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40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has

40 is not the new 60. Not even close. At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done and my pay has been better than ever. I'm 52 now and the trend has only gotten better. Why? Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. The only way that age becomes a detriment is if you do not grow. I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited. That's not his age, its the way he chose to build is CV. I focused on learning new tech; Python, Go, Kubernetes, Cloud, etc. I've also spend a lot of time learning the business aspects of my industry and I've learned to be less of a jerk to people and how to communicate. At 52, I have recruiters contact me all the time. Age is just number guys. Stay current, keep learning and stay strong.

AdrianB1 5y ago
There are many companies that don't want to hire people over 40. I applied to the same company with 2 identical profiles, in one I gave my real age and in one 10 years less, I got invited to an interview on one profile and rejected immediately on the other. Even my company rejects experienced hires if the job description is not specifically mandating senior-level experience. I just hired one such person that is a bit over 50 years old, I had to fight HR on this.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. What makes you think that? It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. Some 40-year-olds have 20x 1 year of experience, compared to some 25-year-old's 5 years of experience. If you think you're inherently better as a 40-year-old developer than all 25-year-old developers then I think you're deeply mistaken.
- Veen 5y ago
  > It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. It's also absolutely possible for a pig in a jetpack to fly past your window. Many unusual things are possible, but that doesn't make them any less unusual. In the vast majority of cases, older developers will have more experience and be more mature than younger developers.
- no-s 5y ago
  > 20x 1 year of experience That person has 20 years of experience in gaining short experiences. Something the 25 year old prodigy can’t have. Skippercat was just stating a fact. I feel the way you expressed your opinion reflects some intrinsic ageism. Bigotry often seeks a plausible rationale for justification.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    No I'm arguing against ageism. I'm over 35 myself. I'm just realistic that having been alive a long time doesn't automatically infer wisdom like people think it does. Someone who's spent 20 years not really learning anything or bettering themselves can be behind someone who's spent five years working hard. They said: > at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. Understanding tech, business process, and maturity don't necessarily take a long time to learn. Someone can spend 20 years not bothering to learn these things, while someone who's worked 5 years can have mastered them. Highly effective people can be young. Don't assume you'll have more of anything compared to them just because you've been around for longer.
    - ywei3410 5y ago
      But the original comment has specifically talked about the quality of the experience is important rather than just the quantity. > I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        They said you wouldn't find some combinations qualities in younger people at all. > You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer
        ywei3410 5y ago
        I took the gist of the original post as saying they didn't agree with the original article and didn't think age was the defining factor of employment problems at 40. That, by developing and demonstrating relevant skills they hadn't found there to be any problems. I took the quote as meaning that certain skills take time to master and it's impossible (which I took to be hyperbole) someone with less time would be able to master /all/ of the them; reinforcing their first point about how someone who is older should find it easier to find employment.
- ThrowawayR2 5y ago
  Yes, a 25 year old genius developer can be as good as a 40 year old average developer and better than a 40 year old subpar developer. However, geniuses are, by definition, extremely rare, so it should be self-evident that the heuristic is generally valid.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    'Won't find' vs 'may rarely find'. How about we just assess each individual without going in with any prejudice based on their age?
    - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
      I already do. But that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the heuristic.
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        Applying heuristics against people using personal characteristics they cannot control like their age is harfmul.
giantg2 5y ago
"I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited. That's not his age, its the way he chose to build is CV." I suppose everything is a choice. I have worked on tech that doesn't have a future because the company needs someone to fill those shitty positions. I naively believed the company when they talked about them taking care of employees and being able to make a career out of it.
- johanneskanybal 5y ago
  Yea, don't do that. Being able to sell your story to other tech people why your past projects are fun, interesting and maybe hard makes life so much easier and for the most part makes working more fun too. That doesn't mean every moment has to be amazing and developing but if it rarely is you're painting yourself into a corner.
jollybean 5y ago
