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Dripping with assumptions about what people want from 'off grid living'. I have family members who are totally off-grid, totally disconnected from all physical

Dripping with assumptions about what people want from 'off grid living'. I have family members who are totally off-grid, totally disconnected from all physical services (they have internet). I helped setup many of their systems. They do not use anything like a "pit toilet" nor do they "collect rainwater". Off-grid living isn't medieval. It can be just as luxurious as any city. Water comes form wells drilled deep into the ground. Sewage goes to the same septic fields, not pits, that are common in older suburbs across NA. Bathrooms have in-floor heating. Televisions are just as big as anywhere else. The kids play minecraft with their friends while mom and dad stream netflix. Step into a modern off-grid house and you wouldn't see any differences. A modern solar rig can generate so much energy in summer that my relatives are seriously considering bitcoin mining. Once the batteries are full that power capacity is going to waste. Their electricity cost during such times is literally zero.

fnord77 5y ago
I would argue that having internet access is not "off-grid"
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I would say it is the most important grid. Or least replaceable.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Hopefully Starlink and similar help. Water/sewage is fairly straightforward anywhere you can drill a well. And there are various options for electric and heat. But if you can't get wired broadband, your options today are either satellite (expensive, laggy) or microcell (expensive, not available everywhere)--neither of which allow you to "just use" streaming and other data-intensive services a lot of people increasingly see as necessary. And outside of a short-term vacation home, it's not unreasonable to think that at least minimal (e.g. no video streaming Internet) is something of a requirement for most people.
nazgulnarsil 5y ago
>Dripping with assumptions why the random negativity? Would you prefer they had kept the information they researched to themselves?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  I would prefer they provide information relevant to modern off-grid living. What is required to drill a well? Are there rules regarding potable water storage tanks? How difficult is it to get a septic field permit? Are their rules about running your own diesel generator? How much diesel fuel and/or propane can you store on a site? Are there rules regarding large batteries? Must such batteries live in an out building? I read far to many articles like this that conflate "off grid" with "primitive" living. It gives the false impression that people on off-grid properties somehow must sacrifice modern amenities and play dice with basic sanitation and health codes. They don't. Off grid properties are just as clean and healthy as any modern suburb.
  - willvarfar 5y ago
    It’s an article on a website called “primitive survivor” and its aimed at its audience. Do start a help website called “big budget off grid” or something ;)
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    I would be surprised if anywhere in the US didn't allow at least 1000 gallon propane tanks. At least, any somewhat rural location that would be sensible to take all the way off grid.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I am guessing there are about a thousand different answers to those questions depending upon where you live in the US, to say nothing about the rigor of the enforcement.
ranit 5y ago
> totally disconnected from all physical services Do they have mail or courier services?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  No. Not to the house. They have to go into town to get their mail/amazon deliveries, which is not an unusual situation in rural areas.
  - geocrasher 5y ago
    Heck, I have to do that and I live in a small town on the main road only a mile from the post office!
m0ngr31 5y ago
Yep, I'm off grid (minus fiber internet), and you wouldn't be able to tell
- sandworm101 5y ago
  I can tell during power outages when everyone else's houses go dark.
lettergram 5y ago
I came here to say the same thing. In rural Tennessee literally zero people discuss regulations or care. I asked and I was laughed out of the room lol there’s a 180 year old cabin on the property and in the 90s someone put in some red neck engineering — using just a random set of barrels for a septic system. So somewhere near there is a barrel that’ll collapse one day. No idea where lol. The point of that story is, regulations aren’t reality in many of these places. They may be there but in reality... Finally, rules regarding collecting of rain water or lack of green energy incentives should decrease the off-grid ability lol. First, no one can regulate your collection of rain water. Second, lack of initiatives isn’t a law or regulation.
- riversflow 5y ago
