16 ms·
The code worked differently when the moon was full
- woliveirajr 5y ago> Not strictly the cycle of the moon but close. Meh. Just the old 49.7 days cycle that it takes to overflow 32 bits when measuring miliseconds. I was hoping for a "it works when I buy vanilla icecream and doesn't when I buy other flavour".
- swid 5y agoI was also hoping the title was more accurate. In the lines of the famous story of not being able to send an email 500 miles. https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
- nashashmi 5y agoI always thought the problem was obvious by the title. And felt good about myself for a long time after I read it. Now that I am well into adulthood knowing does not seem that amazing.
- pininja 5y agoThanks for sharing, this is a great read!
- Johnny555 5y agoThe end of that article is a good reminder of the units command, I've been using Google for units conversion for so long that I forgot about the standalone units. It even comes standard with OSX.
- acidburnNSA 5y agoI love the GNU units program so much. I think I use it at least 4 times/week. It's useful for kitchen conversions and also quick nuclear fuel burnup calcs. For example I used it on this blog post covering the long-term sustainability of nuclear fuel resources on earth. https://whatisnuclear.com/blog/2020-10-28-nuclear-energy-is-longterm-sustainable.html#the-math https://whatisnuclear.com/blog/2020-10-28-nuclear-energy-is-...
- a1369209993 5y ago> It's useful for kitchen conversions and also quick nuclear fuel burnup calcs. Also electrical engineering and estimates of the feasibility of brute-forcing cryptographic primitives using the mass of the observable universe as fuel.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y agoInteresting kitchen you have. Calculating nuclear fuel burnup. I wonder what's cooking? Does it glow in the dark? ;>
- kergonath 5y ago> I wonder what's cooking? Yellow cake.
- dhosek 5y agoIs there an equivalent command for doing things like 147 days from today or days since 21 jun 2021 or 88 days after 15 Aug 2021? This is the one thing I really wish was in Spotlight (I use spotlight for unit conversion and calculations which is really handy).
- mark-r 5y agoI use the Python datetime module for stuff like that. Excel can be useful too, since it treats dates as a number of days.
- spiffytech 5y agoWolframAlpha works well for those types of calculations.
- pajko 5y agohttps://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html https://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadded.html
- dhosek 5y agoTo clarify, I was thinking a quick command line thing. Right now, I do it in a browser (both DuckDuckGo and Google produce the answer easily enough).
- zadwang 5y agoThe unix date command does this.
- randomswede 5y agoWell, GNU date does, BSD date may or may not. Linux box: $ date -d 'now + 4711 days ago' Thu Nov 6 06:57:20 UTC 2008 $ date --version date (GNU coreutils) 8.30 Copyright (C) 2018 Free Software Foundation, Inc. License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <https://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. Written by David MacKenzie. Mac: % date -d 'now + 4711 days ago' usage: date [-jnRu] [-d dst] [-r seconds] [-t west] [-v[+|-]val[ymwdHMS]] ... [-f fmt date | [[[mm]dd]HH]MM[[cc]yy][.ss]] [+format] I also seem to be unable to pull a version out of the Mac's date command.
- specialist 5y agoYes and: > Just the old 49.7 days cycle... I've encountered datetime bugs and learned to take preventative measures. I generally add a virtual clock shim to my projects, eg wrapping System.currentTimeMillis() or equiv. Then I write unit tests for anticipated edge cases. Like midnight, end/start of year, etc. To ensure reporting, rollups, logging, grooming, etc. are working correctly. Also allows me simulate elapsed time, so I verify out of order event processing and so forth.
- kalenx 5y agoNow, this is a true phase-of-the-moon bug: http://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/jargon300/phaseofthemoon.html http://ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/jargon300/phaseofthemoo...
