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Twitch Hack of 135 GB of Data Includes How Much Its Biggest Streamers Make

• janandonly 5y ago
  I lament the fact that we need hacks like these to know who makes how much money. In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness. It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia
  • willcipriano 5y ago
    I always heard that salary data was available in Norway but high end streamers are probably running these funds through a corporation. Does Norway have essentially open books for firms?
    • krobbn 5y ago
      Getting a persons private salary is slightly more arduous thank looking at the income of companies. That can easily be found on a site like proff.no
    • Ekaros 5y ago
      For Finland capital income is included in public data. As such doesn't really matter if it is paid as dividends or wage. Ofc, if you hold it in it is bit more complicated, but even then some data can be gotten.
  • warent 5y ago
    From my perspective, in American culture very few people are mature enough to handle discussing income without feeling a hugely inflated ego or completely inferior to their peers. (Maybe true elsewhere but I can't speak to those places!) The reason it's kept secret is because people can't help but turn it into the proverbial dick measuring or whatever is a more polite way of putting it. As for the American Dream, it still strikes me as integral the American Dream, I think you just have a different idea of how you wish it was. EDIT: Also from what I've heard anecdotally, Americans are actually more open about money than most other countries, especially Scandinavian ones.
    • chrsig 5y ago
      I don't think it's really fair to reduce it to dick measuring when there's just a ridiculously enormous class divide.
      • ehutch79 5y ago
        Or both. It can be both.
      • FredPret 5y ago
        The dicks will mostly be compared within classes, if at all. It’s not going to be decamillionaires and thousandaires comparing notes on the golf course.
      • mrep 5y ago
        All my friends have STEM or business degrees and I'm pretty sure I make 2-6x more than every one of them because I work at a top paying software company. I don't want to talk about that.
        • andy_jensen 5y ago
          The notion that you earn 6 times more than your peers is also absurd. You dont work 6 times as hard/much and your time isn't 6 times more valuable than your friends. In my ideal world everyone made the same amount of money since we are all equal. Then you would get your software degree to avoid collecting garbage or wiping old people in a nursery home. Now think of CEO's making 100x other people
          • warent 5y ago
            I have a communist buddy who runs a profit pool with like 4 other people where they share an office doing different (often unrelated) work and combine/evenly distribute all of their income/paychecks. Ever since meeting him, I'm automatically skeptical that most people are just reciting platitudes without much real belief behind it.
          • 5y ago
  • 0xy 5y ago
    The UK forces private companies to share some high level financial information publicly on Companies House. As a non-UK company, I can spy on my UK competitors' finances while they cannot spy on mine. Insanity. And given how the average person experiences jealousy, I wouldn't want salaries to be public. I already feel uncomfortable when family members ask me how much money I make, because I know they'd only use it to compare themselves to. This kind of comparison is toxic in society.
    • stzsch 5y ago
      > This kind of comparison is toxic in society. I would imagine that the change, especially overnight, would be quite toxic. But given enough time for the population to adapt, maybe it wouldn't be a problem anymore? Just like it (supposedly) isn't in Norway?
  • mywittyname 5y ago
    I'd prefer to keep my finances private, thanks. No good can come from nosey-ass family members, scammers, sales people, etc knowing this kind of information. It doesn't fight against tax evasion or anything, because the wealthy of the world will have yet another incentive to mask their income / assets through any of the number of mechanisms currently available. If you want pay transparency to fight pay inequality, then anonymized pay based on role / job title should suffice. Any legitimate need for such information can either be obtained through asking, or through the courts. At least then, I have a say in the matter and a right to defend myself in cases where I believe it necessary. People are entitled to privacy. I wouldn't want random people knowing my salary anymore than I'd want them knowing what medications I take.
    • celticninja 5y ago
      Imagine not trusting your family with knowing how much you earn.
      • pengaru 5y ago
        Imagine being this ignorant about people.
      • yamazakiwi 5y ago
        Must be nice to assume it's difficult for people to imagine. Are you a minor? There are many people without trusting families...
      • hunter-gatherer 5y ago
        I agree with the others here. unfortunately for a lot of people it is not something they have to imagine. I don't support the down votes though. I think your comment brings an important issue front and center.
      • edoceo 5y ago
        My family is, perhaps "interesting", so it's not hard to imagine at all. Just cause they're blood doesn't mean they're good.
