well.
- locallost 5y ago
  Ads for minors are incredible trash. Basically the point of all tv channels that are for kids is to show ads for toys. Even a lot of shows are themselves nothing else than ads for toys. Let a child watch TV for an hour and the only thing that will happen is that they will come with a huge list of things they want. It's really sad. I watched a lot of TV when I was a child but it wasn't all made for you to buy licensed merchandise.

keewee7 5y ago

>Thirty-two percent of teen girls said that when they felt bad about their bodies, Instagram made them feel worse I'm pretty sure the same was true 20 years ago and back then it was mainstream media that made them feel worse. Are we really going to blame Instgram/FB for every societal problem? Also just a reminder that most teenagers have migrated to TikTok/Snapchat. Instagram is just celebrities and influencers now while Facebook is for keeping contact with relatives.

bserge 5y ago
Magazines all over the world are thankful for Facebook taking all the heat :D But yeah, people will blame anyone and anything rather than take (and learn) responsibility, so don't expect anything to be solved anytime soon.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I'm pretty sure the same was true 20 years ago and back then it was mainstream media that made them feel worse. Fashion media, more specifically, and they were targeted for it much the same way Facebook is now, and for the same reason: it was a conscious, commercially engineered and manipulated effect intimately tied to marketing/advertising.
- coffeefirst 5y ago
  Yes. And those magazines didn’t live in their pockets all day or automatically optimize for engagement.
  - bink 5y ago
    I see where you're going with this but it could also be argued that those magazines impacted far fewer people to a far lesser degree.
    - coffeefirst 5y ago
      That’s probably true.

Hamuko 5y ago

Isn't the entire world a cesspool for teen girls?

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

If I had kids, social media would probably be the only content I would want to block or limit. (Also ads/tracking and malware riddled sites). It is one thing to be a curious teen and seek out sensitive topics but it is completely different to be shown a stream of misrepresentations and false advertising constantly. I am not sure how to really do this. If you tell someone in the age of 10-14 that everything on certain sites is probably fake or misleading, are they going to understand that? I thought I did at that age but that capacity may have been limited to certain topics and contexts e.g click-bate ads are a lot easier to mentally filter out than sponsored Instagram/FB posts.

lovecg 5y ago
Not to mention the problems you run into with banning something every peer of theirs is using. That goes a long way towards making your kid a social outcast (and why in practice would be as easy to enforce as making them wear something unfashionable). Unfortunately I think limiting time with clear boundaries is the only practical way to go, outside of collective action by all parents.
- suzzer99 5y ago
  This. The best you can do is hope they get started late and keep an eye on their social media as much as possible. Just NEVER let them know you're watching or they will take that sh*t underground. And of course try to raise them with good values and a solid emotional base to make good decisions with.

jeffbee 5y ago

Giving cesspools a bad name. At least a cesspool once served a sanitation purpose.

throwaway28390 5y ago

Why is all the recent attention focused solely on Instagram, Facebook, and "protecting teen girls"? How about the fact that Tinder makes dating nearly impossible for the average male?

armchairhacker 5y ago

This body insecurity, besides creating other issues, contributes to the obesity epidemic. Girls and boys who are perfectly healthy weights see these super-thin celebrities and starvation diets, causing them to starve themselves and feel insecure, causing them to binge and develop screwed-up hunger signals. It goes the other way too: since most people are fat losing weight is seen as a good thing, and people are constantly on a "diet" which they constantly complain about. It's not just Instagram, it's not even just celebrities, it's a lot of society. A "healthy" human body is neither super skinny not super fat, and a "healthy" human body is actually usually attractive. But a lot of people don't realize.

randycupertino 5y ago
The amount of filters and video filters out there is crazy in how much they change bodies and the perception of what is an ideal body. The Chinese Olympic swimmer was a recent notable one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q27w3w/a_chinese_olympic_swimmer_with_and_without/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q27w3w/a_... Here's a recent video filter: https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q44txx/dont_know_if_repost/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/q44txx/do... Especially with the popular influencers doing this and when you see most of the comments impressed with how the "exercise" is helping vs how it's really a filter. https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/pwvs83/really_sad_to_see_this_fitness_influencer_posted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/comments/pwvs83/re...

