9 ms·

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious

by hkaly 5y ago

Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. It will attract thd clueless and the most ambitious. People who are ready to defend it for their own profit. Its a trap where the hole they are in just keeps growing deeper.

jareklupinski 5y ago
Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(
- mmckeen 5y ago
  This still happens in Canada I believe
  - __turbobrew__ 5y ago
    Yes, it does
  - dogorman 5y ago
    I know an American civil engineer who has one of these rings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring Wikipedia says the oath that goes with it is: I am an Engineer. In my profession I take deep pride. To it I owe solemn obligations. As an engineer, I, (full name), pledge to practice Integrity and Fair Dealing, Tolerance, and Respect, and to uphold devotion to the standards and dignity of my profession, conscious always that my skill carries with it the obligation to serve humanity by making best use of the Earth's precious wealth. As an engineer, I shall participate in none but honest enterprises. When needed, my skill and knowledge shall be given without reservation for the public good. In the performance of duty, and in fidelity to my profession, I shall give the utmost. --- I get the impression this ring is not for "software engineers". I really dislike that term, I call myself a computer programmer to anybody who asks, regardless of the title my employer flatters me with. I think "software engineer" is leaching off the social prestige real engineers have earned for their professions. Prestige the software industry in general does not yet deserve. Programmers take jobs making shitty socially harmful products then deflect all blame to their employers, denying their own responsibility to society that oath describes. I am sure there are some programmers who deserve it, but by in large, the term is used by companies to flatter code monkeys making gambling apps, spyware, social media skinner boxes, etc. I am not without sin here, so I refuse to call myself an engineer.
    - tdeck 5y ago
      Those other engineering professions some harmful things too. Didn't engineers design prisons, casinos, nuclear weapons, land mines, plants that manufacture harmful chemicals, etc..? The only way to believe that these oaths make a difference is to ignore all those things. Anyway, at my university (CS/computer eng. major) everyone in the engineering school goes through the same induction ceremony that I think had a similar oath. I still have the Wash. U. Engineer's Creed card in my wallet. I vaguely remember that Tau Beta Pi had a similar thing. Honestly, I appreciate the ideals, but I don't think the oath made folks from my program any more ethical than those from other schools.
      - m0zg 5y ago
        All of the things you've listed aren't universally bad. Prisons keep bad people out of society (and yes, I'm aware that some folks shouldn't be in prison, and I wish that'd change, but majority are in the clink for violent crime). Nuclear weapons ensure superpowers can't attack each other - that's why we haven't had a world war in the past 76 years in spite of some pretty crazy tensions. Land mines make land invasions difficult and protect those who installed them. Harmful chemicals usually are not made just for the harm - they have their own useful functions. So I'd draw the line much further than that: somewhere near biological and chemical weapons which have no useful function at all, and do not help with maintaining peace.
        vasco 5y ago
        The fact you can justify land mines says it all about the ability of some oath to ensure anything about the behaviour of large groups of people.
        m0zg 5y ago
        Yes, soldiers on the battlefield are very thankful for the land mines, assuming they're the ones who installed them. With any luck a dude from the other side might not be able to cross the field and slit their throats in the dead of the night. Just as pilots are thankful for fighter jets not crapping out in mid-air, and nuclear submarine sailors are thankful for the engineering that went into the hull, and a gunner is thankful for the shells which don't explode in the barrel of a howitzer. War is hell, but if you're going to win it (or even deter it), you'll need engineers who know how to design weapons. And this is not the kind of game that you can just decline to participate in unless you'd like to learn a foreign language in a concentration camp.
- MikeTheGreat 5y ago
  It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have. Also - I'm curious about how effective it is to tell the engineers to do the right thing (even at the expense of personal gain). It seems like the people most responsible for making decisions that build harmful products aren't the ones who are actually tasked with building the harmful products. Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening?
  - jareklupinski 5y ago