      • 5y ago
  • adventured 5y ago
    > It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia It should strike you as weird, because that's false. The American Dream can be best lived by Scandinavians in the US. Scandinavians do better in the US than they do in Scandinavia and that has been true for the past century. Among the US population, people from Scandinavia and or of Scandinavian descent produce exceptional outcomes. Comparing primary demographics to primary demographics, white Americans are richer than white Scandinavians at both the median and average. They have higher incomes and greater wealth. And Scandinavians in the US are far richer than Scandinavians in Scandinavia, at both the median and average. If Scandinavia is so great, how come their people do so much better here and always have? Scandinavian culture + the US system = vastly superior outcome.
    • tyingq 5y ago
      It is hard to compare the two, since a Scandinavian emigrating to the US is an outlier in that they have the resources to do so.
    • ch4s3 5y ago
      The same is true if you look at Somali refugee families which spilt up and go to both Sweden and the US. The US branch of the families integrate faster, earn more, attain higher levels of education, and have fewer encounters with law enforcement. The last point should really surprise many Americans. Interestingly, Minneapolis, where virtually all Somali-Americans live has strong Scandinavian roots.
    • acchow 5y ago
      > And Scandinavians in the US are far richer than Scandinavians in Scandinavia, at both the median and average. The Scandinavians immigrating to the US are not a random sampling of Scandinavians. Getting a visa to live in the US usually requires a high-paying job. Usually of high skill or of exceptional talent. Basically the US work visa system selects for the cream of the crop.
      • FredPret 5y ago
        Yes but OP also says that the average white American (vast majority born in-country) does better than the average white Scandinavian.
  • Veen 5y ago
    What business is it of yours what other people are paid? I can't begin to understand why you would want to know, still less why you think you have a right to know.
  • trixie_ 5y ago
    A good portion of the United States is against any sort of identification system in general. It’s why voting is so complicated. Some kind open income system in unfathomable to the vast majority of Americans.
    • celticninja 5y ago
      So are a lot of things that the rest of the world do, but the rest of the world keep on doing them and they work just fine. Almost like the issue isn't the 'thing' being done, but the people.
      • zo1 5y ago
        Almost like humans will endure and do anything to just be left alone to live their lives. Just because it "works just fine" doesn't mean it's what people want, nor does it mean that it's the ideal for that set of humans. Hey, here's a thought, let people pick if they want their salary public and attached to them.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • ta1234567890 5y ago
      Which is pretty ridiculous given that everyone needs a social security number, and then if you ever want to rent or buy a place you need a credit score. Then if you want to travel abroad you need a passport. And if you use google, social media or a cell phone, or pretty much just anything online, you are going to get tracked. All of these systems and organizations have already identified you, or they’ll easily do it when needed. Not having a universal-nation-wide identification system only makes it worse for everyone.
      • bee_rider 5y ago
        It is pretty annoying -- to sign on to the IRS's system you pretty much need an existing debt to some private company (student loans [but not NELNET!], credit card, mortgage, etc). Apparently we can't have a government run identification service so we have to hack one out of random information from private companies.
  • plandis 5y ago
    I’d be absolutely willing to bet your average American would not classify giving up their right to privacy as part of the American dream.
  • duxup 5y ago
    I'm not sure it should matter / I should have access to whatever financial transactions take place between someone and twitch and their audience... Generally I'd respect those folks rights to have that info remain private. They can always share if they want.
  • whalesalad 5y ago
    The irony here is that the true American Dream is less oversight, less governance, less laws, less restraint, and more freedom/trust. Most Americans just want to live and let live.
    • bradlys 5y ago
      > Most Americans just want to live and let live. As long as certain other people are never near them. It’s really not a live and let live kind of place.
  • FredPret 5y ago
    Scandinavia, while not exactly a nightmare, seems like the opposite of the American dream to me. In Scandinavia, you have the radical lack of privacy you just mentioned as a feature (!!!) as well as eye-watering taxes. Now, in the States, the government spies on you, but at least they don’t publish their findings.
    • Ekaros 5y ago
      On other hand we have other sorts of privacy. Like secrecy of correspondence meaning that for example my employer can't look at my mail without extremely good reason. Even with my employer my emails are mine and only mine.
      • FredPret 5y ago
        While that is a very good thing, I'll take lower taxes over that any day. Every 1% of taxes you save compounds mightily over a lifetime's stock market investing. Full disclosure: I live in neither Scandinavia nor the States.
