11 ms·

Intel CEO Cites Brexit as Reason for Chip Fab Plans in UK Not an Option

94 points by WithinReason 5y ago

logronoide 5y ago
May be UK was not suitable for an Intel fab before Brexit, but what is relevant now is not even an option. Now think about any pan-European product or service and apply the same rule.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I'd say put it next to ASML but then the Netherlands has a bunch of environmentalist anti capitalist idiots right now who are hell bent on destroying the one thing that makes this country good: money.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Parent is probably talking about this : https://www.government.nl/topics/nature-and-biodiversity/natura-2000 https://www.government.nl/topics/nature-and-biodiversity/nat... The Netherlands was too greedy for Natura 2000 subsidies and now we can't build houses, need to shutdown farms etc because we would exceede Nitrogen levels. I also doubt a fab the size of Intel's would be feasible in the current climate(!).
  - Denvercoder9 5y ago
    > The Netherlands was too greedy for Natura 2000 subsidies and now we can't build houses, need to shutdown farms etc because we would exceede Nitrogen levels. The root cause there is that we had 20 years or so to get nitrogen (technically nitrogen oxides and ammonia) emissions under control, but instead of actually fixing it, the government tried all kind of paper tricks to make it seem as if less nitrogen was emitted. The courts finally shut that down in 2019, so now it's become an urgent problem.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      On paper.
notriskfree 5y ago
Makes sense if Intel was planning on manufacturing the processors for a regional market rather than for global export.
- Traster 5y ago
  Even for global export, the UK doesn't have the trade deals necessary to export globally.
  - ac2u 5y ago
    Unless they put the Fab in Northern Ireland.
    - throwaway10122 5y ago
      Northern Ireland is not stable, every single day both DUP and British Government threathen the peace there souce: im from Ireland, feel really sorry for any business wanting to setup there or are escaping the Brexit basketcase next door
      - ac2u 5y ago
        I live there. Peace is pretty stable. The political elements you talk about is mostly politicians posturing with weak hands that they dealt themselves. Most people are pretty damn happy that we're in a situation where business will be able to export to the UK and all of it's future trading partners AND the EU with all of its future partners without much friction. Granted, it hasn't all been smooth sailing, but the next election cycle here should provide a lot of clarity as to whether or not the place can become a great base to trade from.
        throwaway10122 5y ago
        I know, the problem is if you are a business from outside this island you are going to be spooked by all that nonsense Why would anyone setup shop in NI if they have no certainty that NI's unique access to UK and EU markets wont be shredded up by numpties who still think its the 17th century
ghostwriter 5y ago
Many VCs [1] and Hollywood [2] came to the opposite conclusion: [1] https://www.cityam.com/london-named-europes-best-startup-ecosystem-for-tech-firms-to-thrive/ https://www.cityam.com/london-named-europes-best-startup-eco... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44
- de_keyboard 5y ago
  That City A.M. link mentions Brexit once and negatively - that London is still a good place for start-ups despite Brexit. I wouldn't call that the opposite conclusion.
  - ghostwriter 5y ago
    > Start-ups in the UK raised the highest venture capital (VC) funding amount among all the European countries during January to July 2021. A total of 1,110 VC funding deals were announced in the UK during the period, while the disclosed funding value of these deals stood at USD16.4 billion, according to GlobalData. https://www.privateequitywire.co.uk/2021/08/25/305322/uk-based-start-ups-raise-usd164bn-vc-funding-during-january-july-2021-says https://www.privateequitywire.co.uk/2021/08/25/305322/uk-bas... UPD: some people seem to get offended so much when it comes to sheer numbers instead of a matter of opinions
    - croon 5y ago
      (Still) Raising the most VC funding is not the same as raising the most or more because of Brexit.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      this is a total non-sequitur given that London has always raised large amounts of VC money including pre-Brexit (quite naturally given that it's the largest city after Istanbul or Moscow in Europe, if you count those). if you want to judge the impact of Brexit you need to evaluate the UK's performance relative to its previous performance, it was always the largest single VC recipient in Europe. The continent has actually very rapidly caught up in terms of share of money raised over recent years. In 2020, VC funding in the UK only grew by 1.7% compared to 70% in Ireland, 25% in France, 11% in Germany, Scandinavia and so on. European share of the market is actually very quickly accelerating https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/hot-or-not-where-european-vc-funding-went-in-2020 https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/hot-or-not-where-europea... https://news.crunchbase.com/news/european-vc-funding-h1-2021/ https://news.crunchbase.com/news/european-vc-funding-h1-2021...
Traster 5y ago
I'm pretty skeptical that Intel would ever have put a fab in the UK. It would make far far more sense to either locate it in Ireland where they already have a fab and therefore the expertise, to put in somewhere like Germany where key partners like the car companies are (as well as Munich being a great area for engineering talent), or frankly to stick it whereever they get the biggest subsidies from. Even as part of the EU, there is very little going for the UK as a fab site for Intel.
- Loic 5y ago
  For semiconductors, Munich is not the best place to be in even if they have some talent. The best place at the moment in Germany[0] would be Dresden. [0]: In France, Grenoble could be a good place. Anyway, everywhere in the EU would be good for the world level balance.
- easytiger 5y ago
  Intel puts fabs wherever they can get massive tax breaks or incentives. That's how Ireland ended up with one with the long term commitment that gives them the ability to recognise all their EU sales in a low tax location
- LatteLazy 5y ago
  I agree, though UK governments have been historically very willing to give tax breaks etc to encourage these things (Sony in Wales for instance). I'd assume that would be the counter to your points...