    one thing that I found works: religion. ask the engineer about to enter the arena what they would like to do with the money they hope to achieve, their end-goals, etc. then follow-up with whether they would feel morally/spiritually at peace with their choices and methods after the fact (do your ends justify your means?) in my experience, the people with the IQ to earn a yacht responsibly end up settling for a speedboat anyway.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It certainly does, just not in US. https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especialidades/informatica/ https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especi... No Portuguese university is allowed to call their computing degrees engineering without their approval, and in certain kinds of state related projects, the one putting their signature into the legal contracts has to have the professional title acknowledged. Germany and Switzerland have a similar process for those carrying engineering on their title. Either that or you have done it via a trade school, and people on the job have to have a kind of teaching certification for the school to approve the company as teaching place.
    - hahajk 5y ago
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :( IIRC, they do, and it doesn't work. The "Californian Ideology" has a strong hold on the tech world and it's incompatible with that kind duty,
danjac 5y ago
Sadly there's always enough smart sociopaths willing to work for a fat pay cheque or to learn "interesting" tech. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,"says Wernher von Braun."
tjpnz 5y ago
>Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. At some point the brand will become so toxic that engineers who've worked there could find themselves persona non grata in many tech roles.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Unfortunately I think other companies would still be happy hiring ex FB developers. They still are ex FAANG, and they showed to give moral and principle the rear seat when it comes to revenue and business. Why wouldn't these folks be hireable?
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
    Personally, when I see FB on a resume, it’s a factor. I want people who will help push the company in a healthy direction. There’s always pressure to make changes to the app that increase addictiveness without adding actual value to the client, and I’m proud to work somewhere where colleagues push back on that kind of thing. Working at FB is a (relatively weak) signal that they won’t be that kind of colleague. It will come up in the interview. If they can convince me that they stayed there in a ‘change it from within’ capacity, great. Otherwise, yeah it’s a negative signal.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > At some point the brand will become so toxic that engineers who've worked there could find themselves persona non grata in many tech roles. The majority of startups is still "growth and engagement" as opposed to producing real products/services that people pay for, so ex-Facebook is the perfect match.
tomjen3 5y ago
Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them.
- ahartmetz 5y ago
  Smart is not the same as cynical. Being cynical doesn't require that much intelligence.
- jobigoud 5y ago
  > Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them. Nothing? Not even a clear conscience? The "but someone else will do it" argument is used to justify so many wrong doings… We hear it all the time about fighting climate change, building unethical weapons, etc. You also have the choice to not personally actively contribute to whatever unethical thing is being discussed. It's a circular game theory problem, that "other person that will do it anyway" might also be justifying it because they think you would do it if they didn't.
- lowkey_ 5y ago
  > Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. I've worked in banking and my ex worked for Facebook, and I genuinely don't see the comparison beyond rather inaccurate tropes. Bankers aren't tearing apart society and sowing division like Facebook is.
  - ryan93 5y ago
    Trump lost his second term. I think society was actually torn apart during the civil war.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  > Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them. Serious question: Do you vote? Because this argument seems like people who say “my vote doesn’t matter, it’s just one vote out of millions.” It’s true that at the individual level, one vote basically never makes the difference, but elections are won and lost. In the same way, if one person says no, maybe it will barely make a difference, but teams are made of more than one person.
DrBazza 5y ago
I've been approached by FB recruiters 3 times and turned them down 3 times. I've removed FB from all my devices except one. The only thing keeping me on the platform is that my sports clubs use it to organise matches and runs. I check FB once a day. All notifications are off. I really don't want anything to do with them. I'd still work for a military software developer. But not Facebook. Frankly, I was also surprised recently, though I shouldn't be, that there are (or were) some quite 'famous' developers / comp-sci researchers working there.
- amelius 5y ago
  > I really don't want anything to do with them. I'd still work for a military software developer. But not Facebook. Would you use open source packages developed by them?
  - DrBazza 5y ago
    Interesting. I probably would. Though I haven’t knowingly done so, so far.
tubby12345 5y ago
The idea that FB will become a radioactive brand is wishful thinking that people indulge in with every new FB "scandal". Recruiting (yes even from "target" schools) hasn't slowed one bit. And regarding eg FAIR: The ones that have started murmuring about jumping ship are not the ones that are excellent but the ones that have outsized ideas of themselves as do-gooders.