    • coliveira 5y ago
      If everyone is paying the same taxes, this suddenly is not a problem! It really is a problem only when some people pay a lot of taxes and others pay close to nothing.
      • FredPret 5y ago
        You mean like how the top 10% pays 71% of the taxes and the bottom 10% are net receivers of government money?
        • i_haz_rabies 5y ago
          That seems like it lands in the distribution ballpark the comment above was referring to, yes. The poorest 10% not paying very much in taxes is a feature of the system. And assuming your figures are correct, that 71% might look like a lot until you consider that the marginal tax rate for the very rich is very, very low in the United States compared to other developed countries, or even the United States prior to the Reagan administration.
  • ravitation 5y ago
    You're getting a bunch of replies about different interpretations of the "American Dream" - interpretations that are not at all consistent with either the mainstream concept or the historical one. Typically the "American Dream" has been centrally about freedom of opportunity, independent of social class or circumstances of birth, and the resulting possibility for upward social mobility through hard work (e.g. America as the Land of Opportunity). I think it's quite hard to argue that the United States is a leader in this category in the same way that it was 50 or 100 years ago.
    • actusual 5y ago
      Who would be in first here? As an aside (mostly to add some perspective around Scandinavian comments), my Swedish friend moved to America and became a citizen exactly for this version of the American dream. As far as he's concerned, it's FAR more difficult to become wealthy in Sweden.
      • ravitation 5y ago
        Well, the main issue here is social mobility - most importantly escaping poverty and becoming middle class (and also not falling back into poverty), not just becoming wealthy. As has been stated elsewhere in these comments, there is enormous selection bias regarding those that choose to immigrate to the US from other developed countries in an effort to "become wealthy." With this in mind, generally speaking the US does not do particularly well on social mobility in relation to most other developed country, this includes the Scandinavian countries, the other anglophone countries, and western/central European countries... And, honestly, it really should surprise no one that social programs (including things like high quality public/affordable education and universal healthcare) improve social mobility for the poorer half of society.
  • 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    I wonder how pay transparency impacts the variance of job-to-job and industry-to-industry pay. If you hear that you can make a bunch more by changing jobs, you're more likely to, forcing the industry to keep up and pay more. Does more pay transparency reduct some kind of "friction" in the market reaching equilibrium?
  • da_chicken 5y ago
    > In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. Many things make sense for a largely homogenous nation of 5.5 million that stop making sense for a largely heterogenous nation of 330 million.
    • NoPicklez 5y ago
      I've heard people from the US use this term for too many things. The "but we're different" narrative doesn't suffice.
  • KronisLV 5y ago
    You know, it's pretty eye opening, to see that many streamers make millions in just a few months, while it would take me more than 50 years of constant work in my country to make a single million. Though looking at the top earners is probably very demoralizing if you don't also see the median and average figures, which i'm curious to see. Someone actually did a writeup of some of their personal findings, though i'm sure that we'll see more in the following weeks: https://sizeof.cat/post/twitch-leaks/ https://sizeof.cat/post/twitch-leaks/ Of course, i can also understand that those with a lot of money probably don't want others to know how much they make, while those that are making less money sometimes don't want to be confronted with the truth because it's so depressing. Regardless, if nothing else, it's educational to see things like these and have them become a piece of humanity's history.
  • Barrin92 5y ago
    Privacy is, contrary to much discourse particular on HN or the tech circles in general, primarily a tool for the powerful. (this is why crypto-anything has always interested libertarians moire than everyone else, they correctly recognize that it is a tool to escape (fiscal) authority). Transparency and expansion of the public sphere generally has equalizing effects, expansion of the private sphere the opposite. This is I think relevant in particular for people in the US who seek to emulate Scandinavia, because they ironically seem to be some of the biggest opponents to anything that conjures up notions of 'surveillance'.
  • lijogdfljk 5y ago
    Out of curiosity, how difficult is it to migrate to Scandinavia as an American? I've long felt the ideals i cherish as an American are just not the ideals of America. Maybe America isn't wrong, i'm just not American. I want: A country which values it's citizens health and happiness in measurable, quantifiable ways. A country which ensures it's citizens can be educated and follow their passions to financial success. A country which allows even poor citizens to take risks like opening a business or going to school _(if you can call that a risk)_ without going into crippling debt or becoming homeless if you fail. A country where a health emergency won't leave middle class workers in crippling debt. A country where a job is enough to ensure you can have a roof over your head and food on the table. Scandinavia may or may not match all of those, but that's not my point - it feels to me Americans don't want this. To me Americans value "freedom" (as ephemeral as that may be) and low taxes so heavily that the above items are nearly irrelevant if they conflict with that. This isn't a dig at America, rather i'm simply saying maybe i need to stop voting so "lefty" and find some place more inline with myself?