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    Yeah Intel has built fabs in Israel and although it does have a very large and arguably very successful development center there it’s also a chicken and the egg so if you build it they will come… I can’t see a situation in which the UK couldn’t have made a sufficiently enticing proposition when it comes to pure commercials. That said I think the main factor here is that Intel is afraid of a protectionist EU policy as far as manufacturing IP goes with ASML being a Dutch company it puts the entire semi industry at the mercy of the EU if they do decide to push for a protectionist regime to bring back manufacturing closer to home. Many other European companies also play a key role in the industry such as Philips (a lot of material engineering and manufacturing techniques) and Carl Zeiss (who makes the extremely specialized lenses and optical assemblies for lithography particularly for UV processes). So whilst the EU doesn’t have manufacturing capacity especially when it comes to leading nodes they are in a better position to half the global production of advanced semi conductors and ICs than anyone else really.
mlindner 5y ago
Why would they put it in UK even before Brexit? Doesn't make any sense in the first place.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  Depressed "remoaner" here, with my opinions: * Prior to Brexit, I reckon the UK's main selling-point to US and Asian multinationals was that it's a perfect beachhead into mainland Europe, namely as everyone speaks English already, so localization (well, localisation) doesn't need to be a concern at-first, and allows companies to test-the-water by marketing locally in the British Isles before expanding into the rest of mainland Europe. * As the UK's regulatory environment was in the EU it meant that getting sign-off from British regulators (again: where language and cultural-barriers won't be an issue) is more straightforward as you don't need to seek regulatory approval in every EU country, only 1. * Extant supply of highly-qualified, if not world-leading, scientists, researchers and engineers and access to its higher-education system - and those researchers and engs would have included more of mainland Europe's best too due to greater academic collaboration within the EU. Post-Brexit: all the UK has is... speaking English, and that's it. Now non-EU companies need to seek regulatory approval in both the EU and UK - and the EU's market is considerably larger. ------ I reckon within a decade the UK will find some way to rejoin the more important parts of the EU in-all-but-name, including (possibly!) even joining Schengen to alleviate all of the issues with labour shortages, tourism, and the rest - as well as seeking de-jure regulatory alignment - because the UK is really not the super-desirable market the Daily Express likes to believe it is. I also sincerely believe the UK will also likely rejoin the EU proper - probably within a generation from now: the age demographics of the leave and remain demographics are stark - it's even been said if the Brexit referendum were held 2 years later then remain would have won simply because enough members of older generations (which lean heavily Leave) would have died off.
  - dudul 5y ago
    > if the Brexit referendum were held 2 years later then remain would have won simply because enough members of older generations (which lean heavily Leave) would have died off. Isn't it also possible that some remainers, a few years older, would have changed their mind?
throwaway4good 5y ago
Is that due to the subsidies the EU vs UK is willing to offer?
- danjac 5y ago
  More likely due to long-term export, supply chain and hiring issues.
  - cm2187 5y ago
    Or pressure from the EU
    - me_me_me 5y ago
      what pressure?
      - lispm 5y ago
        money
humps 5y ago
It's worth reading the BBC news article techpowerup's coverage is based upon, there's more detail. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599 "I have no idea whether we would have had a superior site from the UK," he said. "But we now have about 70 proposals for sites across Europe from maybe 10 different countries. "We're hopeful that we'll get to agreement on a site, as well as support from the EU... before the end of this year."
nikkinana 5y ago
Just an excuse for his failure. Has no problem with China though. Asshole.
mhh__ 5y ago
Thank god we saved those fisherman's jobs eh. Something feels very rotten about British society today.
- razakel 5y ago
  That would be the fish that they can't export and British people don't eat.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Shame they can't sell their produce to their clients anymore.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    You got what you asked for. They will get no sympathy from me. Sure they were lied and tricked but they are adults. If they spent a second thinking about potential fallout then maybe they would make a smarter decision.
    - rich_sasha 5y ago
      Haha I'm a remoaner to the bone and beyond, I'm not asking for sympathy, quietly enjoying schadenfreude while browsing sparse shop shelves. At least the army is delivering petrol now, so all good. Maybe they can man the abbatoirs too, and deliver the turkeys.
    - Lio 5y ago
      You make it sound like there was a 100% vote in favour of Brexit. That wasn’t the case, it was won with a small margin.
- drcongo 5y ago
  Yeah, but blue passports.
jl6 5y ago
I also wouldn’t want to make a huge $multi-billion commitment to a country still shaking out its new trade, labor, and regulatory environment. If Brexit becomes a permanent state of crisis, the UK will cease to attract inward investment. On the other hand, if what we are currently seeing is just the teething pains of the new order combined with the post-pandemic-supply-chain-reboot, then I expect the UK will return to being a known quantity and more or less business as usual.
- gibba999 5y ago
  Even without the crisis, what upside does the UK have over the EU proper? I feel like the UK was competitive when it was competing with European countries. Competing with countries in the EU? I just have no idea why anyone would invest in businesses there. It just feels like an inferior option, unless labor costs fall like a rock. I think over time, the deals the UK gets will get worse and worse, not just on investment, but on everything. It doesn't help that China still thinks of opium wars when the UK comes up, India things of the British Empire, and much of the rest of the world feels the same way. The UK was always respected, but never loved. If that respect goes away...