- macintux 5y ago> Bugs based on a time calculations can often show themselves later when view through a longer lens and scope of time...sometimes WAY longer than you'd expect. When I worked for BBN in '97-'98, someone from outside the company as I recall came to talk to a room of engineers about the wide variety of calendar-related behaviors in various UNIX systems that were expected to cause problems for Y2K. It was a very, very long list, often subtle issues, and I recall the concern in the room about the number of old systems in use by the DoD and others. Anyway, no real point to this other than date handling is one of the hardest things to get right in computing, ranking right behind testing for the correct behavior.
- RegBarclay 5y agoDates are a pain. The date bug I committed with the longest tail was daylight time. It was all good until we got to a day with 25 hours when we "fell back."
- Jiro 5y agoI had one of those on my Pebble: https://github.com/mattrossman/forecaswatch2/issues/44 https://github.com/mattrossman/forecaswatch2/issues/44
- DougN7 5y agoYou are most definitely not alone with that exact bug. Welcome to the club! :)
- randomswede 5y agoBe happy you didn't have to deal with week numbers. IIRC, a Norwegian bank ended up having an outage because part of the code could not cope with the 53rd week in a year.
- huachimingo 5y agoFunny enough, Nethack[1] had this implemented too (w:spoilers). See also wmoonclock[2](wmaker) for a nice "moon-clock". [1]https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Time https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Time [2]https://www.dockapps.net/wmmoonclock https://www.dockapps.net/wmmoonclock
- tux3 5y agoTangentially related, here's another fun bug that inexplicably cares what time it is: Open Office cannot print on Tuesdays (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161/comments/28 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161...)
- invalidusernam3 5y agoA bit unrelated, but another fun one, "We can't send mail more than 500 miles": https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
- justusthane 5y agoI love the 500 mile email bug! I read another one years ago about a server that would inexplicably crash, and it turned out to be due to stepping on a particular floor tile in the server room. I wish I could find that one.
- rzzzt 5y agoThe "magic" switch: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
- stavros 5y agoThat story disappoints me a bit in that they never found the cause.
- mhandley 5y agoThe phase of the moon really can affect performance. A friend of mine worked on wireless links in Scotland and was struggling with loss at certain times of day, but not exactly the same time every day. When they graphed loss against time, the pattern was really periodic over many days. The periodicity turned out to be 12 hours 25 minutes, which they eventually realized is exactly the time between low tides. The problem was at low tide the reflected path off the water interfered with the line-of-sight path causing signal fading, whereas at high tide it interfered much less. In particular, see figure 2 of their paper for the correlation between tide height and SNR: https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mmarina/papers/EDI-INF-RR-1365.pdf https://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/mmarina/papers/EDI-INF-RR-136... As tide height really does depend on the phase of the moon, presumably their loss did too, if they measured for long enough.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- pedrocr 5y agoCool result. That figure 2 is begging for a scatter plot of SNR and tide level to see how well correlated they are.
- abkfenris 5y agoI remember reading that paper when I was trying to figure out why we were having issues with a wireless link down in the Patagonia fjords. Unfortunately we didn't have the hardware or enough control over the link (it took negotiating access with armed forces to work on either end) to try to implement any of their ideas.
- m4rtink 5y agoI heard a story about an astronomer loosing the chance to be the first to report a commet one cold winter night - just as he wanted to send the email to report it, the Internet connection was dead! He ran from the observatory to the nearest place with Internet connectivity, but by the time he sent the email from there, there was already a report from another astronomer elsewhere, a few minutes ago. Reason for the mysterious network outage ? Thermal contraction! The observatory was connected to the Internet via an optical link to a highrise building in the city that contracted ever so slightly due to the very low temperature, moving the laser beam of the optical link out of alignment, shutting down the connection.
- btilly 5y agoI thought that this was going to be different story. There was a program I heard about back in the 90s which would literally crash depending on the phase of the moon! The story is that it wanted to print a date. The programmer happened to have an astronomy library available that gave a string containing the date. So the programmer called that, and then parsed out the date. Unfortunately the astronomy library wrote its result as a string to a point. The result included the phase of the Moon. The pointer was not declared to be long enough. And therefore, would crash if the name of the phase of the moon was too long!