    • ravitation 5y ago
      While I think Scandinavia might be ideal, one need not limit oneself to only those countries. Essentially all other developed nations are noticeably better at providing the things you've listed to the majority of their citizens than the United States.
    • oh_sigh 5y ago
      If you can easily migrate to Scandinavia from America, then you are almost certainly a well educated, talented, wealthy American who will not be subject to any of the vagaries of life that poor Americans may need to deal with. Healthcare, education, housing, and lifestyle are all top notch for the set of Americans that can easily emigrate to other first-world countries. In fact, you will find that it is much more common for people with high levels of education or marketable skills to migrate to the US, versus those people migrating from the US to whatever country.
      • lijogdfljk 5y ago
        > If you can easily migrate to Scandinavia from America, then you are almost certainly a well educated, talented, wealthy American who will not be subject to any of the vagaries of life that poor Americans may need to deal with. Healthcare, education, housing, and lifestyle are all top notch for the set of Americans that can easily emigrate to other first-world countries. I maybe am. No formal education, but self taught and we live very comfortably. However this isn't about "me". I want a country that feels like it's trying to do better for all. America seems very selfish to me. I want to aid and support a government that actively works towards the bullet points i mentioned, not against.
  • gmadsen 5y ago
    I think that takes a fundamentally different society than the US to work. There are many many have-nots in the US and public knowledge like this would put legitimate threat of harm on many people.
  • 908B64B197 5y ago
    > In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness. That just means the very rich need more creative accountants. "See I don't own the jet, per se, I just own a majority of shares in a corporation headquartered in Cyprus that owns said asset" > It always struck me as weird that the American Dream can best be lived in Scandinavia I don't think the American Dream is really compatible with Janteloven https://www.lifeinnorway.net/what-exactly-is-janteloven/ https://www.lifeinnorway.net/what-exactly-is-janteloven/
  • oh_sigh 5y ago
    Why do you need to know how much money a random streamer makes?
  • bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    >In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness. Given that one strategy for businesses is to optimize monetary intake by tailoring prices to how much specific customers can pay and often this tailoring is facilitated by stuff like checking if you are using an iphone or an android phone etc. etc. - if you use your name and address to login to a service and you are from Norway could they look up how much money you make and more precisely tailor their prices for what you are able to pay? If so, boy, that letting people know exactly how much money you have thing is great.
  • dlisboa 5y ago
    > In countries like Norway, that kind of data is publicly available. It makes for less second-guessing and less suspiciousness. It might work in Norway where there is basically zero violent crime, but in many parts of the world outing yourself as a millionaire is a great way to get yourself or your family kidnapped.
  • tinus_hn 5y ago
    The American Dream of being a busybody bothering themselves with the finances of others.
• yellow_lead 5y ago
  The torrent is here if anyone wants to take a peek (for research / meta data purposes only of course) magnet:?xt=urn:btih:N5BLZ6XECNEHHARHJOVQAS4W7TWRXCSI&dn=twitch-leaks-part-one&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.stealth.si%3A80%2Fannounce
  • agumonkey 5y ago
    I wish I could get a sneak peak of their code, not the whole dataset. For sweng curiosity sake.
  • Wingy 5y ago
    Be careful with this, they're probably watching peer lists, AFAIK it's illegal to download stolen data but IANAL.
    • Someone1234 5y ago
      > it's illegal to download stolen data It is illegal to initially steal data. But can you clarify which law would be violated by downloading it? And by "illegal" do you mean civil or criminal law?
      • causi 5y ago
        Copyright law, just at a baseline.
        • Someone1234 5y ago
          Copyright may be violated by uploading (rather than downloading), but even then Twitch would need to show that you caused them monetary damages and sue you in a civil court. I'm not sure what "at a baseline" means. If you know of other specific legal violations then name them, so we can discuss it.
          • wongarsu 5y ago
            With torrents, every downloader is also uploading data, that's the point of torrents. You could theoretically configure your client with an upload cap of 0, but good luck proofing in court that you did that.
