9 ms·

Why? This comment is not about Berlin or Paris, it is mentioning then as examples of non English speaking cities. Is the author supposed to mention every city i

by jxcole 5y ago

Why? This comment is not about Berlin or Paris, it is mentioning then as examples of non English speaking cities. Is the author supposed to mention every city in Europe?

pbourke 5y ago
The Netherlands has the highest English proficiency in the world [0] (among non-native speaking countries) so I imagine it would be a compelling choice. [0] https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/ https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/
- eru 5y ago
  Yes, though still not quite as compelling, because you still have to speak Dutch eg at the playground.
  - zeorin 5y ago
    You really don't, unless you are a young child. At 10 I was already conversant in English.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    It's worth mentioning that I'm Ireland most schools teach in Irish, not English.
    - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
      That is 100% not true, the vast majority of schools in Ireland teach through English.
    - derekmcloughlin 5y ago
      That’s not true. The vast majority of schools (90%+) teach in English.
    - papower 5y ago
      Another Irish resident confirming that this statement is not true. Most schools teach in English and teach Irish as a second language. Irish is rarely used in normal day to day interactions and never at work unless you work in an Irish language related area or government department that supports Irish as an official language. There are some niche exceptions: - "All Irish" schools where you optionally learn through Irish - "Gaeltachts" which are pockets of Ireland where Irish is promoted and spoken. Even here the locals will happily switch to English if you prefer. I like Irish and wish it was more widely spoken as an everyday language but in reality you have to make an explicit effort to experience it.
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        Indeed I was living in the Gaeltacht (West of Galway). I didn't realise the number of Irish-spoken schools was so low in the rest of the country. My colleagues all said that all the good schools were Irish spoken (as in everything taught through Irish). I extrapolated this to the rest of the country which is clearly incorrect. Sorry. But I wasn't too much into this as I don't have any kids myself. If I did have kids I would have left Ireland anyway... At least in the area where I lived most schools were Catholic and I would never accept my child being raised with religious values. I wouldn't want to constantly have to deprogram them. In fact one of my colleagues had a child who was giving a presentation about the dinosaurs. His parents were called to the school and told off because this was a subject that could not be discussed because evolution was "unscientific" and they shouldn't spread this kind of "nonsense" to the other pupils. Another colleague was shunned for being a "lone parent". And this was actually a colleague who was living in Athlone, not in the Gaeltacht at all. So forgive me if I hold the Irish education system in low esteem :) Perhaps in Dublin it's better but I've only lived in the more remote areas.
    - IrishTeacher 5y ago
      You must be thinking of an area with an unusually high number of Gaelscoils! Speaking as a former Irish language teacher in a English speaking school in Ireland (now a software engineer in a tech multinational), I don't think most schools teach in Irish, not English. Perhaps you meant it the other way round? 2019 Irish Times: "Number of primary school pupils taught through Irish at record level". Article notes that Irish as primary language of education has risen from 6.4% in 2000 to 8.1% in 2018/19. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-primary-school-pupils-taught-through-irish-at-record-level-1.4011570 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-primary-... Repeated surveys have shown that secondary students taught through Irish have higher Irish language exam results, but not significantly lower English (or French, German, or Spanish) results. The vast majority of adults in Ireland cannot speak Irish fluently, or at all except for some school-learned phrases. It is not the common language of commerce. For anyone thinking of relocating to Ireland and confused by my comment or the school system, there is a difference between 'Irish is a subject everyone does in primary/secondary school' to 'Every subject is taught through Irish in schools'. In over 90% of schools, Irish is just one subject across 7 curriculum areas in primary: https://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum/ https://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum/ and one of 3 mandatory subjects at secondary (with English and Maths).
      - GekkePrutser 5y ago
        Oh ok, all my friends with kids had them in Irish-spoken schools. There were some English-spoken schools in the area I lived (Galway) but according to my friends all the good schools were in Irish. But indeed Galway is exceptionally focused on Irish. I didn't know the rest of the country was different. Sorry for that. I did notice that most Irish people have almost no grasp of the Irish language at all, which I found very weird because everyone is forced to learn it for many years (12 even according to one colleague)
    - lrem 5y ago
      Irish being the native language of Ireland is just barely more impactful than the native language of New York being Lenapese.
- rosywoozlechan 5y ago
  Do you think that this is widely known?
  - aserafini 5y ago
    It is, yes. And would be for anyone seriously researching where to base an international office.
- rtpg 5y ago
  But I mean… Ireland has a higher English proficiency? There are of course a lot of things doable fully in English. But when running a company not mastering the native language (even when all of the people you talk to speak English!) can be a big drawback.
  - ssb1 5y ago
    I'm willing to bet that an American would understand the English spoken in Amsterdam better than that spoken in pubs or on playgrounds in Ireland.
    - curation 5y ago
      Having lived in the Netherlands (Eindhoven - not even Amsterdam) I can confirm that the English spoken there was superior to the English I was raised in in rural Ontario where my teachers said "warshing" instead of washing. The Dutch have an incredibly faculty for language and I admire it.
      - consp 5y ago
        I will have to mention that this varies all over, especially the bit older generation (not exclusively though) also has some weird quirks language wise. So while they might speak and understand the English language quite well the are some parts missing. As an example I like to mention the phrasing of Bolkenstein (a Dutch National/EU politician) of economic handouts to people as "Golden showers". So while proficiency might be high, it's not always ... perfect.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        Digit-Al 5y ago
        To be fair, we in the UK often talk about the government giving us a golden shower as well. We do phrase it "slightly" differently though :-/