- dllthomas 5y agohttp://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/P/phase-of-the-moon.html http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/P/phase-of-the-moon.html
- AceJohnny2 5y agoAs long as you don't traumatize the hard drives by yelling at them, feat. brendangregg & bcantrill: https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4 https://youtu.be/tDacjrSCeq4
- AceJohnny2 5y agoTangentially, my last company made sophisticated routers, dissipating ~3kW of heat. We had hard drives in them for persistent logs. There was a big problem where we needed to upgrade the fans to deal with the heat dissipation, but it was destroying the performance of the spinning disk HDDs due to the vibration of the fans. (these were 2U devices with 5 boards: 2 control-plane boards (1 active, 1 on stand-by for redundancy) & 3 data-plane boards (2 active, 1 stand-by))
- Dylan16807 5y agoSo I'd say the obvious solution would be suspending the drive on relatively big pieces of rubber, like https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/sc/a32b42cb-4f54-4914-8320-8aae62b27478.__CR0,0,300,300_PT0_SX300_V1___.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/sc/a32b42cb-... If it was a big problem, that must not have been viable? Too cramped?
- AceJohnny2 5y agoExactly, there was no room for the rubber dampeners that were the obvious solution, and much frustration from the engineers that this wasn't planned ahead.
- robocat 5y agoIn the analogue days, before pixels existed, a customer had trouble with their phone line not working when the moon was full. The problem was that they lived on the coast, and a subsurface junction box would get wet during king tides, causing the telephone line to fail.
- drdeadringer 5y agoReminds me of a story where a company's internet would regularly drop at the same time every day -- let's say 3pm. Nobody could figure it out so they called in an expert. After lots of attempts and figuring, one day the person in question happens to look out the window at the time in question ... and sees a service truck park exactly in line-of-sight between the business and their internet-signal pickup broadcast point. Ah ha!
- a-dub 5y agoi once lived in an apartment in an old building where if you turned on the light in the bathroom the dsl would lose sync. why this would occur i'll never know. (probably old telephone wiring wrapped around old 110v wiring? maybe? or who knows what kind of weird leakage/ground loops may have existed)
- enobrev 5y agoQuite a few years ago, I spent many hours making my way up the support tiers at Time Warner in Brooklyn to resolve some connection issues (cable modem). I patiently waded through each tier as they repeatedly asked me to reset my modem and my router and restart my computer and check every cable, etc. The same things I'd already done before (as an on-site tech myself, at the time) and as the previous support person asked me to repeat. Finally I made it to tier three, with someone who seemed obviously competent. Within about a minute, he checked the power usage on my modem and then historically, and knew immediately that if I moved my modem to another outlet, it would work. It did. Never had that type of connection issue again.
- Socketier 5y agoThis happened to me as well, only with DSL. The strip lights on the bathroom mirror (newly installed) would disconnect the internet when turned on. Such a weird thing to troubleshoot when you have a few people living in the same house.
- walrus01 5y agocheap AC to DC power supplies are very 'noisy' in the RF spectrum.
- veryfancy 5y agoI hoped this would be an article about nethack.
- NotaHera 5y agoElrond - 'There is moon programming here.. see?'
- vidanay 5y agoWe once had a customer who would call us in a panic a couple of times a year saying our inspection equipment was experiencing unusually high false rejects and they were generating very high scrap rate. By the time we got a technician on site the next day, everything was working flawlessly and the customer couldn't reproduce the problem either. This went on for almost three years with various levels of escalation to the current management. Finally, one day a technician was on site for another project when the customer came up to him and said "It's happening right now! Come fix it!" The technician rushed over to the equipment and discovered that the sun was shining at exactly the right angle to cause a lens flare in one of our cameras. This happened twice a year as the sun moved along its trajectory. A strategically placed piece of opaque plastic fixed it permanently.
- xsmasher 5y agoThis is like a real-world equivalent of the "cleaning lady unplugged the machine" urban legend.