  In rural California you'll get a notice that you can't live on your own property if you don't have an approved septic system registered with the county. I know multiple people who have had this happen to them in a couple of counties, and have heard about it in several others. I personally find it kinda lame you can't live in an RV on property you own. The septic system approval process involves soil sampling and engineering based on dwelling size (I can't remember if its area or number of bedrooms) in the counties I'm familiar with.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    California needs to lighten up on regulations. I like California. I have lived here my entire life, but the regulations/fees/fines are outrageous. I looked into buying some property years ago near Bolinas. I asked the Realator why it was so cheap. She said you can't build-- can't even set up a tent. You can't even take a nap on the land. He, "So what's it good for?". Her, "Maybe leech lines?". Want to build your cabin, or home. In my town, of San anselmo, the town council decides pretty much every aspect of your build down to window placement (Homeowner might see Karen naked if that window isn't higher. They even ok your roof type, wether you use stucco, or shiplap, and even the Petunias in your front yard. Neusom is trying, but ADU's are being used by rich people to gain more house footage. And there's a part of me that wants all building stopped until we figure out this water problem.
tlrobinson 5y ago
I would guess this article doesn’t cover wells and septic systems because they’re so common in rural and semi-rural areas. I doubt any states don’t allow them at all, and this only discusses state laws.
OldHand2018 5y ago
How deep are the water wells? I was told that the deeper the well, the more expensive everything gets, from the pumps to the filtration systems. My well is 200’ deep and I get great water with just a carbon+ozone chemical-free treatment system and a basic water softener. The bags of salt are only like $6 and I use maybe 2 per month.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Wells are 100% determined by local conditions. In the pacific northwest you will hit water very quickly and find lots of it. Arsenic and other contaminants are an issue, but if you follow the health codes most people find perfectly good water strait out of the ground without treatment or even filtration. Whether your water is hard or soft depends on the nature of the rock your are drilling though. Most off grid houses these days opt for large holding tanks and a relatively small pump. There are some great well pumps specifically designed to run directly off of solar. No batteries or inverters required. I can recommend these pumps. I know of a couple that have been running for 10+ years off of solar without any issues. https://product-selection.grundfos.com/ca/products/sqflex https://product-selection.grundfos.com/ca/products/sqflex Find the local authority and get the water tested properly. And it doesn't hurt to "shock" your system with a bucket of bleach every few months.
  - pa7ch 5y ago
    Could you explain this bleach process? Are you saying people add bleach to the well?
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      You add it to your storage tank (assuming you have one). Also done if you collect rainwater.
    - sandworm101 5y ago
      Yes. I have personally done exactly that. When a well is first drilled it can have contamination from the drilling equipment. A few liters of chlorine bleach poured down the well kills everything. Holding tanks can also benefit from the occasional bleaching. You run the taps for a few hours and the diluted bleach passes through the system sanitizing everything along the way. It isn't really dangerous but you probably want to hold off on doing dark laundry during the process.
ridaj 5y ago
TBF, when I check out the overall blog, it is called "primal survivor", seems to cater primarily to the crowd that gets excited about digging one's own pit toilet with a portable shovel, and does happen to have a list of regulations relevant to that kind of off-the-grid living...
LatteLazy 5y ago
Forgive my ignorance but... If you have all those things and your kids spend all day playing Minecraft, are you really off grid? I thought the whole point of being off grid was to be more basic? If you live the same life as an on-grid people, why bother being off the grid?
- inkblotuniverse 5y ago
  To be off the grid - to be self-sufficient for electricity, water, etc. Depending on how remote you are, it might be the cheapest option. You can like that idea without wanting to 'return to nature'. People can like independence without buying in to any of the rest of your ideas...
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Try building a new house outside of a city. Look at how much it costs to run wires/pipes even a few hundred meters. Poles will cost to 10k each and you will be on the hook to maintain them. That it IF the local service has capacity for you. You might be asked to upgrade an entire service line. Today, for the same money, you can get a massive off-grid solar rig and never have to pay an electric bill.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
11235813213455 5y ago
Why are you presenting rainwater and compost toilets as negative / mediaval solutions? It's like criticizing a bicyle, They are perfect efficient solutions. If you eat organic food, your excrement is more or less fertilizer, no need to spend resources and energy treating them
- CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
  Isn't using human excrement as fertilizer a big no for food safety?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    If properly handled/processed, it's ok. One consideration is what people are consuming to create it. For example, some medications are found in excrement. I don't know which, if any, can be taken up by plants. So this along with any other chemicals people flush would make me leary of using sewage from a sewer plant, but residential level systems have a lot more control over those inputs.
  - op00to 5y ago
    Yes.
  - foxhop 5y ago
    Proper decomposition and enough time renders the material safe for application to food crops (typically 1-2 years and applied to Perennial crops as "side dressing"). That said, you must separate humanure from safer waste which may be applied as crop dressing in as little as 18 days using hot composting methods. For more details checkout my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini An easy compost toilet is a bucket to poo into and woodchips or sawdust which is high carbon and soaks up smells and liquids, is layered after each use, emptied into a dedicated pile oftened tarped to control moisture.
  - Litost 5y ago
    It's been a while since I've read the Humanure Handbook and I've not practiced many of the techniques in it but it does cover this topic in great detail: https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ I believe it is possible you just have to be really careful with how it's treated, especially around vegetables etc. There's also a natural blackwater treatment system, briefly mentioned in this really great video from one of my favourite Permaculture teachers (EDIT: it's at 46:45), which also happens to be a great introduction to Permaculture if you're interested: https://vimeo.com/95060300 https://vimeo.com/95060300
tinus_hn 5y ago
> Their electricity cost during such times is literally zero Not very surprising considering you earlier claimed they were off-grid.
- harvey9 5y ago
  I think they mean there is not even an opportunity cost once batteries are full.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  Zero on the extra capacity after the batteries are full. That is power that would otherwise never be used/stored.
coldtea 5y ago
>The kids play minecraft with their friends while mom and dad stream netflix. Step into a modern off-grid house and you wouldn't see any differences. Well, if part of being off-grid pressuposes the existance of a huge global and domestic grid to fund, manufacture, transport, and sell you things like internet service, routers, Netflix shows, computer games, televisions, laptops, all kinds of electric and digital appliances, solar cells, batteries, and so on, trucks, factories and cargo ships to transport them, mines extracting resources to make them, the associated with the above waste disposal, even cities and businesses built around all these to support the people making those and their families (plus your own work, paid in regular currency to afford the aforementioned), I'm not sure how "off-grid" it really is... This "off grid" sure is not some Walden style affair. It just means "I buy and setup "renewable energy" units for my family's exclusive energy production and storage and have a self-owned shit disposal method, otherwise you couldn't tell mine from any other house in the area".
- awolf 5y ago
  yes we're talking about living in today's world but... off the grid. no one said "historical reenactment" ?
  - MonkeyClub 5y ago
    This is definitely not "off the grid", except for very narrow definitions of the grid. Perhaps "somewhat eco friendly" would be a better designation, or "light on corporate resources" (with the exception of Internet and GP's longish list).
    - theptip 5y ago
      Isn’t the “grid” literally the electricity grid? But the phrase also can connote going completely out of contact, so it’s ambiguous.
      - salawat 5y ago
        Off "the grid" is more than off the utility grid. It implies a rejection of the globalized supply chain, and a return to subsistence consumption. If you can't make it, you don't have it. This also includes non-existence in the financial system, and the minimization of data footprint.
stakkur 5y ago
It seems like a fair summary of laws, not ‘dripping with assumptions’. And rainwater harvesting—something I’ve spent years doing and researching—is the most common ‘off grid’ practice. There’s a continuum of ‘off grid’ out there—most folks aren’t 100% disconnected from shared services.
dahart 5y ago
> Water comes from wells drilled deep into the ground. Sewage goes to the same septic fields […] A modern solar rig can generate so much energy Wait, this compendium of laws seems to cover all those things. Wells are ground-water, and there are many states with laws about how much ground-water you’re allowed to use. A septic field is part of a small grid, and has to be organized, zoned, and agreed to, and use by neighbors. And the article mentions off-grid solar is basically legal almost everywhere. What’s wrong with also including the laws about pit-toilets and rainwater collection in an article about off-grid laws?