- bojangleslover 5y ago
  I'm Far more comfortable as a native English speaker in Amsterdam or Copenhagen than London or NYC.
  - Sebguer 5y ago
    Why?
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      There's a lot of weird accents here in the UK. Even cockney sounds odd, and that's local to London. In the same place you'll meet people from Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Scotland and so on, all with distinctive accents that are not so easy for your ordinary American or second language speaker.
      - blocked_again 5y ago
        Sure. But is it harder to understand than Dutch and Danish. No. Right. I also thought the same.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        But that happens with all languages, second language speakers only learn the high level standard, whereas natives use lots of variations.
      - dfawcus 5y ago
        Weird? Nah, but there is a lot of variation, and some of them can be difficult even for locals to understand. However most of us naturally switch to some variation of RP (or as heard on the BBC) while interacting with non locals. It has often been said that there is more variation in the way that English is spoken within the UK, than there is in the rest of the world. I once had an experience in the USA while sitting at a Restaurant bar and conversing with the barman. He eventually asked where I was from, presumably due to my manner of speech (in English). I then went through the rigmarole of asking him if he believed I was a native speaker, or knew it as a second language. He picked native, but was unable to enumerate the short list of countries where I was possibly from, and could not guess the answer. At no point did he try England. He was surprised when I eventually told him I was British, and from England. It seems too many folk in the US expect that all of us sound like Hugh Grant.
- aspaviento 5y ago
  It doesn't matter how well they speak English if the paperwork needs to be done in a different language.
- fartingflamingo 5y ago
  If language fluency would be the most important criterium - which it isn't-, the Dutch speaking 60% of Belgium are an even more logical choice. They're buried in that ranking below the less stellar English in the French speaking part of Belgium. Flemish people might be an even more logical choice for the EU. Similar English, Dutch and basic German fluency, plus with most uni educated people there, pretty decent French. And if you recruit me, you'll get fluent Latvian on top :-)
  - cpursley 5y ago
    Are Latvians still learning Russian these days as well? In Georgia I noticed a big difference between the older (Russian) and younger (English) in their second language skills.
    - fartingflamingo 5y ago
      This is getting fairly off topic, but since you ask... My impressions about people born in Latvia post-1991 are numerous, but obviously anecdotal: - Most native Latvian language speakers born in Latvia post-1991 will have low or non-existent Russian language skills, especially in the west (Kurzeme) or north. Very few native Russian speakers there. The situation in and around Riga is a little bit different. Try getting a customer-facing job in the private sector around Riga if you don't speak any Russian... My significant other is young and speaks Russian fluently by accident. Native Latvian language, but raised in a "Khrushchevka" (Soviet apartment block) full of native Russian speaking families. Playing with the other kids meant learning Russian... - Very very large differences amongst native Russian speaking youths in Latvia's three largest cities. A significant number hardly speak any Latvian. I've asked kids for directions that had trouble finding the words for "left" or "right". Which is somewhat surprising, given that officially, they're taking a significant part of their school in Latvian. Another group speaks both languages fluently. I've had chats over lunch with people I could hardly detect their native Russian background. - Surprisingly, _a lot_ of young people in both groups speak abysmally bad English too.
- marvel_boy 5y ago
  India in the 50th place? My company has Indian workers and they speak English very well.
  - nightcracker 5y ago
    I would guess that India is too large to meaningfully include in such a statistic. On average in the country English literacy could be quite poor while in the relevant tech hubs it is quite good. But that's just a hypothesis.
- tomp 5y ago
  As someone who recently moved from the UK to Switzerland, I can attest that "English proficiency" isn't the main issue - it probably helps (it would be even harder to move to Japan where I couldn't talk to pretty much anyone, nor read anything), but the main issue is bureaucracy - everything is in German - forms, contracts, etc. - and some foreign documents have to be translated (they sometimes accept English documents, at least).
- rbanffy 5y ago
  In what language are the laws written? That’s a non-trivial issue.
- jbergens 5y ago
  I think Sweden and Denmark has the same level. They seem to take turn on which is the highest with 0 1% or so difference. Of course, they are further to the north end of Europe and may as such be a less suitable choice.
rkuska 5y ago
Paris is not really much of English speaking city. (I travel to Paris often)
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  The French invented the term "Chauvinism" :) A big difference between the larger and smaller EU countries though is unrelated. The smallest countries don't have the budget for dubbing movies and TV series. This really helps with English proficiency in the smaller countries such as the Netherlands.
  - mattmanser 5y ago
    The Dutch are extremely proficient in English because they teach their children in it from 8 years old. And have been doing it since at least the 80s. So while what you're saying is technically true, a lot of shows were only subtitled instead of being dubbed, it is also factually false, that is not the main reason for the proficiency.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      No we haven't. I'm Dutch, I was in primary school in the 80s and I definitely didn't get English until I went to secondary school around the age of 12. I do think the subtitling really helps with proficiency though. School can only teach you so much. Consider Ireland where people get taught the Irish language for 12 years and hardly speak it. The understanding of different accents, slang, drunken conversation etc can only happen with exposure to native speakers. Content in the original language really helps with that.
    - oneepic 5y ago
      I don't speak it, but I'm told Dutch is very similar to English, at least grammatically.
      - mattmanser 5y ago
        It's not really. Half of English is Latin based, the other half is Germanic based. Dutch is a Germanic language so maybe that's where you're getting the idea from.
beberlei 5y ago
I believe the reason they mentioned it is that they have very large english speaking populations, famously a german conservative said he doesn't know if a person in a shop in Berlin can speak German or "only English".