axguscbklp 5y ago

100 years ago: "legal alcohol is hurting our children" 70 years ago: "atheists and communists are hurting our children" 35 years ago: "drugs are hurting our children" 25 years ago: "violent video games are hurting our children" Now: "social media is hurting our children" All were/are probably true to some extent in some cases, but that does not mean that it necessarily made/makes sense to try to turn society against the risky or dangerous thing. Skateboarding hurts some children. Does that mean that we should ban TV shows that celebrate skateboarding? "It is for the sake of the children" is a time-tested way to get people to support authoritarian policies.

ummonk 5y ago
120 years ago: "coal mines are hurting our children"
- suzzer99 5y ago
  60 years ago - "lead paint is hurting our children"

TacticalCoder 5y ago

> What exactly are we talking about here? Say you’re a 13-year-old girl who is beginning to feel anxious about your appearance, who has followed some diet influencers online. Seriously? The world has an obesity problem. A very serious one. But let's focus on the tragedy that is the few teenage girls being obsessed with being overly thin. You cannot make that shit up. And for the record: I'm not saying making young teenage girls feel insecure because they feel they're clinically obese when they're not is a good thing. What I'm saying is that the world has a very serious obesity problem and it's a very poorly chosen battle to focus on those trying to be ultra thin. If anything there are entire industries trying to make people as fat as possible... Maybe, just maybe, that it's a more serious problem to tackle than insecurity among teenagers (insecurity which predates social media btw)!? I don't know. Just maybe.

dang 5y ago
"Please don't fulminate." "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
chrsig 5y ago
Obesity is a problem, so we shouldn't combat anorexia, because it's a smaller problem? Should we abandon flu vaccines because covid is a worse virus? We've got how many billion people on this earth? I think we can afford to diversify our efforts in helping people.
hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
The next part of the paragraph you quoted is the important part, where the author identifies what they think the problem in that scenario is. >What exactly are we talking about here? Say you’re a 13-year-old girl who is beginning to feel anxious about your appearance, who has followed some diet influencers online. Instagram’s algorithm might suggest more extreme dieting accounts with names such as “Eternally starved,” “I have to be thin” and “I want to be perfect.” Anorexia has the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder, so it's a big issue if Facebook is pushing young people interested in healthy weight loss toward "following" unhealthy body image and extreme dieting. (I don't know if you've known someone who has struggled with anorexia, but it can be really, really terrible.) Obesity being a problem doesn't negate the good that could be done by not algorithmically steering young people toward anorexia when they're looking to manage their weight in a healthy way.

maceurt 5y ago

Love how media consistently ignores male struggles with body dysmorphia even though it is just as big an issue for them as for females. Just look at how many men know take steroids nowadays, and the sad part is most people aren't aware that these people are even taking steroids and think it is naturally achievable body type. I have had conversations with people who are unwilling to believe even the Rock is on something. Lets keep watching the suicide rates climb for the lost boys as we cry about the slightest affront to women. Boys are held responsible for the oppression of women, which they weren't even alive to remember, and inherent none of the privilege or benefits. Male dysmorphia is ignored or supported (i.e. big dick energy), Male on Male rape is a joke (don't drop the soap), Female on Male rape is sex (look up snl Pete Davidson & Rounda Rousey), Female on Male domestic violence doesn't exist (Duluth model), Mens rights is sexist, Male virginity is toxic (incel), Male exclusive groups or friendships are boys clubs, Male perceived sexual failure is to be mocked (cuck), Male feminity is a weakness (soy boy), and a Male's duty is to protect females. Sick and tired of this world. Hope somebody else has the energy to fight, because I know I don't.

bittercynic 5y ago
I don't want to argue that these aren't real problems, but I don't think they're universal, and there are settings where people aren't out to insult and attack one another. Additionally, if you can become part of a supportive social circle it is much easier to have an attitude like: "There's a lot of trouble in the world, but lets enjoy life where we can and be kind to one another while pushing for positive change where possible."
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Yep, it' sad we (as a society) have left boys behind, and advocating for them makes you a target of feminists, a sexist and many other nasty words.
hsn915 5y ago
I'm not really onboard with everything you say, but: > Male virginity is toxic (incel) This is the one that gets to me the most. Being involutary celibate, or even just having a dry run for a long time, is kind of like hell for a man. I'm not sure if women are capable of just appreciating how painful it is (judging by comments I read on line, they think it's a joke). Even men who have regular sex don't understand it, or quickly forget what it was like. > Male feminity is a weakness (soy boy), and a Male's duty is to protect females. These are not bad things. Male's duty is to protect. Not females as a class: the females and children in your family (wife, sister, mother). In fact, this is the thing that gives meaning to your life. If you're not capable of protecting your family, what are you good for? I'm not saying this as an attack. I'm saying that this is the internal voice in every man's head.

