4 ms·

> Seems to more closely follow tax breaks and tax income It follows feasibility, AFAIK. All new manufacturing is in Southern US states because they're the ones

by ovi256 5y ago

> Seems to more closely follow tax breaks and tax income It follows feasibility, AFAIK. All new manufacturing is in Southern US states because they're the ones that allow new plants to be built. The others tie projects down in long, expensive, non-successful environmental studies. At this point, it's easier to bring water to the desert (Arizona) than get approval for a manufacturing facility in a non-desert.

IgorPartola 5y ago
A thousand years from now your last sentence will be a proverb if unknown origin.
- dntrkv 5y ago
  Israel, UAE, and the Saudis have figured it out, you really think the US can't? Arizona is close to the ocean and has plenty of sunlight. Solar power + desalination will make this a non-issue in the next 40 years.
  - lazide 5y ago
    UAE and the Saudis are desperately diversifying their economies and the royal families of those countries are desperately extracting wealth from those nations because they know their current approaches are fundamentally economically unviable without very high margin oil - and the market value, margins, and quantity available of that oil long term is highly suspect. Israel is also investing heavily in knowledge work and other high margin industries, as well as investing outside the country, in an attempt to get high margin, high value income to offset the dangerous economic risks they have, in part due to limited and expensive water - and which for very strong and fundamental religious reasons still gives a very, very strong incentive for them to stay and stay functional. Israel in particular has a history of wars and armed conflict around the Jordan River (November 1964 to May 1967 and others). There is a saying in the West - Whiskey is for drinkin', water is for fightin' - and it is very apparent how true it is if you watch how things develop over time. Water is life in the desert.
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    That’s not what I’m saying. I am saying that tax incentives will always create artificial conditions such that it’ll be cheaper to bring the mountain to Muhammad than Muhammad to the mountain (or ship a pair of sneakers half way a cross the world than to make them locally, or to build a water using plant in the desert than by the ocean). Globally centralized allocation of resources would solve this, but that’s not feasible for a whole number of reasons, so instead it’s every desert for themselves.
syshum 5y ago
There are many business friendly regions in the US with plenty of water. The mid-West for example. is pretty business friendly. KY, IN, TN, AR, MO, WV, and others all have plenty of water, and more business friendly laws than AZ
enkid 5y ago
It's more about seismic stability from what I've read. Arizona has much less severe weather than basically anywhere in the US.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Intel has built fabs in Arizona for a long time, this isn’t a new thing. They do this because of seismic stability and a lack of severe weather. Water isn’t a huge concern because they can internally recycle most of it.
- 1234letshaveatw 5y ago
  vs. somewhere like Ohio? It is hard to believe moderate snowfall would override environmental externalities such as cooling costs and water use.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    A thunderstorm will wreak havoc on a fab. A single, power blip lasting less a second can ruin whatever chips were being processed. At a minimum there will need to be additional testing done to ensure there is no hidden damage. The thunderstorms that central AZ gets are extremely isolated and basically only happen for about 6 weeks a year.
    - m4rtink 5y ago
      Don't they have any backup power to cover short blips ? Sure their power draw is massive, but given the potential loses one would exect sufficiently beefy and expensive backups in place so that a burned out generator in a power plant or tree on a line does not cost you billions.
      - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
        You would basically need to isolate yourself from the grid to be immune to any blips...it takes a while for a backup to come on line and even things out.
  - bsder 5y ago
    Salt is BAD. Sodium contamination messes up the threshold voltages of transistors. And the Northeast uses salt everywhere for snow and ice control and removal.
runako 5y ago
> All new manufacturing is in Southern US states because they're the ones that allow new plants to be built. New manufacturing is built in the South because that's where wages are low, worker protections are weaker, and there is less union activity. Companies will essentially tell you this in their PR about opening new plants.
kesselvon 5y ago
It's the lack of unions and cheap wages. Southern states are famously lax on workers rights and business regulations.
- rendang 5y ago
  Arizona is not a Southern state, and while it is a right-to-work state, the minimum wage there is higher than in most of the country.

by ovi256 5y ago

IgorPartola 5y ago

A thousand years from now your last sentence will be a proverb if unknown origin.

dntrkv 5y ago
Israel, UAE, and the Saudis have figured it out, you really think the US can't? Arizona is close to the ocean and has plenty of sunlight. Solar power + desalination will make this a non-issue in the next 40 years.
- lazide 5y ago
  UAE and the Saudis are desperately diversifying their economies and the royal families of those countries are desperately extracting wealth from those nations because they know their current approaches are fundamentally economically unviable without very high margin oil - and the market value, margins, and quantity available of that oil long term is highly suspect. Israel is also investing heavily in knowledge work and other high margin industries, as well as investing outside the country, in an attempt to get high margin, high value income to offset the dangerous economic risks they have, in part due to limited and expensive water - and which for very strong and fundamental religious reasons still gives a very, very strong incentive for them to stay and stay functional. Israel in particular has a history of wars and armed conflict around the Jordan River (November 1964 to May 1967 and others). There is a saying in the West - Whiskey is for drinkin', water is for fightin' - and it is very apparent how true it is if you watch how things develop over time. Water is life in the desert.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  That’s not what I’m saying. I am saying that tax incentives will always create artificial conditions such that it’ll be cheaper to bring the mountain to Muhammad than Muhammad to the mountain (or ship a pair of sneakers half way a cross the world than to make them locally, or to build a water using plant in the desert than by the ocean). Globally centralized allocation of resources would solve this, but that’s not feasible for a whole number of reasons, so instead it’s every desert for themselves.

syshum 5y ago

There are many business friendly regions in the US with plenty of water. The mid-West for example. is pretty business friendly. KY, IN, TN, AR, MO, WV, and others all have plenty of water, and more business friendly laws than AZ

enkid 5y ago

It's more about seismic stability from what I've read. Arizona has much less severe weather than basically anywhere in the US.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

Intel has built fabs in Arizona for a long time, this isn’t a new thing. They do this because of seismic stability and a lack of severe weather. Water isn’t a huge concern because they can internally recycle most of it.

1234letshaveatw 5y ago
vs. somewhere like Ohio? It is hard to believe moderate snowfall would override environmental externalities such as cooling costs and water use.
- brewdad 5y ago
  A thunderstorm will wreak havoc on a fab. A single, power blip lasting less a second can ruin whatever chips were being processed. At a minimum there will need to be additional testing done to ensure there is no hidden damage. The thunderstorms that central AZ gets are extremely isolated and basically only happen for about 6 weeks a year.
  - m4rtink 5y ago
    Don't they have any backup power to cover short blips ? Sure their power draw is massive, but given the potential loses one would exect sufficiently beefy and expensive backups in place so that a burned out generator in a power plant or tree on a line does not cost you billions.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      You would basically need to isolate yourself from the grid to be immune to any blips...it takes a while for a backup to come on line and even things out.
- bsder 5y ago
  Salt is BAD. Sodium contamination messes up the threshold voltages of transistors. And the Northeast uses salt everywhere for snow and ice control and removal.

runako 5y ago

> All new manufacturing is in Southern US states because they're the ones that allow new plants to be built. New manufacturing is built in the South because that's where wages are low, worker protections are weaker, and there is less union activity. Companies will essentially tell you this in their PR about opening new plants.

kesselvon 5y ago

It's the lack of unions and cheap wages. Southern states are famously lax on workers rights and business regulations.

rendang 5y ago
Arizona is not a Southern state, and while it is a right-to-work state, the minimum wage there is higher than in most of the country.