by hkaly 5y ago

jareklupinski 5y ago

Engineers used to be offered an "Iron Ring" (or other similar token) to symbolize their responsibility to human welfare, even at the cost of personal achievement/merit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Ring Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :(

mmckeen 5y ago
This still happens in Canada I believe
- __turbobrew__ 5y ago
  Yes, it does
- dogorman 5y ago
  I know an American civil engineer who has one of these rings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring Wikipedia says the oath that goes with it is: I am an Engineer. In my profession I take deep pride. To it I owe solemn obligations. As an engineer, I, (full name), pledge to practice Integrity and Fair Dealing, Tolerance, and Respect, and to uphold devotion to the standards and dignity of my profession, conscious always that my skill carries with it the obligation to serve humanity by making best use of the Earth's precious wealth. As an engineer, I shall participate in none but honest enterprises. When needed, my skill and knowledge shall be given without reservation for the public good. In the performance of duty, and in fidelity to my profession, I shall give the utmost. --- I get the impression this ring is not for "software engineers". I really dislike that term, I call myself a computer programmer to anybody who asks, regardless of the title my employer flatters me with. I think "software engineer" is leaching off the social prestige real engineers have earned for their professions. Prestige the software industry in general does not yet deserve. Programmers take jobs making shitty socially harmful products then deflect all blame to their employers, denying their own responsibility to society that oath describes. I am sure there are some programmers who deserve it, but by in large, the term is used by companies to flatter code monkeys making gambling apps, spyware, social media skinner boxes, etc. I am not without sin here, so I refuse to call myself an engineer.
  - tdeck 5y ago
    Those other engineering professions some harmful things too. Didn't engineers design prisons, casinos, nuclear weapons, land mines, plants that manufacture harmful chemicals, etc..? The only way to believe that these oaths make a difference is to ignore all those things. Anyway, at my university (CS/computer eng. major) everyone in the engineering school goes through the same induction ceremony that I think had a similar oath. I still have the Wash. U. Engineer's Creed card in my wallet. I vaguely remember that Tau Beta Pi had a similar thing. Honestly, I appreciate the ideals, but I don't think the oath made folks from my program any more ethical than those from other schools.
    - m0zg 5y ago
      All of the things you've listed aren't universally bad. Prisons keep bad people out of society (and yes, I'm aware that some folks shouldn't be in prison, and I wish that'd change, but majority are in the clink for violent crime). Nuclear weapons ensure superpowers can't attack each other - that's why we haven't had a world war in the past 76 years in spite of some pretty crazy tensions. Land mines make land invasions difficult and protect those who installed them. Harmful chemicals usually are not made just for the harm - they have their own useful functions. So I'd draw the line much further than that: somewhere near biological and chemical weapons which have no useful function at all, and do not help with maintaining peace.
      - vasco 5y ago
        The fact you can justify land mines says it all about the ability of some oath to ensure anything about the behaviour of large groups of people.
        m0zg 5y ago
        Yes, soldiers on the battlefield are very thankful for the land mines, assuming they're the ones who installed them. With any luck a dude from the other side might not be able to cross the field and slit their throats in the dead of the night. Just as pilots are thankful for fighter jets not crapping out in mid-air, and nuclear submarine sailors are thankful for the engineering that went into the hull, and a gunner is thankful for the shells which don't explode in the barrel of a howitzer. War is hell, but if you're going to win it (or even deter it), you'll need engineers who know how to design weapons. And this is not the kind of game that you can just decline to participate in unless you'd like to learn a foreign language in a concentration camp.
MikeTheGreat 5y ago
It's possible that United States engineers still do this... but software "engineering" is famously (and self-deprecating-ly) not really "real engineering". I say this as someone who programs, teaches programming/computer science, and has worked professionally as a software development engineer - the comment isn't made to denigrate anyone, but because software "engineering" doesn't have any certification / professional credentialing that "real" engineering (e.g., civil engineering) apparently does have. Also - I'm curious about how effective it is to tell the engineers to do the right thing (even at the expense of personal gain). It seems like the people most responsible for making decisions that build harmful products aren't the ones who are actually tasked with building the harmful products. Does anyone have any information about how effective such training / indoctrination is in preventing bad situations from happening?
- jareklupinski 5y ago
  one thing that I found works: religion. ask the engineer about to enter the arena what they would like to do with the money they hope to achieve, their end-goals, etc. then follow-up with whether they would feel morally/spiritually at peace with their choices and methods after the fact (do your ends justify your means?) in my experience, the people with the IQ to earn a yacht responsibly end up settling for a speedboat anyway.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It certainly does, just not in US. https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especialidades/informatica/ https://www.ordemengenheiros.pt/pt/a-ordem/colegios-e-especi... No Portuguese university is allowed to call their computing degrees engineering without their approval, and in certain kinds of state related projects, the one putting their signature into the legal contracts has to have the professional title acknowledged. Germany and Switzerland have a similar process for those carrying engineering on their title. Either that or you have done it via a trade school, and people on the job have to have a kind of teaching certification for the school to approve the company as teaching place.
  - hahajk 5y ago
tablespoon 5y ago
> Maybe we have to teach some of these upstarts about Therac-25 and depress another generation just to keep the harm from spreading :( IIRC, they do, and it doesn't work. The "Californian Ideology" has a strong hold on the tech world and it's incompatible with that kind duty,