• tda 5y ago
  And someone was really quick to make this: https://www.twitchearnings.com/ https://www.twitchearnings.com/
  • Mikeb85 5y ago
    Didn't scroll that far but there's over 1000 streamers making 6 figures. I'm surprised.
    • ravitation 5y ago
      Well there are over 1000 streamers making 6 figures over two years, there's just under 1000 streamers averaging over 6 figures a year (from only Twitch, i.e. excluding things like sponsorships and donations).
    • TAForObvReasons 5y ago
      Amazon is buoying the ecosystem. Amazon Prime used to include (and maybe still includes) Amazon Prime Gaming (https://gaming.amazon.com/intro https://gaming.amazon.com/intro). One of the perks: > Use your free channel subscription ($4.99 value) every month to support your favorite streamers There are over 100M prime subscribers, and let's suppose 3% of them use the benefit to support streamers. That's at least $15M/mo Amazon is throwing into the ecosystem. Given a pareto distribution of revenue, it's no surprise that 1000 streamers are clearing 10K/mo
    • brundolf 5y ago
      I'm surprised it's that few
  • ssalka 5y ago
    I expected to see Ninja at #1, surprised he is #46
    • nfRfqX5n 5y ago
      it's only data from the last 2.5 years and paid out by twitch. he made a massive sum from microsoft when switching to their platform
• cyberpsybin 5y ago
  Even the sub 1k streamers make way more than I imagined.
  • codezero 5y ago
    Yep! Several that I watch that only draw about 300-500 viewers in a session have taken in > six figures. Even over two years that's a heck of a supplementary income (they both have day jobs afaik from their commentary)
• winternett 5y ago
  Yet somehow the majority of streamers on the platform make absolutely nothing... Wealth inequality is underlying in "creator fund" money making as well. The algorithms are skewed towards people that are already rich, popular, and/or well connected. The few people that make it up the ladder from humble beginnings might well be people who were let in to cover the real underpinnings of non-transparent creator economies. Those few "came up from nothing" success stories may literally well be false encouragement or fabrication just to keep platform engagement and related consumerism up. Kind of like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch. What you choose to support and invest in matters too.
  • jollybean 5y ago
    This is really an upside down take. 1) The skill/ability curve is going to look really consistent with the earnings curve, just like in anything, similar to sports. 2) 'Creators fund' is marginal - having a few extra dollars for a microphone is not going to bring in more viewers for a stream. Far from 'false economy' it's probably something akin to very efficient. If there is inefficiency, it's about who is highlighted by the platform. 3) Barriers to entry are very low, and every joe blow is nipping at the heels of established streamers, many of whom have spent a long time building their audiences. 4) This should be thought of more like athleticism: it's popularity, brand, personality and skill, it's populist and short-lived, very risky, and extremely competitive/open to anyone. " like your friend who invites you over to play video games but they really just want you to watch them while they play because they only have one controller they'll never let you touch." Well this is some cynical stuff, I'm not sure what to say.
    • winternett 5y ago
      People at the top of the pay scale are being paid an obscene amount of money for similar quality work that goes unpaid in many cases. From that they can hire teams of others to push their brand further. In order to compete, others need to go into debt just to be able to keep up. In order to admit that the highest paid streamers fairly made it to their current levels of obscene payment, it would be a lot more believable if there wasn't such a huge disparity in pay (from my perspective). I work with analytics, and understand them well. Twitch creates their own non-transparent algorithm that evaluates metrics and determines pay for contributors based on those factors. Twitch is in complete control over the rules for who gets paid and how much they are paid. In a fair creator economy yes, some would get rich and some would go unpaid, but the gap would not be that huge. Technically most of the contributing creators should be paid and promoted by the platform equally, and accurate metrics would determine who stays on top, but these days creators are not treated equally based on the data I've seen thus far. The inequality reflects on our current societal problems as well. The gap between top and bottom creators is massive based on data from Twitch, tons of people are technically working for free over many years in hopes of being discovered. The level of labor and efforts in being a platform user and a creator are very high, the problem is when success is only an illusion. Even as an unpaid creator, if the platform only promotes it's top creators, their profits surge while no one off the radar gets discovered, and thus the unequal profit cycle is upheld without anyone knowing the truth of skewed reality. Algorithms frequently reflect bias on all social media now because they are developed by companies and people that often have bias (towards making profit, or for political purposes, etc.). Even very talented creators don't stand a chance of being recognized or paid for their work because of that bias that drives profit on massive social media platforms because they are too often profit-driven machines.