by jxcole 5y ago

Why? This comment is not about Berlin or Paris, it is mentioning then as examples of non English speaking cities. Is the author supposed to mention every city in Europe?

pbourke 5y ago

The Netherlands has the highest English proficiency in the world [0] (among non-native speaking countries) so I imagine it would be a compelling choice. [0] https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/ https://www.ef.com/wwen/epi/

eru 5y ago
Yes, though still not quite as compelling, because you still have to speak Dutch eg at the playground.
- zeorin 5y ago
  You really don't, unless you are a young child. At 10 I was already conversant in English.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  It's worth mentioning that I'm Ireland most schools teach in Irish, not English.
  - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
    That is 100% not true, the vast majority of schools in Ireland teach through English.
  - derekmcloughlin 5y ago
    That’s not true. The vast majority of schools (90%+) teach in English.
  - papower 5y ago
    Another Irish resident confirming that this statement is not true. Most schools teach in English and teach Irish as a second language. Irish is rarely used in normal day to day interactions and never at work unless you work in an Irish language related area or government department that supports Irish as an official language. There are some niche exceptions: - "All Irish" schools where you optionally learn through Irish - "Gaeltachts" which are pockets of Ireland where Irish is promoted and spoken. Even here the locals will happily switch to English if you prefer. I like Irish and wish it was more widely spoken as an everyday language but in reality you have to make an explicit effort to experience it.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Indeed I was living in the Gaeltacht (West of Galway). I didn't realise the number of Irish-spoken schools was so low in the rest of the country. My colleagues all said that all the good schools were Irish spoken (as in everything taught through Irish). I extrapolated this to the rest of the country which is clearly incorrect. Sorry. But I wasn't too much into this as I don't have any kids myself. If I did have kids I would have left Ireland anyway... At least in the area where I lived most schools were Catholic and I would never accept my child being raised with religious values. I wouldn't want to constantly have to deprogram them. In fact one of my colleagues had a child who was giving a presentation about the dinosaurs. His parents were called to the school and told off because this was a subject that could not be discussed because evolution was "unscientific" and they shouldn't spread this kind of "nonsense" to the other pupils. Another colleague was shunned for being a "lone parent". And this was actually a colleague who was living in Athlone, not in the Gaeltacht at all. So forgive me if I hold the Irish education system in low esteem :) Perhaps in Dublin it's better but I've only lived in the more remote areas.
  - IrishTeacher 5y ago
    You must be thinking of an area with an unusually high number of Gaelscoils! Speaking as a former Irish language teacher in a English speaking school in Ireland (now a software engineer in a tech multinational), I don't think most schools teach in Irish, not English. Perhaps you meant it the other way round? 2019 Irish Times: "Number of primary school pupils taught through Irish at record level". Article notes that Irish as primary language of education has risen from 6.4% in 2000 to 8.1% in 2018/19. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-primary-school-pupils-taught-through-irish-at-record-level-1.4011570 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/number-of-primary-... Repeated surveys have shown that secondary students taught through Irish have higher Irish language exam results, but not significantly lower English (or French, German, or Spanish) results. The vast majority of adults in Ireland cannot speak Irish fluently, or at all except for some school-learned phrases. It is not the common language of commerce. For anyone thinking of relocating to Ireland and confused by my comment or the school system, there is a difference between 'Irish is a subject everyone does in primary/secondary school' to 'Every subject is taught through Irish in schools'. In over 90% of schools, Irish is just one subject across 7 curriculum areas in primary: https://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum/ https://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum/ and one of 3 mandatory subjects at secondary (with English and Maths).
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Oh ok, all my friends with kids had them in Irish-spoken schools. There were some English-spoken schools in the area I lived (Galway) but according to my friends all the good schools were in Irish. But indeed Galway is exceptionally focused on Irish. I didn't know the rest of the country was different. Sorry for that. I did notice that most Irish people have almost no grasp of the Irish language at all, which I found very weird because everyone is forced to learn it for many years (12 even according to one colleague)
  - lrem 5y ago
    Irish being the native language of Ireland is just barely more impactful than the native language of New York being Lenapese.
rosywoozlechan 5y ago
Do you think that this is widely known?
- aserafini 5y ago
  It is, yes. And would be for anyone seriously researching where to base an international office.
rtpg 5y ago
But I mean… Ireland has a higher English proficiency? There are of course a lot of things doable fully in English. But when running a company not mastering the native language (even when all of the people you talk to speak English!) can be a big drawback.
- ssb1 5y ago
  I'm willing to bet that an American would understand the English spoken in Amsterdam better than that spoken in pubs or on playgrounds in Ireland.
  - curation 5y ago
