7 ms·

You have no right to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

by angelzen 5y ago

actually_a_dog 5y ago
You have no right to spread disease and exacerbate a public health emergency.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Permanent public health emergency. What is the long term plan? Our current vaxxing target (or boosting, I lost track) is at 98% of the population. Soon we'll be at 105% and beyond. Then what? Edit: Reformulated for clarity (hopefully), quoting recent remarks by the President. Now that I read the transcript, the content is a bit muddy, but clearly he thinks 75% vaccination rate target is too small and 96/97/98 vaccination rate is laudable. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/09/27/remarks-by-president-biden-while-receiving-a-covid-19-booster-shot https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... Q How many — how many Americans need to be vaccinated for us to go back to normal? Like what is the percentage of total vaccinations that have to be deployed? THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think — look, I think we get the vast majority — like is going on in so many — some industries and some schools — 96, 97, 98 percent. I think we’re getting awful close. But I’m not the scientist. I think — but one thing for certain: A quarter of the country can’t go unvaccinated and us not continue to have a problem.
  - caslon 5y ago
    It's actually only around 60% of the nation that's got a single dose or more. We aren't anywhere close to 98%.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      Specifically, 55.07% (fully) and 8.47% (partially). (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)
    - oyashirochama 5y ago
      He likely means the Adult and eligible population, we are close to 80% if not higher that has at least a single dose.
      - angelzen 5y ago
        I meant vaccination targets, according to recent remarks by the President. I edited the OP accordingly.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - munk-a 5y ago
    This pandemic isn't a scenario in a board game where the rules are clear cut and easy to parse. A lot of the "wishy-washy"-ness that people attribute to the CDC is actually just them responding to the changing situation on the ground. People demand to know what percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated to return to normal so answers are given - but those answers will change as our understanding evolves. Vaccinations save lives - and not only your own. Do it.
lovich 5y ago
Certainly, and you have no right to walk around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies.
- mistermann 5y ago
  There are human "rights", and then there is Mother Nature's reality. Rather than thread after thread of arguing over whose fault it is and taking potshots at our respective outgroups, perhaps we should instead consider finding The Experts on reality. Perhaps they do not exist, just as we once did not have various other experts.
  - lovich 5y ago
    I do not understand what point you are trying to make in response to my comment
    - mistermann 5y ago
      If you/society do not like people walking around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies, then perhaps you and society should do something about it. For example, when the covid virus broke out on the scene, some experts developed a vaccine that seems to be pretty darn good at rectifying the situation. Now there seems to be a related but different problem: a fair amount of people who are opposed to taking that vaccine (walking around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies), so perhaps a similar approach should be taken: find some people with expertise in the problem, and let them do their thing (maybe throw a few ten or hundred million at them to grease the wheels). As it is, the people who have been tasked with this job seem to be not performing up to the expectations of lots of people, so it might be a good idea to start looking for some who can.
      - lovich 5y ago
        We(society) are doing something about it. The convincing based on logic is over and now economic pressure and choosing who or who not to associate with is occurring. I am sorry that you can’t have your hand held every step of the way as you and your group continually shit on everything and put the rest of us at risk. Sucks to suck for everyone who loses their job cause they want to take a stance. They’ll be remembered as martyrs should they be proven right, but I wouldn’t put money on it.
caslon 5y ago
I agree in theory, but... we as a nation already crossed that boundary ages ago. Kids can't consent to anything, adults can't do certain drugs, adults also can't drink or smoke if they're under 21, and a lot of this isn't even recent. World War II saw the nation doing a lot of gymnastics to avoid letting people do things with their bodies. Further, we already ban certain forms of abortion, and it's not universally controversial that we do. I think you're arguing from a fictional frame of reference. Ideologically I'm somewhere in the right half of the spectrum, and even I'll admit that the state has absolutely taken the right to bodily autonomy, and I don't think it's a universally bad thing.
- angelzen 5y ago
  That is a good point. I used to fantasize of living in a fictional world where there is such a thing as inalienable human rights. I struggle to swallow the hard pill that a disease with a survival rate of 99.9% in under 65s has upended that fiction. (BTW, I am not facetious, and the coming winter risks being brutal). I have long suspected that the modern 80 year life expectancy was a grand illusion. I wonder if the covid pandemic is Mother Nature's way of signalling that the party is over and it's time to return to 'Gaudeamus igitur, Iuvenes dum sumus'. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
  - lovich 5y ago
    Look, if you could actually show up with actual bodily autonomy then this would be a different conversation. The fact of the matter is that no one is capable of being autonomous in the face of communicable diseases because if you are infected you turn into a factory for the disease that affects everyone else. Citing a 99.9% survival rate is disingenuous when it’s infecting everyone. That’s blatantly obvious with Covid shooting up to 2-3 place for cause of death and if recall correctly one of those other major causes of death it’s competing with is cancer which is actually a basket of diseases with unrelated causes. Even with the vaccine “mandate” the US gov has set, you still have the option to get tested frequently and not be vaccinated. You can’t refuse the vaccine, refuse to get tested and prove you are immune, and want to walk around uninhibited in public when you could be carrying this disease. That’s not bodily autonomy that’s just saying “fuck you I do what I want” to society, so don’t be surprised when claims of “my body, my choice” or clamoring about rights falls on deaf ears to the rest of society
jackson1442 5y ago
We actually do this quite a bit here in the States (and abroad)! * Children are required to be vaccinated against several diseases before attending public school * In Texas (TEXAS!), all university students attending in-person must present proof of a meningitis vaccine * To travel to many countries you need to present a “yellow card” demonstrating vaccination status against specific diseases.
betterunix2 5y ago
Yeah, because in the USA nobody ever instituted vaccine mandates until COVID happened. Oh wait, sorry, I forgot about all the vaccines we require children to receive before they can go to school.
- etchalon 5y ago
  It's amazing how vaccine mandates weren't freedom stealing socialism until now.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Until now, which vaccines did you have to show a vaccine card and photo ID to prove you have every time you go to a restaurant?
    - etchalon 5y ago
      Until now, what public health crisis would have necessitated it?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > Oh wait, sorry, I forgot about all the vaccines we require children to receive before they can go to school. Weren't those just for public schools? If someone was homeschooled, couldn't they have made it to adulthood without those vaccines, and then never again be asked about them?
mcguire 5y ago
Likewise, they have the responsibility not to harm other people with their bodies.