The question is one of perception, trends, hiring - not one of materiality. In fact, the point is really about the likely dissonance between perception and reality.
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
>>> I've learned to be less of a jerk to people and how to communicate. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.............. But that bit is so hard ! :-)
- bacro 5y ago
  Indeed, I keep being a jerk to junior developers that constantly comes to me with the same questions after I explained to them 10000 times and they say "Yeaah, I got it now". It is so hard to avoid being a jerk. What should I do?
  - plutonorm 5y ago
    Get a stress ball. Practise screaming inside your head. Works for me.
    - bacro 5y ago
      I need a punch bag
  - mooreds 5y ago
    Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefully they will learn they can just go to the doc.
    - mnsc 5y ago
      About that first point, that to me seem like a genuine and emphatic thing to do but I want to flag that this has the potential to go into the "soft" areas where feelings exist. For a crash course in "feelings and needs" read non-violent communication to be appropriately humbled by how hard (but important) this skill is.
switch007 5y ago
> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. Am I being uncharitable to question if that’s ageism?
- dr-detroit 5y ago
  Show me a 5 year old kid who is starting out as a professional and sure I'll believe a 25 year old can have a 40 year olds experience
- klohto 5y ago
  You're not. It completely diminishes the whole point. I have met many younger developers who went through different struggles and are more mature than most 40-years old. Opposite ageism is also real, this one is a proof of it.
- danso 5y ago
  Sure, it’s ageism by definition — i.e. discrimination/stereotyping based on age. But in the current context (of employment), ageism usually refers to discrimination against older people. For example, the main U.S. federal law on age discrimination: https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination > * It is not illegal for an employer or other covered entity to favor an older worker over a younger one, even if both workers are age 40 or older.*
dgb23 5y ago
> The only way that age becomes a detriment is if you do not grow. There has been research about this as well under the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity. Might be interesting to look at. My understanding is that you are exactly right. It seems to be common that we tend to stop learning and pushing ourselves, get comfortable or maybe even afraid. To each his own, but I think it is more fun and fruitful to keep at it. Thank you for sharing your experience.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  I call it the "grumpy old fart" syndrome. I've (M50+) felt it - the urge to stop learning and complain at everything that changes. It is a struggle to continue learning at this age. But it is worth it. Being a grumpy old fart sucks all the joy out of life.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    So does keeping up with all the latest hotness when you already know it won’t fix your organizational problems. Hell, I’m only 33 and when asked today what I currently want to learn, had to seriously consider that I didn’t want to learn anything new in particular.
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      We picked the wrong century to quit learning ;)
    - lightbendover 5y ago
      I would feel more inclined to continue to "learn" (read: pick up shiny new frameworks, not actually learn new fundamentals) if the new stuff wasn't just rehashed old stuff. If I need to pick something up, fine, that's trivial, but "learning" for the sake of "learning" is best left to the juniors.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      I tell them the truth: I wanna go deep in my stack (Ruby) to the point of learning C and VMs to understand how the Ruby interpreter works. This is what interests me; I really can't see how learning Node or Elixir is gonna make a better programmer than what I want to do.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I've seen a lot of good Programmers shown the door at 50-55. Sure, some left expecting to find another job, but remained continuously unemployed. I've personally known four homeless individuals in my life. Two were Programmers. I have never seen an industry that just thinks employees are not worth paying when they hit 50. And yes--I'm aware of the older high paid employee that's the first to go in a corporation. These guys I knew were not those guys. They were just enthusiastic employees, whom thought they were doing a good job.
willvarfar 5y ago
The point isn’t that techies over 40 can’t do good work or keep current or invent the future, it’s that they can’t get a job. As someone a few years north of 40 and recently went looking for a new job, I can identify with much of the article. Although for me, in the market I’m in, I kinda felt the pay for a ‘senior dev’ didn’t really cut it either. The whole pay structure is for younger folks and veterans have a hard job finding work.
- aweiland 5y ago
  I'm in the same boat. Also "senior dev" doesn't mean what it meant 10 years ago. I just had a really quick chat last night with a engineering lead. The position was a "senior dev" with 5-8 years experience in multiple things. Usually those are taken is minimums. They were actually maximums. He was surprised I made it past the initial recruiter screen having 20+ years experience. We thanked each other for our time and said so long after just a couple of minutes. SV has sort of broken the job search, especially for more senior people. It's not just JR/SR anymore, it's some weird mashup of: Staff, Sr Staff, Principal, Level 3-5, Distinguished... Every company out there is pretending they are a FAANG when hiring, asking for 4-6 hours of your time. I'm working full time with 2 young kids. It's a nightmare.