- johnfn 5y agoI was going to say it was the real world equivalent of, like, Redwall, or one of those other fantasy books where an event happens once a year when the sun shines in exactly the right spot to illuminate some secret writing.
- SamBam 5y agoIndiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark.
- Izikiel43 5y agoThe hobbit
- mirekrusin 5y agoWitcher
- imglorp 5y agoSometimes the day star lines up directly behind your satellite or microwave dish and you have very poor snr for a few minutes.
- unanswered 5y agoSigned integers should be used as sparingly as floating-point. They should not be used in ordinary code because ordinary code has no use for them until they break something. The most notable exception would be languages which allow negative indexing, but IMHO if that were syntactic instead of relying on actual signed integers, it would be safer (I.e., [- $int] would be a different syntax from [(-$int)] and the latter would not be correctly typed.)
- acdha 5y agoI heard a great story a while back for a digitization project where historic content was being provided by many libraries around the world, including one in Russia. The quality of the scanned books was excellent, except for a weird distortion every so often where part of the page would be shifted partway through as if someone had shifted half the page in Photoshop. This was only noticed in books over a certain size so people were checking to see if there was some kind of mechanical problem with the scanner (these were robots with automatic page turners so it was plausible that there could be something which was only an issue past a certain position), trying to figure out of there was some way that the software had some kind of memory leak or other issue which would explain the long and inconsistent intervals. Eventually they were on a long-distance phone call to Moscow and not turning up anything when there was a loud rumble in the background. “What was that?” lead to the realization that the library's scan center was close to a subway tunnel. The vibration of a passing train was enough to cause a glitch but only if you happened to be scanning at the exact time it went by: the reason longer books were noticed was simply because having more pages meant that at any point in time a long book was more likely to be sitting in the scanner and the technicians running the scanner were apparently tuning out the trains as background noise. This was reportedly the first project they'd done with one of the scan robots which can process an entire book unattended so it was plausible that smaller past projects simply hadn't been scanning frequently enough to hit this problem or that some previous technician had noticed and immediately redone the page.
- ethbr0 5y agoI deal with this all the time at work. People are capable of tuning out frighteningly obvious things, if they happen with enough regularity for long enough.
- asdff 5y agoThis is why you see sensitive imaging equipment in labs on air tables. Sometimes the entire room is an air table.
- bartvk 5y agoNot a native speaker so I didn't know what an air table was. But since I've worked in labs, I recognized it from the picture accompanying the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_table https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_table
- _kst_ 5y agoAt a previous job, we used a bug tracking tool called "Remedy". On September 8, 2001, it started reporting dates incorrectly; its idea of the current date jumped back to 1973 and started advancing at 1/10 the normal rate. It used Unix timestamps (seconds since 1970) and assumed they could only be 9 decimal digits. When the time reached 10 digits, the last digit was quietly dropped. (It was fixed within a few days.)
- bentcorner 5y ago> What an interesting and insidious bug! Bugs based on a time calculations can often show themselves later when view through a longer lens and scope of time...sometimes WAY longer than you'd expect. My personal anecdote. I like playing online games, and as you know latency is the killer. I enjoyed playing in the evenings after work, and inexplicably I started noticing my latency spike from around 50ms to > 1s. Extremely frustrating. I had no idea what caused this so I set up a simple ping command and had it save it to a graph. Well, the next day I noticed the pings were steady throughout the whole day, then in the evenings I'd get these chunks of bad time. It turns out when my wife would watch Netflix in the other room (and it was only Netflix), it'd cause something to go awry with the router and latency would spike for me. (The really weird thing was that it was a combination of a Roku, Netflix, and a wired switch - change any of those and the problem went away). Later during the pandemic, I also diagnosed drop-outs on my network due to kids in my neighborhood being online during school hours. Like clockwork I'd get a bad network from around 10pm and it'd be fine ending around 3 or 4. On school holidays and weekends my network was fine.