You have no right to tell other people what to do with their bodies.

actually_a_dog 5y ago

You have no right to spread disease and exacerbate a public health emergency.

angelzen 5y ago
Permanent public health emergency. What is the long term plan? Our current vaxxing target (or boosting, I lost track) is at 98% of the population. Soon we'll be at 105% and beyond. Then what? Edit: Reformulated for clarity (hopefully), quoting recent remarks by the President. Now that I read the transcript, the content is a bit muddy, but clearly he thinks 75% vaccination rate target is too small and 96/97/98 vaccination rate is laudable. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/09/27/remarks-by-president-biden-while-receiving-a-covid-19-booster-shot https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... Q How many — how many Americans need to be vaccinated for us to go back to normal? Like what is the percentage of total vaccinations that have to be deployed? THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think — look, I think we get the vast majority — like is going on in so many — some industries and some schools — 96, 97, 98 percent. I think we’re getting awful close. But I’m not the scientist. I think — but one thing for certain: A quarter of the country can’t go unvaccinated and us not continue to have a problem.
- caslon 5y ago
  It's actually only around 60% of the nation that's got a single dose or more. We aren't anywhere close to 98%.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    Specifically, 55.07% (fully) and 8.47% (partially). (https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)
  - oyashirochama 5y ago
    He likely means the Adult and eligible population, we are close to 80% if not higher that has at least a single dose.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      I meant vaccination targets, according to recent remarks by the President. I edited the OP accordingly.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- munk-a 5y ago
  This pandemic isn't a scenario in a board game where the rules are clear cut and easy to parse. A lot of the "wishy-washy"-ness that people attribute to the CDC is actually just them responding to the changing situation on the ground. People demand to know what percentage of the population needs to be vaccinated to return to normal so answers are given - but those answers will change as our understanding evolves. Vaccinations save lives - and not only your own. Do it.

lovich 5y ago

Certainly, and you have no right to walk around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies.

