7 ms·

Also, part of the infrastructure bill gives $15,000 credit to new EV car purchases (if the manufacturer hires union labor). Musk is fighting this.

GrimRe 5y ago
No he isn't.
option 5y ago
This is a disgusting example of political lobbying by unions. Fords makes Mach-E in Mexico while Tesla makes cars sold in US in US. Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive??
- runako 5y ago
  "Every F-150 is proudly assembled at Ford’s Dearborn Truck Plant in Dearborn, Michigan, and Kansas City Assembly Plant in Claycomo, Missouri." [1] (Obviously, various quantities of parts for all vehicles assembled in the US will be imported. I do not know how Ford compares to Tesla in this regard.) 1 - https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/06/25/built-for-getting-things-done-ford-f150.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020...
  - natch 5y ago
    The post you replied to said Mach-E, not F-150. And assembly is not manufacturing. The sentence you quoted is making careful use of weasel words by zeroing in on assembly. Tesla brings in rolls of aluminum and steel (and other things) and puts out cars. Even the seats are manufactured in the same town. The motors are wound from scratch on site. Casting and stamping happens on site as well. Like you, I don’t know the full picture on externally sourced parts, but there are a lot fewer parts, and I do know weasel words when I see them.
    - runako 5y ago
      I stand corrected on the Mach-E. But automakers all necessarily focus on assembly because at a minimum the electronics are imported. It would be a good idea to know fractions of parts that were sourced domestically, but an effort to do this in the 80s failed because it's too easy to game and ultimately consumers do not really care.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  What I found is "Most recently, the US Senate Finance Committee passed a reform bill that would increase the tax incentive to $10,000 for EVs produced in the US, and to $12,500 for EVs produced in the US by union workers." That seems like a good deal to me, and the bonus money won't go to any mexico-made models.
  - natch 5y ago
    IANAL but I’ve heard that under the terms of our cross border agreements with Mexico, “Produced in the US” is a legal term that can also be applied to items manufactured by Mexican workers in special economic zones in Mexico on (the Mexico side of the) US border. In other words, take it with a grain of salt.
    - TheParkShark 5y ago
      I believe it also includes Canada.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  No one is excluded. Like all tax deductions/credits, this one incentivizes a goal decided on by the legislature. One major purpose of government is realigning incentives. If this makes it cheap enough, Tesla will likely use union labor; if not, they won't.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Tesla can't "use union labor" unless their employees vote to unionize... which they are perfectly free to do. Unless you are suggesting Tesla... threaten to fire their employees unless they unionize? That doesn't sound very worker-friendly.
    - GavinMcG 5y ago
      Not illegally firing them for trying to unionize would have put them on the right track. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board...
    - ghshephard 5y ago
      Honest question - don't you believe that Tesla Factories don't unionize because Tesla puts a significant amount of effort, manager training, and probably millions of dollars of investment into preventing them from unionizing? And, if Tesla stopped that effort - wouldn't they naturally unionize fairly quickly?
      - bpodgursky 5y ago
        Something like 13% of private-sector US workers are unionized... choosing to unionize is not some kind of default position. It's pretty rare. And not every employer is pushing hard to prevent it from happening. Most employees just aren't that unhappy and would prefer to work under their own contract w/o answer into another intermediary that gets a cut of their money.
        GavinMcG 5y ago
- ncallaway 5y ago
  > Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive?? This bill hasn't passed yet, so it's hard to speak definitively about it, but the current draft bill provides: a $12,500 rebate for vehicles that are: - assembled in the United States, - with union labor or a $7,500 rebate for most other electric vehicles https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-democrats-propose-ev-tax-credits-up-12500-2021-09-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-democrats-propose-... As such, being made and assembled in the United States would be a requirement for the $12,500 rebate.
kjksf 5y ago
Every car maker that makes car in US without union labor is fighting the union provision: Toyota, Honda, BMW. Why are you singling out Musk? And for the record: the last version of the bill is $7.5k + additional $4.5 if made by union. Car makers that don't use union fight the $4.5k union provision, not the whole credit. And for a good reason. The union provision would be historically unprecedented government handout to unions and potentially illegal. There are laws limiting what the government can do and this kind of discrimination of US workers that don't belong to union may very well cross the line.
seattle_spring 5y ago
Some politicians are fighting to get an income cap as low as $100k, which would all but kill the tax credit.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >as low as $100k Which is nearly 50% higher than the median wage. We cut down these incentives in the UK because they appeared to be a bung for the rich.
  - frumper 5y ago
    I have doubts that the lower 50% of wage earners buy new cars in general. I'm very doubtful that they would be buying any new electric vehicles.