    Having lived in the Netherlands (Eindhoven - not even Amsterdam) I can confirm that the English spoken there was superior to the English I was raised in in rural Ontario where my teachers said "warshing" instead of washing. The Dutch have an incredibly faculty for language and I admire it.
    - consp 5y ago
      I will have to mention that this varies all over, especially the bit older generation (not exclusively though) also has some weird quirks language wise. So while they might speak and understand the English language quite well the are some parts missing. As an example I like to mention the phrasing of Bolkenstein (a Dutch National/EU politician) of economic handouts to people as "Golden showers". So while proficiency might be high, it's not always ... perfect.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - Digit-Al 5y ago
        To be fair, we in the UK often talk about the government giving us a golden shower as well. We do phrase it "slightly" differently though :-/
bojangleslover 5y ago
I'm Far more comfortable as a native English speaker in Amsterdam or Copenhagen than London or NYC.
- Sebguer 5y ago
  Why?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    There's a lot of weird accents here in the UK. Even cockney sounds odd, and that's local to London. In the same place you'll meet people from Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Scotland and so on, all with distinctive accents that are not so easy for your ordinary American or second language speaker.
    - blocked_again 5y ago
      Sure. But is it harder to understand than Dutch and Danish. No. Right. I also thought the same.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      But that happens with all languages, second language speakers only learn the high level standard, whereas natives use lots of variations.
    - dfawcus 5y ago
      Weird? Nah, but there is a lot of variation, and some of them can be difficult even for locals to understand. However most of us naturally switch to some variation of RP (or as heard on the BBC) while interacting with non locals. It has often been said that there is more variation in the way that English is spoken within the UK, than there is in the rest of the world. I once had an experience in the USA while sitting at a Restaurant bar and conversing with the barman. He eventually asked where I was from, presumably due to my manner of speech (in English). I then went through the rigmarole of asking him if he believed I was a native speaker, or knew it as a second language. He picked native, but was unable to enumerate the short list of countries where I was possibly from, and could not guess the answer. At no point did he try England. He was surprised when I eventually told him I was British, and from England. It seems too many folk in the US expect that all of us sound like Hugh Grant.
aspaviento 5y ago
It doesn't matter how well they speak English if the paperwork needs to be done in a different language.
fartingflamingo 5y ago
If language fluency would be the most important criterium - which it isn't-, the Dutch speaking 60% of Belgium are an even more logical choice. They're buried in that ranking below the less stellar English in the French speaking part of Belgium. Flemish people might be an even more logical choice for the EU. Similar English, Dutch and basic German fluency, plus with most uni educated people there, pretty decent French. And if you recruit me, you'll get fluent Latvian on top :-)
- cpursley 5y ago
  Are Latvians still learning Russian these days as well? In Georgia I noticed a big difference between the older (Russian) and younger (English) in their second language skills.
  - fartingflamingo 5y ago
    This is getting fairly off topic, but since you ask... My impressions about people born in Latvia post-1991 are numerous, but obviously anecdotal: - Most native Latvian language speakers born in Latvia post-1991 will have low or non-existent Russian language skills, especially in the west (Kurzeme) or north. Very few native Russian speakers there. The situation in and around Riga is a little bit different. Try getting a customer-facing job in the private sector around Riga if you don't speak any Russian... My significant other is young and speaks Russian fluently by accident. Native Latvian language, but raised in a "Khrushchevka" (Soviet apartment block) full of native Russian speaking families. Playing with the other kids meant learning Russian... - Very very large differences amongst native Russian speaking youths in Latvia's three largest cities. A significant number hardly speak any Latvian. I've asked kids for directions that had trouble finding the words for "left" or "right". Which is somewhat surprising, given that officially, they're taking a significant part of their school in Latvian. Another group speaks both languages fluently. I've had chats over lunch with people I could hardly detect their native Russian background. - Surprisingly, _a lot_ of young people in both groups speak abysmally bad English too.
marvel_boy 5y ago
India in the 50th place? My company has Indian workers and they speak English very well.
- nightcracker 5y ago
  I would guess that India is too large to meaningfully include in such a statistic. On average in the country English literacy could be quite poor while in the relevant tech hubs it is quite good. But that's just a hypothesis.
tomp 5y ago
As someone who recently moved from the UK to Switzerland, I can attest that "English proficiency" isn't the main issue - it probably helps (it would be even harder to move to Japan where I couldn't talk to pretty much anyone, nor read anything), but the main issue is bureaucracy - everything is in German - forms, contracts, etc. - and some foreign documents have to be translated (they sometimes accept English documents, at least).
rbanffy 5y ago
In what language are the laws written? That’s a non-trivial issue.
jbergens 5y ago
I think Sweden and Denmark has the same level. They seem to take turn on which is the highest with 0 1% or so difference. Of course, they are further to the north end of Europe and may as such be a less suitable choice.