ta20211004_1 5y ago

I encourage people to have a look at the leaked document that is being referenced here. https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-mental-health-deep-dive.pdf https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/teen-mental-hea... p24. Teens are about twice as likely to state that Instagram improves their mental health than to state that it harms it. p28. Teens who were already unsatisfied with their mental health tend to think Instagram harms their mental health more than teens who are satisfied with their mental health. Still, teens who are not satisfied with their mental health (in the USA) are more likely to think Instagram is a positive influence on mental health than a negative one. This is not true in the UK. If you're the kind of person who hates when statistics are abused for a narrative, this should be something you dislike. The "damning internal documents" actually show that 80% of teens have a neutral or positive reaction to Instagram, and teens are two times more likely to have a positive reaction than a negative one. Zuckerberg's comments about Instagram having an overall positive effect on teen mental health look a lot less like an obvious lie from this angle. My personal opinion/guess: Instagram and social media does deliver harmful content to some people and can have negative effects on people's mental health. However, in the discussion we've been having this week, every possible positive effect has been discounted to 0 value. That's not really fair, doesn't reflect the actual results of the leaked studies, and certainly doesn't match my anecdotal experience using social media (including fbook, reddit, hn and insta).

deleted 5y ago
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hsn915 5y ago
Is this self evaluation useful at all though? It seems to me a case of a drug addict saying that drugs are good for himself. Or an obese person saying that Pizza helps him cope with life.
- ta20211004_1 5y ago
  That's a fair question! Is there a better way to independently measure the mental health effect of a single variable on a person's life than just asking them?

ummonk 5y ago

> The advice of how to look and be your best often came dressed up in language of empowerment — and it wasn’t wrong about what it took to succeed in a sexist, appearances-driven society. If magazines left girls with the distinct impression that our bodies and faces were being constantly appraised, assessed and compared, that impression was confirmed by our experiences in the world. This is worth noting though. In a world where top twitch streamers make millions, are young women wrong to prioritize their appearance? Is it not a major factor in socioeconomic success?

zz865 5y ago

You dont think regular seeing other people in your school is enough of a cesspool. I can't think of much we can do about it except perhaps get all teenage girls to wear Burkas.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/top/?sort=top&t=all https://old.reddit.com/r/Instagramreality/top/?sort=top&t=al... This subreddit should really be propagated around, and all the kids should see it. From the poses, which make you seem a lot thinner, to pure photoshop... sadly, (almost) noone cares.

Graffur 5y ago

I bet TikTok is x10 worse although HN seems to love tiktok

goldcd 5y ago

I'm being old here I know - but instagram is surely the nadir of social media. Big brother facebook, cousin whatsapp - and even twitter, snapchat and tiktok on the other side of the tracks can actually say that they can fulfill a useful purpose. Instagram just seems to go out of their way to ensure nothing of any importance can be transmitted on the platform. Crappy little pictures with some token text, just enough to plug the sponsor. I think my point was I just don't see how it's healthy to anyone. If a magic wand was waved and instragram vanished - I can't even imagine a downside.

suzzer99 5y ago
It's fine for sharing travel pics with your friends, but an abomination for anything that touches money.

suzzer99 5y ago

Instagram is a cesspool for more than teen girls. I'm reminded of the influencer who charged $20k to endorse a product, and $75k to trash a product. All the top landscape photographers now have to use Instagram as their primary online marketing platform. Landscape photos look horrible at Instagram-size (even on the desktop the size and resolution is horrible) unless you boost the colors and jazz them up to a ludicrous degree. I'm on a lot of overlander forums, in the US and international. We never once see the top #VANLIFE Instagram stars unless they're trying to promote something. I'm convinced they get the sunset shot (10x likes if the woman is wearing a thong), then go stay in a hotel with all their influencer $$. I could go on. Basically Instagram destroys everything industry and hobby it touches. It's still fine for sharing travel pics with your friends though.