  - stooliepidgin 5y ago
    One has to adapt to the biases and reality for survival. Lie about your age if it ever comes up. Lie downward about your experience too. Fuck their discriminatory bullshit.
    - hansel_der 5y ago
      i know a career-agent from a job-center that told me the same thing after he had witnessed many qualified and experienced engineers beeing rejected because of age- or buzzword-based discrimination.
jasode 5y ago
>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace. Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming : oft-reported industry bias against age 40+ and active recruitment (especially by software companies) for 20-somethings. - corporate executive manager (e.g. CEO, COO, CFO, etc) : age 40+ is typically the target hire age. Being a younger 20-something actually works against being hired for these roles. (To be CEO at age 20, you'd have to be the founder of a startup.) - surgeon : age 40+ doesn't seem to bother patients. They may rather have a 55-year old do their heart bypass rather than a young 30-year old just out of residency. Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why? I have pet theories on that but I'd rather hear what others think.
- fortran77 5y ago
  > The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace. C'mon! You don't expect someone here to have actually read the story. He didn't even get the irony of the title (Usually the expression goes the other way, i.e., "50 is the new 40") which means he didn't even read the title too well, either.
- alexwebb2 5y ago
  The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable due to having the wrong habits and patterns of thinking; this stands in contrast to surgery or management skills which are widely perceived to be more timeless with candidate value compounding with experience. It’s plainly false for all sorts of reasons, but that’s the source of the disparity.
  - 5y ago
geoduck14 5y ago
>only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system Are you describing uploading data to and S3 bucket? Or maintaining tape decks? Depending on how to interpret this, this could be an advanced skill. For context, I'm learning about how to build a Data Lake that supports a Feature Store for an ML platform. Feature Stores are relatively recent (4ish years?) and only make sense in Enterprises
brandall10 5y ago
I’m 45 and have never gotten more attention from recruiters, despite the fact I entered the job market during the height of the dot com era. My graduation date is clearly marked on all resumes in circulation, as is my experience showing my first internship all the way back in ‘96. It’s not only the number of ops that hit my plate, but the sheer aggressiveness of the recruiters. Very often am I contacted repeatedly, sometimes up to 5 times, by a recruiter for an op. Many times it’s directly by the hiring manager, the director, cto, or even ceo of the company. In fact, only in my 40s have most of the major tech companies reached out to set up interviews (Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Apple), and a ton of pre-IPO unicorns. During the pandemic I had the former CEO of Zelle personally interview for his new venture and Brian Acton personally reached out to schedule an interview for One Signal. I’m just a principal dev who does React and Rails. Been a tech lead in a few startups, never held a title above that, never a de facto people manager and certainly not a director. I remember the sheer terror I was feeling toward the top of the my 30s because of discussions like this on Hacker News. Had a taste of management in my early 30s and decided it wasn’t for me, and remember toying with ideas for a career switch because surely, I would be dead as a programmer soon. The exact opposite happened.
- twox2 5y ago
  Are the recruiters targeting YOU specifically or are they just taking the spray-and-pray approach reaching out to everyone who fits certain keywords?
  - brandall10 5y ago
    Most refer to specific aspects of my experience, some specifically referencing my current role (ie. they've read my LI, which also clearly shows my grad date)... some are spray and pray. Probably 80% of things that come my way are applicable to what I do both in skillset and title (Lead/principal/staff/director roles). Does it matter? If there is some way that recruiters are filtering based on age, my age is clearly discernable.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
mosburger 5y ago
During my last job hunt a little over three years ago, I encountered what I think was some subtle ageism or at least discrimination based on family status (lots of questions about my family life when interviewed by the CTO and CEO, ultimately turned down because they didn't think I had the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed). I ultimately got a job at a better company anyway and probably dodged a bullet, but it's pretty naïve to think it doesn't happen sometimes, especially at startups or places that pride themselves on a "startup mentality."
- cyberlurker 5y ago
  Isn’t that technically illegal?
  - comeonseriously 5y ago
    Yes, that's illegal. Move fast and break (the law) things I guess?
  - mosburger 5y ago
    Yeah, it is, but honestly what am I gonna do about it? :/ I suppose I could've reported them to... somebody? Sue them for a job I didn't even really want? In retrospect I probably should've left a bad review on Glassdoor explaining what happened, but it was so long ago I just sorta forgot about it.