- davidkunz 5y agoReminds me of the story where emails couldn't be sent more than 500 miles away: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- chongli 5y agoI'm immediately reminded of NetHack [1] (which you can play online here [2])! Real-life phase of the moon has a small but important effect on gameplay in NetHack. The public game server on alt.org even tracks the phase of the moon to provide a handy reference. A little bit disappointing to discover that the code from the article does not actually depend on the phase of the moon. I'm really interested to see the other stories here where it actually is the case that the phase of the moon is affecting people's code. [1] https://www.nethack.org https://www.nethack.org [2] https://alt.org/nethack/ https://alt.org/nethack/
- tclancy 5y agoSlightly related, I once wrote code for the old Kill Screen site that subtly altered the graphics of a review of a game themed around lunar stuff based on the current phase of the moon. God bless gusts of random math people leave about.
- lmilcin 5y agoI have seen interference from one part of set top box to cause noise on flash input lines and sometimes issue a command to clear flash on the device. Months of debugging, dozen people involved, tens of thousands of devices bricked, tens of millions lost. All due to a single line of code that configured flash to not require special magic before each command. This feature made to improve resistance to interference also hindered performance. Somebody thought it a good idea to disable to get some points for improved performance.
- lmilcin 5y agoI worked for satellite television. One of our servers would freak out once a year. It was found that the actual satellite was in line with sun at that time causing large amount if power sent over cable close to the server due to need to use backup antenna.
- buitreVirtual 5y ago> The code worked differently when the moon was full Sound like a case of werecode
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y agoI was expecting to see at least one joke along werewolves... (soft ware wolves... they turn bad on full moon)
- dougSF70 5y agoMy office internet drops out on my computer every afternoon at about 3pm....doesnt affect any other computer, just mine. I am getting Father Merrin in next week to give the place a proper going over.
- milliondollar 5y agoF'n A. Reading the comments on this thread makes me love humanity. So much ingenuity, raw engineering horsepower, creativity. Goddamn, you are great people and you should be proud of yourselves. Reading this makes me believe we will survive as a species.
- oceliker 5y ago> Did you know (I know because I'm old) that Windows 95, for a time, was unable to run longer than 49.7 days of runtime? Yep! Because foone did a whole month-long Twitter thread on it, even had a livestream showing the crash. https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1413694652822163459 https://twitter.com/Foone/status/1413694652822163459 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb46tX7-d_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb46tX7-d_o
- xook 5y agoIs there a database or "online myth/story" archive of wacky bugs like this and in the comments? These would make for great "cocoa at night" reading!
- eitland 5y agoI'm bookmarking this thread on pinboard because of all the good pointers here.
- fastssd 5y agoAdd this to your list: https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/9mk2o7/mri_disabled_every_ios_device_in_facility/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/9mk2o7/mri_disabl... spoiler: Helium messes with MEMS oscillator, causing iPhones to stop working (the clock signal is basically flatlined)
- eitland 5y agoDone, thanks. Will have to read it after work.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- davidhowlett 5y agoI enjoyed the collection at: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23005140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23005140
- rapiz 5y agoI was expecting that it really had something to do with the moon, though.
- NotaHera 5y agoElrond from the hobbit, "There is moon programming here.. see?"
- rramadass 5y agoNeat Thread! What i love about these problem-solving anecdotes is how a seemingly totally different domain is the key to the solution. It always makes me marvel at how interconnected everything in our World is. Strengthens my belief that "Cross-Disciplinary" knowledge is where "Wisdom" lies and is the key to our Future. “From a drop of water, a logician could infer the possibility of an Atlantic or a Niagara without having seen or heard of one or the other. So all life is a great chain, the nature of which is known whenever we are shown a single link to it.” --- Sherlock Holmes in A Study in Scarlet
- thadk 5y agoI've resolved several "celestial body" problems with routers and modems in East/West Africa over the years by pointing USB fans at them – between the sun and the workday generating heat with higher load in lower-end routers or insufficiently-air-conditioned units, can work surprisingly well to improve the network at almost no cost.