94 points by WithinReason 5y ago

May be UK was not suitable for an Intel fab before Brexit, but what is relevant now is not even an option. Now think about any pan-European product or service and apply the same rule.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

I'd say put it next to ASML but then the Netherlands has a bunch of environmentalist anti capitalist idiots right now who are hell bent on destroying the one thing that makes this country good: money.

the-dude 5y ago
Parent is probably talking about this : https://www.government.nl/topics/nature-and-biodiversity/natura-2000 https://www.government.nl/topics/nature-and-biodiversity/nat... The Netherlands was too greedy for Natura 2000 subsidies and now we can't build houses, need to shutdown farms etc because we would exceede Nitrogen levels. I also doubt a fab the size of Intel's would be feasible in the current climate(!).
- Denvercoder9 5y ago
  > The Netherlands was too greedy for Natura 2000 subsidies and now we can't build houses, need to shutdown farms etc because we would exceede Nitrogen levels. The root cause there is that we had 20 years or so to get nitrogen (technically nitrogen oxides and ammonia) emissions under control, but instead of actually fixing it, the government tried all kind of paper tricks to make it seem as if less nitrogen was emitted. The courts finally shut that down in 2019, so now it's become an urgent problem.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    On paper.

notriskfree 5y ago

Makes sense if Intel was planning on manufacturing the processors for a regional market rather than for global export.

Traster 5y ago
Even for global export, the UK doesn't have the trade deals necessary to export globally.
- ac2u 5y ago
  Unless they put the Fab in Northern Ireland.
  - throwaway10122 5y ago
    Northern Ireland is not stable, every single day both DUP and British Government threathen the peace there souce: im from Ireland, feel really sorry for any business wanting to setup there or are escaping the Brexit basketcase next door
    - ac2u 5y ago
      I live there. Peace is pretty stable. The political elements you talk about is mostly politicians posturing with weak hands that they dealt themselves. Most people are pretty damn happy that we're in a situation where business will be able to export to the UK and all of it's future trading partners AND the EU with all of its future partners without much friction. Granted, it hasn't all been smooth sailing, but the next election cycle here should provide a lot of clarity as to whether or not the place can become a great base to trade from.
      - throwaway10122 5y ago
        I know, the problem is if you are a business from outside this island you are going to be spooked by all that nonsense Why would anyone setup shop in NI if they have no certainty that NI's unique access to UK and EU markets wont be shredded up by numpties who still think its the 17th century