  - wedn3sday 5y ago
    Lots of technically illegal things happen the first time an interviewer sees your face.
    - sundvor 5y ago
      I (closer to 50) always straight up say I've got two young kids and that I partake actively in their upbringing. One of them with special needs, even. For me that helps filter out workplaces that would not be a good fit for myself. There are a number of workplaces where a good balance is actively supported! When needed, everyone will put in extra but the expectation and in fact reality is to keep things 9-5:30 as much as possible.
thrownintospace 5y ago
Is there any hope for me? I'm just now finishing a post-bacc at 35.... :(
sundvor 5y ago
Getting closer to 50 here and finding value in looking after my health. Quit all alcohol nearly a year ago, kept my lifting steady and am now getting close to setting some life long PBs for strength. (Barbell Prescription, garage gym). This has really helped ground me and keep my focus in tumultuous times. I feel like my tech and ability to see the bigger picture is only getting better. And I still maintain the same child like joy of tech that I had when I opened my Vic 20 not too far away from 40 years ago. Never stop learning, indeed!
joelbluminator 5y ago
But still, what is your added level in say Go over a 35 year old who does Go for 5 years already? Wouldn't it have been better to just stick to one or two techs throughout your career?
- lanstin 5y ago
  Better in what way? Only in ways that make people old rather than ways that make people young. Here is a repeatable path to security. And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine? I am seeking the pleasures of learning and learning with other smart people, not trying to win a contest. My method to do that is find problems, without a recipe answer, for technology problems that my employers are facing. But the motivating goal is to learn new things and build new things.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    > And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine? Depends on how expensive you are, what the market is like, how well you compensate in other areas (people skills, analytical thought etc) but all in all the market will prefer the 35 year old because our industry is somewhat shitty and ageist. It is what it is. However you will have a very strong network for having worked so many years so you can probably easily overcome this.
slingnow 5y ago
Great. What did any of this have to do with the article? Did you just read the title and get fired up?
dkarl 5y ago
> I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited. At 52, that can be a good move, if that enterprise system will be around somewhere for the next ten years. Remote work makes it an even safer bet. During that time, he can devote more attention to his family, community, and hobbies, instead of trying to make sure he is employable by the maximum number of businesses. You only get paid for one job, no matter how many you're prepared for.
mihaaly 5y ago
Still, despite ambitions and knowledge you are less employable in the eye of HR/Recruiters. They seek very specific set of current tech stack and very recent experience posessed, as well as familiarity of specific management styles just yesterday, for specific tasks. For cheap! On the bulk. Ability to push them around and lower tolerance to eat any bull*t fed to them by (potentially incompetent or clueless) management is also highly valued. Ideally more senior emloyees worked in multitude of situations and team structure and project is better for productivity, they also have more even performance in long term, but hiring practice seems to be unideal. Perhaps they have a shorter attention span in mind, promoting replaceablity over long term stability and predictability?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Alex3917 5y ago
> I focused on learning new tech; Python, Go, Kubernetes, Cloud, etc. OK, but it's also completely legitimate to just say, "I already know Python so now I just want to focus on building better and better things each year, not getting better at tech." And yet that won't make you employable, even though it's probably the ideal strategy as an entrepreneur and product creator.
- lanstin 5y ago
  Sounds a bit dull tho.
racl101 5y ago
I agree that we're doing some of our best stuff in older age. But can we make employers see that we are not dinosaurs at 38 years old? lol Otherwise, we'll be stuck making our best work from the confines of our basement.
blub 5y ago
The really interesting question is whether you and the other N guys replying claiming that they're enjoying good careers are an outlier or the typical case. Based on the multitude of threads and articles about ageism posted on HN alone and what we know about ageism in general, I'd say it's the former, but I'd be interested to see if someone actually studied this.
sireat 5y ago
OP should have had offers pouring in: "using and teaching Python for over 20 years, and designed its built-in set module, but nobody would hire me as a Python programmer when I was laid off by RStudio in February." If OP can't get an offer(for Python!) then something is really wrong. Where? Possibly they could not get past some silly HR filter. If you were a Python shop wouldn't you want to have an interview with OP would you? There is an advice floating around HN that one should contribute meaningfully to some popular open source project and/or write a book about something -> leading to better career prospects. The above might be helpful but clearly not sufficient. (I've seen good book authors still looking for job prospects)