- rramadass 5y agoNeat Trick!
- vishnugupta 5y agoObligatory: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
- koonsolo 5y agoAt my work they had a server outage every so often, where it seemed to just go down (back in the 90s). Turned out the cleaning lady came in the evenings when there was no one there, unplugged the server before plugging in her vacuum cleaner. And then plugging the server back in.
- vanviegen 5y agoThis reminds me of something I lived through as a nerdy teenager working a summer job as first line IT support at the headquarters of a multinational, in the mid-90s... One day, I started receiving calls (through my pager!) from rather many people about intermittent networking problems. The state of the art 10mbit wired UTP network would have frequent bursts of 90% package loss. What was weird: only people on the fifth floor would have this issue..!? Our first thought was that they were on a single hub/switch that might have broken. But no, they were connected to the same uplinks as the computers on the problem-free surrounding floors. Furthermore, laptop users (who were of course also wired at the time) were reporting no problems whatsoever. We were pretty much out of ideas by that point, but did an experiment just to test our assumptions: we took a PC and hooked it up with a long network cable and a power extension cable on the fourth floor and started pinging it. Flawless. Then we started walking up the stairs, and, yes indeed, somewhere around halfway up the stairs packets started to drop. (But not at all times, sometimes it would be fine, like all PCs on the fifth.) If you want to guess at the cause, this is your chance. :-) We brought in a company specialized in EM interference. It turns out that a GSM antenna placed on the roof of the four story building opposite to ours about half a year ago, had just been turned on. Its height aligned to our fifth flour. Whenever someone was using this mast to make a call (which certainly wasn't all of the time back then), it would cause interference on a specific model of network card that we were using in all of our PCs. It had a relatively large metal component that was apparently a pretty good 900 MHz antenna. When confronted, the mobile operator quickly adjusted the antenna to not be directed at us. I believe all network cards were replaced soon after. Fun times!
- r618 5y agoi just lost several minutes of my life due to 32bit integer overflow. well done! .. and you expect anything sensible from politicians or journalists when even literal programmers spit out fake misleading and clickbait titles
- TriNetra 5y agoOnce in a while my PC performs several contiguous execution of a key pressed on my Bluetooth keyboard. At other times, it ends up missing some key presses. Upon investigation, I've discovered this usually happen when ceiling fan is running :).
- ciaron 5y agoI used to work in aerospace. One of my projects involved running avionics bench tests at a customer facility, basically the avionic subsystem of the aircraft in a big room on shelves. We were using a laptop for data logging and started getting dropouts in the data every 5 minutes. This was worrying because a) this hadn't happened at our site on similar equipment and b) this was a final customer-facing check before doing a real test flight. We spent about a week trying to debug the system and the software and at a certain point while I was just sitting and thinking about what to do next, Flying Toasters popped up in the data logging PC (the lid was normally closed because of the space on the bench). The Windows screensaver was hogging so much CPU that the datalogger couldn't keep up.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ranko 5y agoSee also a case where the hardware worked differently due to the moon https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/27/us/moon-is-blamed-for-blips-in-a-particle-accelerator.html https://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/27/us/moon-is-blamed-for-bli...
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- darekkay 5y agoI love/hate such bugs. Often hard to debug, but totally great to finally find the root cuase and a solution. I've once got a ticket stating "this script always crashes before 10 a.m." [1] [1] https://darekkay.com/blog/script-crashes-before-10/ https://darekkay.com/blog/script-crashes-before-10/
- aj_nikhil 5y agoGreat service poor business model.
- NotaHera 5y agoI think I'll post this again, because its funny.. Elrond from the hobbit, "There is moon programming here.. see?" For the person who is killing my post just because they think they can get away with it - no you won't. You'll be brought to justice for every wrong you do to someone else, whether you think you can get away with it temporary or it is in secret. There is a God, and He will judge such, and the wicked that do evil in secret because they think they will get away doing it are the lowest.