GrimRe 5y ago

No he isn't.

option 5y ago

This is a disgusting example of political lobbying by unions. Fords makes Mach-E in Mexico while Tesla makes cars sold in US in US. Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive??

runako 5y ago
"Every F-150 is proudly assembled at Ford’s Dearborn Truck Plant in Dearborn, Michigan, and Kansas City Assembly Plant in Claycomo, Missouri." [1] (Obviously, various quantities of parts for all vehicles assembled in the US will be imported. I do not know how Ford compares to Tesla in this regard.) 1 - https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/06/25/built-for-getting-things-done-ford-f150.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020...
- natch 5y ago
  The post you replied to said Mach-E, not F-150. And assembly is not manufacturing. The sentence you quoted is making careful use of weasel words by zeroing in on assembly. Tesla brings in rolls of aluminum and steel (and other things) and puts out cars. Even the seats are manufactured in the same town. The motors are wound from scratch on site. Casting and stamping happens on site as well. Like you, I don’t know the full picture on externally sourced parts, but there are a lot fewer parts, and I do know weasel words when I see them.
  - runako 5y ago
    I stand corrected on the Mach-E. But automakers all necessarily focus on assembly because at a minimum the electronics are imported. It would be a good idea to know fractions of parts that were sourced domestically, but an effort to do this in the 80s failed because it's too easy to game and ultimately consumers do not really care.
Dylan16807 5y ago
What I found is "Most recently, the US Senate Finance Committee passed a reform bill that would increase the tax incentive to $10,000 for EVs produced in the US, and to $12,500 for EVs produced in the US by union workers." That seems like a good deal to me, and the bonus money won't go to any mexico-made models.
- natch 5y ago
  IANAL but I’ve heard that under the terms of our cross border agreements with Mexico, “Produced in the US” is a legal term that can also be applied to items manufactured by Mexican workers in special economic zones in Mexico on (the Mexico side of the) US border. In other words, take it with a grain of salt.
  - TheParkShark 5y ago
    I believe it also includes Canada.
GavinMcG 5y ago
No one is excluded. Like all tax deductions/credits, this one incentivizes a goal decided on by the legislature. One major purpose of government is realigning incentives. If this makes it cheap enough, Tesla will likely use union labor; if not, they won't.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Tesla can't "use union labor" unless their employees vote to unionize... which they are perfectly free to do. Unless you are suggesting Tesla... threaten to fire their employees unless they unionize? That doesn't sound very worker-friendly.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Not illegally firing them for trying to unionize would have put them on the right track. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/25/business/musk-labor-board...
  - ghshephard 5y ago
    Honest question - don't you believe that Tesla Factories don't unionize because Tesla puts a significant amount of effort, manager training, and probably millions of dollars of investment into preventing them from unionizing? And, if Tesla stopped that effort - wouldn't they naturally unionize fairly quickly?
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      Something like 13% of private-sector US workers are unionized... choosing to unionize is not some kind of default position. It's pretty rare. And not every employer is pushing hard to prevent it from happening. Most employees just aren't that unhappy and would prefer to work under their own contract w/o answer into another intermediary that gets a cut of their money.
      - GavinMcG 5y ago
ncallaway 5y ago
> Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive?? This bill hasn't passed yet, so it's hard to speak definitively about it, but the current draft bill provides: a $12,500 rebate for vehicles that are: - assembled in the United States, - with union labor or a $7,500 rebate for most other electric vehicles https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-democrats-propose-ev-tax-credits-up-12500-2021-09-11/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-democrats-propose-... As such, being made and assembled in the United States would be a requirement for the $12,500 rebate.

kjksf 5y ago

Every car maker that makes car in US without union labor is fighting the union provision: Toyota, Honda, BMW. Why are you singling out Musk? And for the record: the last version of the bill is $7.5k + additional $4.5 if made by union. Car makers that don't use union fight the $4.5k union provision, not the whole credit. And for a good reason. The union provision would be historically unprecedented government handout to unions and potentially illegal. There are laws limiting what the government can do and this kind of discrimination of US workers that don't belong to union may very well cross the line.

seattle_spring 5y ago

Some politicians are fighting to get an income cap as low as $100k, which would all but kill the tax credit.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>as low as $100k Which is nearly 50% higher than the median wage. We cut down these incentives in the UK because they appeared to be a bung for the rich.
- frumper 5y ago
  I have doubts that the lower 50% of wage earners buy new cars in general. I'm very doubtful that they would be buying any new electric vehicles.