fnord77 5y ago

I would argue that having internet access is not "off-grid"

lotsofpulp 5y ago
I would say it is the most important grid. Or least replaceable.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Hopefully Starlink and similar help. Water/sewage is fairly straightforward anywhere you can drill a well. And there are various options for electric and heat. But if you can't get wired broadband, your options today are either satellite (expensive, laggy) or microcell (expensive, not available everywhere)--neither of which allow you to "just use" streaming and other data-intensive services a lot of people increasingly see as necessary. And outside of a short-term vacation home, it's not unreasonable to think that at least minimal (e.g. no video streaming Internet) is something of a requirement for most people.

nazgulnarsil 5y ago

>Dripping with assumptions why the random negativity? Would you prefer they had kept the information they researched to themselves?

sandworm101 5y ago
I would prefer they provide information relevant to modern off-grid living. What is required to drill a well? Are there rules regarding potable water storage tanks? How difficult is it to get a septic field permit? Are their rules about running your own diesel generator? How much diesel fuel and/or propane can you store on a site? Are there rules regarding large batteries? Must such batteries live in an out building? I read far to many articles like this that conflate "off grid" with "primitive" living. It gives the false impression that people on off-grid properties somehow must sacrifice modern amenities and play dice with basic sanitation and health codes. They don't. Off grid properties are just as clean and healthy as any modern suburb.
- willvarfar 5y ago
  It’s an article on a website called “primitive survivor” and its aimed at its audience. Do start a help website called “big budget off grid” or something ;)
- maxerickson 5y ago
  I would be surprised if anywhere in the US didn't allow at least 1000 gallon propane tanks. At least, any somewhat rural location that would be sensible to take all the way off grid.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I am guessing there are about a thousand different answers to those questions depending upon where you live in the US, to say nothing about the rigor of the enforcement.

ranit 5y ago

> totally disconnected from all physical services Do they have mail or courier services?

sandworm101 5y ago
No. Not to the house. They have to go into town to get their mail/amazon deliveries, which is not an unusual situation in rural areas.
- geocrasher 5y ago
  Heck, I have to do that and I live in a small town on the main road only a mile from the post office!

m0ngr31 5y ago

Yep, I'm off grid (minus fiber internet), and you wouldn't be able to tell

sandworm101 5y ago
I can tell during power outages when everyone else's houses go dark.

lettergram 5y ago

I came here to say the same thing. In rural Tennessee literally zero people discuss regulations or care. I asked and I was laughed out of the room lol there’s a 180 year old cabin on the property and in the 90s someone put in some red neck engineering — using just a random set of barrels for a septic system. So somewhere near there is a barrel that’ll collapse one day. No idea where lol. The point of that story is, regulations aren’t reality in many of these places. They may be there but in reality... Finally, rules regarding collecting of rain water or lack of green energy incentives should decrease the off-grid ability lol. First, no one can regulate your collection of rain water. Second, lack of initiatives isn’t a law or regulation.

riversflow 5y ago
In rural California you'll get a notice that you can't live on your own property if you don't have an approved septic system registered with the county. I know multiple people who have had this happen to them in a couple of counties, and have heard about it in several others. I personally find it kinda lame you can't live in an RV on property you own. The septic system approval process involves soil sampling and engineering based on dwelling size (I can't remember if its area or number of bedrooms) in the counties I'm familiar with.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  California needs to lighten up on regulations. I like California. I have lived here my entire life, but the regulations/fees/fines are outrageous. I looked into buying some property years ago near Bolinas. I asked the Realator why it was so cheap. She said you can't build-- can't even set up a tent. You can't even take a nap on the land. He, "So what's it good for?". Her, "Maybe leech lines?". Want to build your cabin, or home. In my town, of San anselmo, the town council decides pretty much every aspect of your build down to window placement (Homeowner might see Karen naked if that window isn't higher. They even ok your roof type, wether you use stucco, or shiplap, and even the Petunias in your front yard. Neusom is trying, but ADU's are being used by rich people to gain more house footage. And there's a part of me that wants all building stopped until we figure out this water problem.