AdrianB1 5y ago

There are many companies that don't want to hire people over 40. I applied to the same company with 2 identical profiles, in one I gave my real age and in one 10 years less, I got invited to an interview on one profile and rejected immediately on the other. Even my company rejects experienced hires if the job description is not specifically mandating senior-level experience. I just hired one such person that is a bit over 50 years old, I had to fight HR on this.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. What makes you think that? It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. Some 40-year-olds have 20x 1 year of experience, compared to some 25-year-old's 5 years of experience. If you think you're inherently better as a 40-year-old developer than all 25-year-old developers then I think you're deeply mistaken.

Veen 5y ago
> It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. It's also absolutely possible for a pig in a jetpack to fly past your window. Many unusual things are possible, but that doesn't make them any less unusual. In the vast majority of cases, older developers will have more experience and be more mature than younger developers.
no-s 5y ago
> 20x 1 year of experience That person has 20 years of experience in gaining short experiences. Something the 25 year old prodigy can’t have. Skippercat was just stating a fact. I feel the way you expressed your opinion reflects some intrinsic ageism. Bigotry often seeks a plausible rationale for justification.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  No I'm arguing against ageism. I'm over 35 myself. I'm just realistic that having been alive a long time doesn't automatically infer wisdom like people think it does. Someone who's spent 20 years not really learning anything or bettering themselves can be behind someone who's spent five years working hard. They said: > at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way. Understanding tech, business process, and maturity don't necessarily take a long time to learn. Someone can spend 20 years not bothering to learn these things, while someone who's worked 5 years can have mastered them. Highly effective people can be young. Don't assume you'll have more of anything compared to them just because you've been around for longer.
  - ywei3410 5y ago
    But the original comment has specifically talked about the quality of the experience is important rather than just the quantity. > I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      They said you wouldn't find some combinations qualities in younger people at all. > You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer
      - ywei3410 5y ago
        I took the gist of the original post as saying they didn't agree with the original article and didn't think age was the defining factor of employment problems at 40. That, by developing and demonstrating relevant skills they hadn't found there to be any problems. I took the quote as meaning that certain skills take time to master and it's impossible (which I took to be hyperbole) someone with less time would be able to master /all/ of the them; reinforcing their first point about how someone who is older should find it easier to find employment.
ThrowawayR2 5y ago
Yes, a 25 year old genius developer can be as good as a 40 year old average developer and better than a 40 year old subpar developer. However, geniuses are, by definition, extremely rare, so it should be self-evident that the heuristic is generally valid.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  'Won't find' vs 'may rarely find'. How about we just assess each individual without going in with any prejudice based on their age?
  - ThrowawayR2 5y ago
    I already do. But that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the heuristic.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Applying heuristics against people using personal characteristics they cannot control like their age is harfmul.

giantg2 5y ago

"I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited. That's not his age, its the way he chose to build is CV." I suppose everything is a choice. I have worked on tech that doesn't have a future because the company needs someone to fill those shitty positions. I naively believed the company when they talked about them taking care of employees and being able to make a career out of it.

johanneskanybal 5y ago
Yea, don't do that. Being able to sell your story to other tech people why your past projects are fun, interesting and maybe hard makes life so much easier and for the most part makes working more fun too. That doesn't mean every moment has to be amazing and developing but if it rarely is you're painting yourself into a corner.

jollybean 5y ago

The question is one of perception, trends, hiring - not one of materiality. In fact, the point is really about the likely dissonance between perception and reality.

lifeisstillgood 5y ago

>>> I've learned to be less of a jerk to people and how to communicate. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.............. But that bit is so hard ! :-)

bacro 5y ago
Indeed, I keep being a jerk to junior developers that constantly comes to me with the same questions after I explained to them 10000 times and they say "Yeaah, I got it now". It is so hard to avoid being a jerk. What should I do?
- plutonorm 5y ago
  Get a stress ball. Practise screaming inside your head. Works for me.
  - bacro 5y ago
    I need a punch bag
- mooreds 5y ago
  Two options: * Ask why they keep coming? Maybe you aren't understanding their question, they want to build the relationship, or it's a really risky operation and they don't want to undertake it alone. This might be worth digging into. * Write the answer down to the questions (wiki, internal doc, whatever). When they ask, point them to what you've written down. Will still take some time and interrupt you, but hopefully they will learn they can just go to the doc.
  - mnsc 5y ago
    About that first point, that to me seem like a genuine and emphatic thing to do but I want to flag that this has the potential to go into the "soft" areas where feelings exist. For a crash course in "feelings and needs" read non-violent communication to be appropriately humbled by how hard (but important) this skill is.