ghostwriter 5y ago

Many VCs [1] and Hollywood [2] came to the opposite conclusion: [1] https://www.cityam.com/london-named-europes-best-startup-ecosystem-for-tech-firms-to-thrive/ https://www.cityam.com/london-named-europes-best-startup-eco... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44

de_keyboard 5y ago
That City A.M. link mentions Brexit once and negatively - that London is still a good place for start-ups despite Brexit. I wouldn't call that the opposite conclusion.
- ghostwriter 5y ago
  > Start-ups in the UK raised the highest venture capital (VC) funding amount among all the European countries during January to July 2021. A total of 1,110 VC funding deals were announced in the UK during the period, while the disclosed funding value of these deals stood at USD16.4 billion, according to GlobalData. https://www.privateequitywire.co.uk/2021/08/25/305322/uk-based-start-ups-raise-usd164bn-vc-funding-during-january-july-2021-says https://www.privateequitywire.co.uk/2021/08/25/305322/uk-bas... UPD: some people seem to get offended so much when it comes to sheer numbers instead of a matter of opinions
  - croon 5y ago
    (Still) Raising the most VC funding is not the same as raising the most or more because of Brexit.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    this is a total non-sequitur given that London has always raised large amounts of VC money including pre-Brexit (quite naturally given that it's the largest city after Istanbul or Moscow in Europe, if you count those). if you want to judge the impact of Brexit you need to evaluate the UK's performance relative to its previous performance, it was always the largest single VC recipient in Europe. The continent has actually very rapidly caught up in terms of share of money raised over recent years. In 2020, VC funding in the UK only grew by 1.7% compared to 70% in Ireland, 25% in France, 11% in Germany, Scandinavia and so on. European share of the market is actually very quickly accelerating https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/hot-or-not-where-european-vc-funding-went-in-2020 https://pitchbook.com/news/articles/hot-or-not-where-europea... https://news.crunchbase.com/news/european-vc-funding-h1-2021/ https://news.crunchbase.com/news/european-vc-funding-h1-2021...

Traster 5y ago

I'm pretty skeptical that Intel would ever have put a fab in the UK. It would make far far more sense to either locate it in Ireland where they already have a fab and therefore the expertise, to put in somewhere like Germany where key partners like the car companies are (as well as Munich being a great area for engineering talent), or frankly to stick it whereever they get the biggest subsidies from. Even as part of the EU, there is very little going for the UK as a fab site for Intel.

Loic 5y ago
For semiconductors, Munich is not the best place to be in even if they have some talent. The best place at the moment in Germany[0] would be Dresden. [0]: In France, Grenoble could be a good place. Anyway, everywhere in the EU would be good for the world level balance.
easytiger 5y ago
Intel puts fabs wherever they can get massive tax breaks or incentives. That's how Ireland ended up with one with the long term commitment that gives them the ability to recognise all their EU sales in a low tax location
LatteLazy 5y ago
I agree, though UK governments have been historically very willing to give tax breaks etc to encourage these things (Sony in Wales for instance). I'd assume that would be the counter to your points...
- dogma1138 5y ago
  Yeah Intel has built fabs in Israel and although it does have a very large and arguably very successful development center there it’s also a chicken and the egg so if you build it they will come… I can’t see a situation in which the UK couldn’t have made a sufficiently enticing proposition when it comes to pure commercials. That said I think the main factor here is that Intel is afraid of a protectionist EU policy as far as manufacturing IP goes with ASML being a Dutch company it puts the entire semi industry at the mercy of the EU if they do decide to push for a protectionist regime to bring back manufacturing closer to home. Many other European companies also play a key role in the industry such as Philips (a lot of material engineering and manufacturing techniques) and Carl Zeiss (who makes the extremely specialized lenses and optical assemblies for lithography particularly for UV processes). So whilst the EU doesn’t have manufacturing capacity especially when it comes to leading nodes they are in a better position to half the global production of advanced semi conductors and ICs than anyone else really.

mlindner 5y ago

Why would they put it in UK even before Brexit? Doesn't make any sense in the first place.

DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
Depressed "remoaner" here, with my opinions: * Prior to Brexit, I reckon the UK's main selling-point to US and Asian multinationals was that it's a perfect beachhead into mainland Europe, namely as everyone speaks English already, so localization (well, localisation) doesn't need to be a concern at-first, and allows companies to test-the-water by marketing locally in the British Isles before expanding into the rest of mainland Europe. * As the UK's regulatory environment was in the EU it meant that getting sign-off from British regulators (again: where language and cultural-barriers won't be an issue) is more straightforward as you don't need to seek regulatory approval in every EU country, only 1. * Extant supply of highly-qualified, if not world-leading, scientists, researchers and engineers and access to its higher-education system - and those researchers and engs would have included more of mainland Europe's best too due to greater academic collaboration within the EU. Post-Brexit: all the UK has is... speaking English, and that's it. Now non-EU companies need to seek regulatory approval in both the EU and UK - and the EU's market is considerably larger. ------ I reckon within a decade the UK will find some way to rejoin the more important parts of the EU in-all-but-name, including (possibly!) even joining Schengen to alleviate all of the issues with labour shortages, tourism, and the rest - as well as seeking de-jure regulatory alignment - because the UK is really not the super-desirable market the Daily Express likes to believe it is. I also sincerely believe the UK will also likely rejoin the EU proper - probably within a generation from now: the age demographics of the leave and remain demographics are stark - it's even been said if the Brexit referendum were held 2 years later then remain would have won simply because enough members of older generations (which lean heavily Leave) would have died off.
- dudul 5y ago
  > if the Brexit referendum were held 2 years later then remain would have won simply because enough members of older generations (which lean heavily Leave) would have died off. Isn't it also possible that some remainers, a few years older, would have changed their mind?

throwaway4good 5y ago

Is that due to the subsidies the EU vs UK is willing to offer?

danjac 5y ago
More likely due to long-term export, supply chain and hiring issues.
- cm2187 5y ago
  Or pressure from the EU
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    what pressure?
    - lispm 5y ago
      money

humps 5y ago

It's worth reading the BBC news article techpowerup's coverage is based upon, there's more detail. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599 "I have no idea whether we would have had a superior site from the UK," he said. "But we now have about 70 proposals for sites across Europe from maybe 10 different countries. "We're hopeful that we'll get to agreement on a site, as well as support from the EU... before the end of this year."

nikkinana 5y ago

Just an excuse for his failure. Has no problem with China though. Asshole.

mhh__ 5y ago

Thank god we saved those fisherman's jobs eh. Something feels very rotten about British society today.

razakel 5y ago
That would be the fish that they can't export and British people don't eat.
rich_sasha 5y ago
Shame they can't sell their produce to their clients anymore.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  You got what you asked for. They will get no sympathy from me. Sure they were lied and tricked but they are adults. If they spent a second thinking about potential fallout then maybe they would make a smarter decision.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Haha I'm a remoaner to the bone and beyond, I'm not asking for sympathy, quietly enjoying schadenfreude while browsing sparse shop shelves. At least the army is delivering petrol now, so all good. Maybe they can man the abbatoirs too, and deliver the turkeys.
  - Lio 5y ago
    You make it sound like there was a 100% vote in favour of Brexit. That wasn’t the case, it was won with a small margin.
drcongo 5y ago
Yeah, but blue passports.

jl6 5y ago

I also wouldn’t want to make a huge $multi-billion commitment to a country still shaking out its new trade, labor, and regulatory environment. If Brexit becomes a permanent state of crisis, the UK will cease to attract inward investment. On the other hand, if what we are currently seeing is just the teething pains of the new order combined with the post-pandemic-supply-chain-reboot, then I expect the UK will return to being a known quantity and more or less business as usual.

gibba999 5y ago
Even without the crisis, what upside does the UK have over the EU proper? I feel like the UK was competitive when it was competing with European countries. Competing with countries in the EU? I just have no idea why anyone would invest in businesses there. It just feels like an inferior option, unless labor costs fall like a rock. I think over time, the deals the UK gets will get worse and worse, not just on investment, but on everything. It doesn't help that China still thinks of opium wars when the UK comes up, India things of the British Empire, and much of the rest of the world feels the same way. The UK was always respected, but never loved. If that respect goes away...