rkuska 5y ago

Paris is not really much of English speaking city. (I travel to Paris often)

GekkePrutser 5y ago
The French invented the term "Chauvinism" :) A big difference between the larger and smaller EU countries though is unrelated. The smallest countries don't have the budget for dubbing movies and TV series. This really helps with English proficiency in the smaller countries such as the Netherlands.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  The Dutch are extremely proficient in English because they teach their children in it from 8 years old. And have been doing it since at least the 80s. So while what you're saying is technically true, a lot of shows were only subtitled instead of being dubbed, it is also factually false, that is not the main reason for the proficiency.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    No we haven't. I'm Dutch, I was in primary school in the 80s and I definitely didn't get English until I went to secondary school around the age of 12. I do think the subtitling really helps with proficiency though. School can only teach you so much. Consider Ireland where people get taught the Irish language for 12 years and hardly speak it. The understanding of different accents, slang, drunken conversation etc can only happen with exposure to native speakers. Content in the original language really helps with that.
  - oneepic 5y ago
    I don't speak it, but I'm told Dutch is very similar to English, at least grammatically.
    - mattmanser 5y ago
      It's not really. Half of English is Latin based, the other half is Germanic based. Dutch is a Germanic language so maybe that's where you're getting the idea from.

beberlei 5y ago

I believe the reason they mentioned it is that they have very large english speaking populations, famously a german conservative said he doesn't know if a person in a shop in Berlin can speak German or "only English".