switch007 5y ago

> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. Am I being uncharitable to question if that’s ageism?

dr-detroit 5y ago
Show me a 5 year old kid who is starting out as a professional and sure I'll believe a 25 year old can have a 40 year olds experience
klohto 5y ago
You're not. It completely diminishes the whole point. I have met many younger developers who went through different struggles and are more mature than most 40-years old. Opposite ageism is also real, this one is a proof of it.
danso 5y ago
Sure, it’s ageism by definition — i.e. discrimination/stereotyping based on age. But in the current context (of employment), ageism usually refers to discrimination against older people. For example, the main U.S. federal law on age discrimination: https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination > * It is not illegal for an employer or other covered entity to favor an older worker over a younger one, even if both workers are age 40 or older.*

dgb23 5y ago

> The only way that age becomes a detriment is if you do not grow. There has been research about this as well under the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity. Might be interesting to look at. My understanding is that you are exactly right. It seems to be common that we tend to stop learning and pushing ourselves, get comfortable or maybe even afraid. To each his own, but I think it is more fun and fruitful to keep at it. Thank you for sharing your experience.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
I call it the "grumpy old fart" syndrome. I've (M50+) felt it - the urge to stop learning and complain at everything that changes. It is a struggle to continue learning at this age. But it is worth it. Being a grumpy old fart sucks all the joy out of life.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  So does keeping up with all the latest hotness when you already know it won’t fix your organizational problems. Hell, I’m only 33 and when asked today what I currently want to learn, had to seriously consider that I didn’t want to learn anything new in particular.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    We picked the wrong century to quit learning ;)
  - lightbendover 5y ago
    I would feel more inclined to continue to "learn" (read: pick up shiny new frameworks, not actually learn new fundamentals) if the new stuff wasn't just rehashed old stuff. If I need to pick something up, fine, that's trivial, but "learning" for the sake of "learning" is best left to the juniors.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    I tell them the truth: I wanna go deep in my stack (Ruby) to the point of learning C and VMs to understand how the Ruby interpreter works. This is what interests me; I really can't see how learning Node or Elixir is gonna make a better programmer than what I want to do.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I've seen a lot of good Programmers shown the door at 50-55. Sure, some left expecting to find another job, but remained continuously unemployed. I've personally known four homeless individuals in my life. Two were Programmers. I have never seen an industry that just thinks employees are not worth paying when they hit 50. And yes--I'm aware of the older high paid employee that's the first to go in a corporation. These guys I knew were not those guys. They were just enthusiastic employees, whom thought they were doing a good job.

willvarfar 5y ago

The point isn’t that techies over 40 can’t do good work or keep current or invent the future, it’s that they can’t get a job. As someone a few years north of 40 and recently went looking for a new job, I can identify with much of the article. Although for me, in the market I’m in, I kinda felt the pay for a ‘senior dev’ didn’t really cut it either. The whole pay structure is for younger folks and veterans have a hard job finding work.

aweiland 5y ago
I'm in the same boat. Also "senior dev" doesn't mean what it meant 10 years ago. I just had a really quick chat last night with a engineering lead. The position was a "senior dev" with 5-8 years experience in multiple things. Usually those are taken is minimums. They were actually maximums. He was surprised I made it past the initial recruiter screen having 20+ years experience. We thanked each other for our time and said so long after just a couple of minutes. SV has sort of broken the job search, especially for more senior people. It's not just JR/SR anymore, it's some weird mashup of: Staff, Sr Staff, Principal, Level 3-5, Distinguished... Every company out there is pretending they are a FAANG when hiring, asking for 4-6 hours of your time. I'm working full time with 2 young kids. It's a nightmare.
- stooliepidgin 5y ago
  One has to adapt to the biases and reality for survival. Lie about your age if it ever comes up. Lie downward about your experience too. Fuck their discriminatory bullshit.
  - hansel_der 5y ago
    i know a career-agent from a job-center that told me the same thing after he had witnessed many qualified and experienced engineers beeing rejected because of age- or buzzword-based discrimination.