mistermann 5y ago
There are human "rights", and then there is Mother Nature's reality. Rather than thread after thread of arguing over whose fault it is and taking potshots at our respective outgroups, perhaps we should instead consider finding The Experts on reality. Perhaps they do not exist, just as we once did not have various other experts.
- lovich 5y ago
  I do not understand what point you are trying to make in response to my comment
  - mistermann 5y ago
    If you/society do not like people walking around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies, then perhaps you and society should do something about it. For example, when the covid virus broke out on the scene, some experts developed a vaccine that seems to be pretty darn good at rectifying the situation. Now there seems to be a related but different problem: a fair amount of people who are opposed to taking that vaccine (walking around spreading viruses that affect other’s bodies), so perhaps a similar approach should be taken: find some people with expertise in the problem, and let them do their thing (maybe throw a few ten or hundred million at them to grease the wheels). As it is, the people who have been tasked with this job seem to be not performing up to the expectations of lots of people, so it might be a good idea to start looking for some who can.
    - lovich 5y ago
      We(society) are doing something about it. The convincing based on logic is over and now economic pressure and choosing who or who not to associate with is occurring. I am sorry that you can’t have your hand held every step of the way as you and your group continually shit on everything and put the rest of us at risk. Sucks to suck for everyone who loses their job cause they want to take a stance. They’ll be remembered as martyrs should they be proven right, but I wouldn’t put money on it.

caslon 5y ago

I agree in theory, but... we as a nation already crossed that boundary ages ago. Kids can't consent to anything, adults can't do certain drugs, adults also can't drink or smoke if they're under 21, and a lot of this isn't even recent. World War II saw the nation doing a lot of gymnastics to avoid letting people do things with their bodies. Further, we already ban certain forms of abortion, and it's not universally controversial that we do. I think you're arguing from a fictional frame of reference. Ideologically I'm somewhere in the right half of the spectrum, and even I'll admit that the state has absolutely taken the right to bodily autonomy, and I don't think it's a universally bad thing.

angelzen 5y ago
That is a good point. I used to fantasize of living in a fictional world where there is such a thing as inalienable human rights. I struggle to swallow the hard pill that a disease with a survival rate of 99.9% in under 65s has upended that fiction. (BTW, I am not facetious, and the coming winter risks being brutal). I have long suspected that the modern 80 year life expectancy was a grand illusion. I wonder if the covid pandemic is Mother Nature's way of signalling that the party is over and it's time to return to 'Gaudeamus igitur, Iuvenes dum sumus'. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths#deaths-by-age https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
- lovich 5y ago
  Look, if you could actually show up with actual bodily autonomy then this would be a different conversation. The fact of the matter is that no one is capable of being autonomous in the face of communicable diseases because if you are infected you turn into a factory for the disease that affects everyone else. Citing a 99.9% survival rate is disingenuous when it’s infecting everyone. That’s blatantly obvious with Covid shooting up to 2-3 place for cause of death and if recall correctly one of those other major causes of death it’s competing with is cancer which is actually a basket of diseases with unrelated causes. Even with the vaccine “mandate” the US gov has set, you still have the option to get tested frequently and not be vaccinated. You can’t refuse the vaccine, refuse to get tested and prove you are immune, and want to walk around uninhibited in public when you could be carrying this disease. That’s not bodily autonomy that’s just saying “fuck you I do what I want” to society, so don’t be surprised when claims of “my body, my choice” or clamoring about rights falls on deaf ears to the rest of society

jackson1442 5y ago

We actually do this quite a bit here in the States (and abroad)! * Children are required to be vaccinated against several diseases before attending public school * In Texas (TEXAS!), all university students attending in-person must present proof of a meningitis vaccine * To travel to many countries you need to present a “yellow card” demonstrating vaccination status against specific diseases.

betterunix2 5y ago

Yeah, because in the USA nobody ever instituted vaccine mandates until COVID happened. Oh wait, sorry, I forgot about all the vaccines we require children to receive before they can go to school.

etchalon 5y ago
It's amazing how vaccine mandates weren't freedom stealing socialism until now.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Until now, which vaccines did you have to show a vaccine card and photo ID to prove you have every time you go to a restaurant?
  - etchalon 5y ago
    Until now, what public health crisis would have necessitated it?
josephcsible 5y ago
> Oh wait, sorry, I forgot about all the vaccines we require children to receive before they can go to school. Weren't those just for public schools? If someone was homeschooled, couldn't they have made it to adulthood without those vaccines, and then never again be asked about them?

mcguire 5y ago

Likewise, they have the responsibility not to harm other people with their bodies.