danjac 5y ago

Sadly there's always enough smart sociopaths willing to work for a fat pay cheque or to learn "interesting" tech. "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department,"says Wernher von Braun."

tjpnz 5y ago

>Irony is Facebook will not attract the talent it needs to work constructively on these unsolvable problems. At some point the brand will become so toxic that engineers who've worked there could find themselves persona non grata in many tech roles.

hef19898 5y ago
Unfortunately I think other companies would still be happy hiring ex FB developers. They still are ex FAANG, and they showed to give moral and principle the rear seat when it comes to revenue and business. Why wouldn't these folks be hireable?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Personally, when I see FB on a resume, it’s a factor. I want people who will help push the company in a healthy direction. There’s always pressure to make changes to the app that increase addictiveness without adding actual value to the client, and I’m proud to work somewhere where colleagues push back on that kind of thing. Working at FB is a (relatively weak) signal that they won’t be that kind of colleague. It will come up in the interview. If they can convince me that they stayed there in a ‘change it from within’ capacity, great. Otherwise, yeah it’s a negative signal.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> At some point the brand will become so toxic that engineers who've worked there could find themselves persona non grata in many tech roles. The majority of startups is still "growth and engagement" as opposed to producing real products/services that people pay for, so ex-Facebook is the perfect match.

tomjen3 5y ago

Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them.

ahartmetz 5y ago
Smart is not the same as cynical. Being cynical doesn't require that much intelligence.
jobigoud 5y ago
> Smart people know that you gain nothing by sacrificing yourself for society. Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them. Nothing? Not even a clear conscience? The "but someone else will do it" argument is used to justify so many wrong doings… We hear it all the time about fighting climate change, building unethical weapons, etc. You also have the choice to not personally actively contribute to whatever unethical thing is being discussed. It's a circular game theory problem, that "other person that will do it anyway" might also be justifying it because they think you would do it if they didn't.
lowkey_ 5y ago
> Investment banking has no problem attracting smart people. I've worked in banking and my ex worked for Facebook, and I genuinely don't see the comparison beyond rather inaccurate tropes. Bankers aren't tearing apart society and sowing division like Facebook is.
- ryan93 5y ago
  Trump lost his second term. I think society was actually torn apart during the civil war.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
> Even if you cared enough to say no, all that would happen is that Facebook would pay somebody else to work for them. Serious question: Do you vote? Because this argument seems like people who say “my vote doesn’t matter, it’s just one vote out of millions.” It’s true that at the individual level, one vote basically never makes the difference, but elections are won and lost. In the same way, if one person says no, maybe it will barely make a difference, but teams are made of more than one person.

DrBazza 5y ago

I've been approached by FB recruiters 3 times and turned them down 3 times. I've removed FB from all my devices except one. The only thing keeping me on the platform is that my sports clubs use it to organise matches and runs. I check FB once a day. All notifications are off. I really don't want anything to do with them. I'd still work for a military software developer. But not Facebook. Frankly, I was also surprised recently, though I shouldn't be, that there are (or were) some quite 'famous' developers / comp-sci researchers working there.

amelius 5y ago
> I really don't want anything to do with them. I'd still work for a military software developer. But not Facebook. Would you use open source packages developed by them?
- DrBazza 5y ago
  Interesting. I probably would. Though I haven’t knowingly done so, so far.

tubby12345 5y ago

The idea that FB will become a radioactive brand is wishful thinking that people indulge in with every new FB "scandal". Recruiting (yes even from "target" schools) hasn't slowed one bit. And regarding eg FAIR: The ones that have started murmuring about jumping ship are not the ones that are excellent but the ones that have outsized ideas of themselves as do-gooders.