jasode 5y ago

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace. Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming : oft-reported industry bias against age 40+ and active recruitment (especially by software companies) for 20-somethings. - corporate executive manager (e.g. CEO, COO, CFO, etc) : age 40+ is typically the target hire age. Being a younger 20-something actually works against being hired for these roles. (To be CEO at age 20, you'd have to be the founder of a startup.) - surgeon : age 40+ doesn't seem to bother patients. They may rather have a 55-year old do their heart bypass rather than a young 30-year old just out of residency. Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why? I have pet theories on that but I'd rather hear what others think.

fortran77 5y ago
> The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace. C'mon! You don't expect someone here to have actually read the story. He didn't even get the irony of the title (Usually the expression goes the other way, i.e., "50 is the new 40") which means he didn't even read the title too well, either.
alexwebb2 5y ago
The implicit assumption powering this is that programming experience from 35 years ago is not only irrelevant to today’s challenges, but undesirable due to having the wrong habits and patterns of thinking; this stands in contrast to surgery or management skills which are widely perceived to be more timeless with candidate value compounding with experience. It’s plainly false for all sorts of reasons, but that’s the source of the disparity.
- 5y ago

geoduck14 5y ago

>only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system Are you describing uploading data to and S3 bucket? Or maintaining tape decks? Depending on how to interpret this, this could be an advanced skill. For context, I'm learning about how to build a Data Lake that supports a Feature Store for an ML platform. Feature Stores are relatively recent (4ish years?) and only make sense in Enterprises

brandall10 5y ago

I’m 45 and have never gotten more attention from recruiters, despite the fact I entered the job market during the height of the dot com era. My graduation date is clearly marked on all resumes in circulation, as is my experience showing my first internship all the way back in ‘96. It’s not only the number of ops that hit my plate, but the sheer aggressiveness of the recruiters. Very often am I contacted repeatedly, sometimes up to 5 times, by a recruiter for an op. Many times it’s directly by the hiring manager, the director, cto, or even ceo of the company. In fact, only in my 40s have most of the major tech companies reached out to set up interviews (Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Apple), and a ton of pre-IPO unicorns. During the pandemic I had the former CEO of Zelle personally interview for his new venture and Brian Acton personally reached out to schedule an interview for One Signal. I’m just a principal dev who does React and Rails. Been a tech lead in a few startups, never held a title above that, never a de facto people manager and certainly not a director. I remember the sheer terror I was feeling toward the top of the my 30s because of discussions like this on Hacker News. Had a taste of management in my early 30s and decided it wasn’t for me, and remember toying with ideas for a career switch because surely, I would be dead as a programmer soon. The exact opposite happened.

twox2 5y ago
Are the recruiters targeting YOU specifically or are they just taking the spray-and-pray approach reaching out to everyone who fits certain keywords?
- brandall10 5y ago
  Most refer to specific aspects of my experience, some specifically referencing my current role (ie. they've read my LI, which also clearly shows my grad date)... some are spray and pray. Probably 80% of things that come my way are applicable to what I do both in skillset and title (Lead/principal/staff/director roles). Does it matter? If there is some way that recruiters are filtering based on age, my age is clearly discernable.
  - nitrogen 5y ago

mosburger 5y ago

During my last job hunt a little over three years ago, I encountered what I think was some subtle ageism or at least discrimination based on family status (lots of questions about my family life when interviewed by the CTO and CEO, ultimately turned down because they didn't think I had the energy/disposition to be devoted enough to the company to put in extra effort when needed). I ultimately got a job at a better company anyway and probably dodged a bullet, but it's pretty naïve to think it doesn't happen sometimes, especially at startups or places that pride themselves on a "startup mentality."

cyberlurker 5y ago
Isn’t that technically illegal?
- comeonseriously 5y ago
  Yes, that's illegal. Move fast and break (the law) things I guess?
- mosburger 5y ago
  Yeah, it is, but honestly what am I gonna do about it? :/ I suppose I could've reported them to... somebody? Sue them for a job I didn't even really want? In retrospect I probably should've left a bad review on Glassdoor explaining what happened, but it was so long ago I just sorta forgot about it.
- wedn3sday 5y ago
  Lots of technically illegal things happen the first time an interviewer sees your face.
  - sundvor 5y ago
    I (closer to 50) always straight up say I've got two young kids and that I partake actively in their upbringing. One of them with special needs, even. For me that helps filter out workplaces that would not be a good fit for myself. There are a number of workplaces where a good balance is actively supported! When needed, everyone will put in extra but the expectation and in fact reality is to keep things 9-5:30 as much as possible.