tlrobinson 5y ago

I would guess this article doesn’t cover wells and septic systems because they’re so common in rural and semi-rural areas. I doubt any states don’t allow them at all, and this only discusses state laws.

OldHand2018 5y ago

How deep are the water wells? I was told that the deeper the well, the more expensive everything gets, from the pumps to the filtration systems. My well is 200’ deep and I get great water with just a carbon+ozone chemical-free treatment system and a basic water softener. The bags of salt are only like $6 and I use maybe 2 per month.

sandworm101 5y ago
Wells are 100% determined by local conditions. In the pacific northwest you will hit water very quickly and find lots of it. Arsenic and other contaminants are an issue, but if you follow the health codes most people find perfectly good water strait out of the ground without treatment or even filtration. Whether your water is hard or soft depends on the nature of the rock your are drilling though. Most off grid houses these days opt for large holding tanks and a relatively small pump. There are some great well pumps specifically designed to run directly off of solar. No batteries or inverters required. I can recommend these pumps. I know of a couple that have been running for 10+ years off of solar without any issues. https://product-selection.grundfos.com/ca/products/sqflex https://product-selection.grundfos.com/ca/products/sqflex Find the local authority and get the water tested properly. And it doesn't hurt to "shock" your system with a bucket of bleach every few months.
- pa7ch 5y ago
  Could you explain this bleach process? Are you saying people add bleach to the well?
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    You add it to your storage tank (assuming you have one). Also done if you collect rainwater.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    Yes. I have personally done exactly that. When a well is first drilled it can have contamination from the drilling equipment. A few liters of chlorine bleach poured down the well kills everything. Holding tanks can also benefit from the occasional bleaching. You run the taps for a few hours and the diluted bleach passes through the system sanitizing everything along the way. It isn't really dangerous but you probably want to hold off on doing dark laundry during the process.

ridaj 5y ago

TBF, when I check out the overall blog, it is called "primal survivor", seems to cater primarily to the crowd that gets excited about digging one's own pit toilet with a portable shovel, and does happen to have a list of regulations relevant to that kind of off-the-grid living...

LatteLazy 5y ago

Forgive my ignorance but... If you have all those things and your kids spend all day playing Minecraft, are you really off grid? I thought the whole point of being off grid was to be more basic? If you live the same life as an on-grid people, why bother being off the grid?

inkblotuniverse 5y ago
To be off the grid - to be self-sufficient for electricity, water, etc. Depending on how remote you are, it might be the cheapest option. You can like that idea without wanting to 'return to nature'. People can like independence without buying in to any of the rest of your ideas...
sandworm101 5y ago
Try building a new house outside of a city. Look at how much it costs to run wires/pipes even a few hundred meters. Poles will cost to 10k each and you will be on the hook to maintain them. That it IF the local service has capacity for you. You might be asked to upgrade an entire service line. Today, for the same money, you can get a massive off-grid solar rig and never have to pay an electric bill.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

11235813213455 5y ago

Why are you presenting rainwater and compost toilets as negative / mediaval solutions? It's like criticizing a bicyle, They are perfect efficient solutions. If you eat organic food, your excrement is more or less fertilizer, no need to spend resources and energy treating them

CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
Isn't using human excrement as fertilizer a big no for food safety?
- giantg2 5y ago
  If properly handled/processed, it's ok. One consideration is what people are consuming to create it. For example, some medications are found in excrement. I don't know which, if any, can be taken up by plants. So this along with any other chemicals people flush would make me leary of using sewage from a sewer plant, but residential level systems have a lot more control over those inputs.
- op00to 5y ago
  Yes.
- foxhop 5y ago
  Proper decomposition and enough time renders the material safe for application to food crops (typically 1-2 years and applied to Perennial crops as "side dressing"). That said, you must separate humanure from safer waste which may be applied as crop dressing in as little as 18 days using hot composting methods. For more details checkout my YouTube channel: https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini https://youtube.com/c/RussellBallestrini An easy compost toilet is a bucket to poo into and woodchips or sawdust which is high carbon and soaks up smells and liquids, is layered after each use, emptied into a dedicated pile oftened tarped to control moisture.
- Litost 5y ago
  It's been a while since I've read the Humanure Handbook and I've not practiced many of the techniques in it but it does cover this topic in great detail: https://humanurehandbook.com/ https://humanurehandbook.com/ I believe it is possible you just have to be really careful with how it's treated, especially around vegetables etc. There's also a natural blackwater treatment system, briefly mentioned in this really great video from one of my favourite Permaculture teachers (EDIT: it's at 46:45), which also happens to be a great introduction to Permaculture if you're interested: https://vimeo.com/95060300 https://vimeo.com/95060300

tinus_hn 5y ago

> Their electricity cost during such times is literally zero Not very surprising considering you earlier claimed they were off-grid.

harvey9 5y ago
I think they mean there is not even an opportunity cost once batteries are full.
sandworm101 5y ago
Zero on the extra capacity after the batteries are full. That is power that would otherwise never be used/stored.

coldtea 5y ago

>The kids play minecraft with their friends while mom and dad stream netflix. Step into a modern off-grid house and you wouldn't see any differences. Well, if part of being off-grid pressuposes the existance of a huge global and domestic grid to fund, manufacture, transport, and sell you things like internet service, routers, Netflix shows, computer games, televisions, laptops, all kinds of electric and digital appliances, solar cells, batteries, and so on, trucks, factories and cargo ships to transport them, mines extracting resources to make them, the associated with the above waste disposal, even cities and businesses built around all these to support the people making those and their families (plus your own work, paid in regular currency to afford the aforementioned), I'm not sure how "off-grid" it really is... This "off grid" sure is not some Walden style affair. It just means "I buy and setup "renewable energy" units for my family's exclusive energy production and storage and have a self-owned shit disposal method, otherwise you couldn't tell mine from any other house in the area".

awolf 5y ago
yes we're talking about living in today's world but... off the grid. no one said "historical reenactment" ?
- MonkeyClub 5y ago
  This is definitely not "off the grid", except for very narrow definitions of the grid. Perhaps "somewhat eco friendly" would be a better designation, or "light on corporate resources" (with the exception of Internet and GP's longish list).
  - theptip 5y ago
    Isn’t the “grid” literally the electricity grid? But the phrase also can connote going completely out of contact, so it’s ambiguous.
    - salawat 5y ago
      Off "the grid" is more than off the utility grid. It implies a rejection of the globalized supply chain, and a return to subsistence consumption. If you can't make it, you don't have it. This also includes non-existence in the financial system, and the minimization of data footprint.

stakkur 5y ago

It seems like a fair summary of laws, not ‘dripping with assumptions’. And rainwater harvesting—something I’ve spent years doing and researching—is the most common ‘off grid’ practice. There’s a continuum of ‘off grid’ out there—most folks aren’t 100% disconnected from shared services.

dahart 5y ago

> Water comes from wells drilled deep into the ground. Sewage goes to the same septic fields […] A modern solar rig can generate so much energy Wait, this compendium of laws seems to cover all those things. Wells are ground-water, and there are many states with laws about how much ground-water you’re allowed to use. A septic field is part of a small grid, and has to be organized, zoned, and agreed to, and use by neighbors. And the article mentions off-grid solar is basically legal almost everywhere. What’s wrong with also including the laws about pit-toilets and rainwater collection in an article about off-grid laws?