thrownintospace 5y ago

Is there any hope for me? I'm just now finishing a post-bacc at 35.... :(

sundvor 5y ago

Getting closer to 50 here and finding value in looking after my health. Quit all alcohol nearly a year ago, kept my lifting steady and am now getting close to setting some life long PBs for strength. (Barbell Prescription, garage gym). This has really helped ground me and keep my focus in tumultuous times. I feel like my tech and ability to see the bigger picture is only getting better. And I still maintain the same child like joy of tech that I had when I opened my Vic 20 not too far away from 40 years ago. Never stop learning, indeed!

joelbluminator 5y ago

But still, what is your added level in say Go over a 35 year old who does Go for 5 years already? Wouldn't it have been better to just stick to one or two techs throughout your career?

lanstin 5y ago
Better in what way? Only in ways that make people old rather than ways that make people young. Here is a repeatable path to security. And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine? I am seeking the pleasures of learning and learning with other smart people, not trying to win a contest. My method to do that is find problems, without a recipe answer, for technology problems that my employers are facing. But the motivating goal is to learn new things and build new things.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > And say I am only just as good as the newbie in go. Isn’t that fine? Depends on how expensive you are, what the market is like, how well you compensate in other areas (people skills, analytical thought etc) but all in all the market will prefer the 35 year old because our industry is somewhat shitty and ageist. It is what it is. However you will have a very strong network for having worked so many years so you can probably easily overcome this.

slingnow 5y ago

Great. What did any of this have to do with the article? Did you just read the title and get fired up?

dkarl 5y ago

> I worked with someone my age who only strong skills are a large enterprise storage system. He is a dinosaur and his future is limited. At 52, that can be a good move, if that enterprise system will be around somewhere for the next ten years. Remote work makes it an even safer bet. During that time, he can devote more attention to his family, community, and hobbies, instead of trying to make sure he is employable by the maximum number of businesses. You only get paid for one job, no matter how many you're prepared for.

mihaaly 5y ago

Still, despite ambitions and knowledge you are less employable in the eye of HR/Recruiters. They seek very specific set of current tech stack and very recent experience posessed, as well as familiarity of specific management styles just yesterday, for specific tasks. For cheap! On the bulk. Ability to push them around and lower tolerance to eat any bull*t fed to them by (potentially incompetent or clueless) management is also highly valued. Ideally more senior emloyees worked in multitude of situations and team structure and project is better for productivity, they also have more even performance in long term, but hiring practice seems to be unideal. Perhaps they have a shorter attention span in mind, promoting replaceablity over long term stability and predictability?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Alex3917 5y ago

> I focused on learning new tech; Python, Go, Kubernetes, Cloud, etc. OK, but it's also completely legitimate to just say, "I already know Python so now I just want to focus on building better and better things each year, not getting better at tech." And yet that won't make you employable, even though it's probably the ideal strategy as an entrepreneur and product creator.

lanstin 5y ago
Sounds a bit dull tho.

racl101 5y ago

I agree that we're doing some of our best stuff in older age. But can we make employers see that we are not dinosaurs at 38 years old? lol Otherwise, we'll be stuck making our best work from the confines of our basement.

blub 5y ago

The really interesting question is whether you and the other N guys replying claiming that they're enjoying good careers are an outlier or the typical case. Based on the multitude of threads and articles about ageism posted on HN alone and what we know about ageism in general, I'd say it's the former, but I'd be interested to see if someone actually studied this.

sireat 5y ago

OP should have had offers pouring in: "using and teaching Python for over 20 years, and designed its built-in set module, but nobody would hire me as a Python programmer when I was laid off by RStudio in February." If OP can't get an offer(for Python!) then something is really wrong. Where? Possibly they could not get past some silly HR filter. If you were a Python shop wouldn't you want to have an interview with OP would you? There is an advice floating around HN that one should contribute meaningfully to some popular open source project and/or write a book about something -> leading to better career prospects. The above might be helpful but clearly not sufficient. (I've seen good book authors still looking for job prospects)