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Ford to invest in EV and battery plants in Tennessee and Kentucky [pdf]

125 points by KoftaBob 5y ago

certnlyuncertn 5y ago
I think 2022 is going to be the year that we really see legacy car manufacturers come out with truly competitive EV options. I think the legacy manufacturers are targeting a different market than Tesla and you can see this with the F150 vs Cyber truck. The Cyber Truck is positioning itself as a lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck. Both are legitimate but distinctive markets. Legacy manufacturers are catching up on range. I think the next thing they'll need to tackle is charging network, but if they can do that I don't see Tesla's moat lasting as long as people expect once the EV market expands to the general public.
- jude- 5y ago
  The F150 is arguably a lifestyle truck these days. But that's okay -- it probably makes it easier to build an electronic version that can do what its owners expect of it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - kube-system 5y ago
    The F-series has traditionally had very strong commercial sales, even compared to other pickup trucks.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Yes and Ford caters to both markets. You can get a bare-bones F150 work truck with only federally-required features or you can get one that's as fully appointed as a Cadillac with comfort accessories.
      - syshum 5y ago
        Or you can get a happy medium... F150 is about the most customizable from the factory vehicle sold, one of the reasons it is soo popular.
- ajross 5y ago
  > I think 2022 is going to be the year that we really see legacy car manufacturers come out with truly competitive EV options. That was supposed to be 2021. And 2020 before that. And 2019. Remember in 2018 how GM was going to kill Tesla because the Bolt beat the Model 3 to market by like five months? (Remember when people genuinely felt the Bolt was going to be competitive with the 3?) > I don't see Tesla's moat lasting as long as people expect once the EV market expands to the general public. Maybe 2022 is the year. But... I'm not holding my breath.
  - sixQuarks 5y ago
    Exactly, these are such tired arguments by people that honestly do not keep up with Tesla. HN for some odd reason has a bias against Elon Musk and Tesla, a lot of people on here hope they fail. SMH
  - stephen_g 5y ago
    I think the moves to start banning the sale of ICE cars post 2030 or 2035 is going to start making a huge difference pretty quickly. There are definitely some compelling models on the horizon already, but now any laggards in the industry have to start moving right now. It still could take three or four years for EV prices to come down to being generally affordable across the industry, but I’m pretty excited about some of the cars due to release over the next six months or so.
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    > Remember in 2018 how GM was going to kill Tesla because the Bolt beat the Model 3 to market by like five months? Umm, no? That sounds like a straw man to me. I have been a Chevy Volt owner for a while now, and I love that car, and I certainly followed the news when the Bolt came along, and I don't remember anyone saying it was a "Tesla killer" (though, it's the Internet, I'm sure someone said that somewhere). I especially don't remember any "non-EV gearheads" (maybe EV gearhead is an oxymoron?) giving 2 shits about the Bolt. I contrast that with the F-150 Lightning or the Mustang Mach-E, where I have "truck lover" family members who have never cared about EVs putting down deposits for the F-150. Regardless of whether one chooses to anoint 2022 as "the year of X", it's clear to me that at least the EVs being offered (now or in the near future) by the legacy manufacturers are fundamentally way more compelling than previous options like the Bolt.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  This depends what you mean by "truly competitive". I work in this space and we're expecting the real turning point to be around 2025 for the mass market unless the infrastructure bill gets passed as-is with the massive incentive for BEVs, in which case it would pull that forward by ~1 year.
- GrimRe 5y ago
  Where are these cars going to come from in 2022? Which manufacturer is going to produce and sell more than 150,000 (i.e. 1/10th that of Tesla) next year?
- 01100011 5y ago
  I've been driving a 2019 Bolt for over a week now. I bought out the final year of the lease from a friend who didn't need the car anymore. Now I wish I had just purchased one. Battery scandal aside(affecting 13? vehicles so far), I'm really happy with the car. It has a couple small quirks, but so far so good. Granted, I've only been a passenger in a Tesla, but from what I've seen, GM is already competitive.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    I’ve test driven a few higher end EV, and the objection I can’t possible get past is the lack of physical controls. I guess Tesla made “everything on a touchscreen” popular, but I really hate it. I hate it in the Tesla, but it’s even worse in other models. The screen in the Tesla at least seems decently made to me, but the one in the Taycan I drove was a laggy PoS. From the drivers seat of the ICE car I currently drive, I can use my hands to control basically everything without taking my eyes off the road. This hasn’t been possible in any of the EVs I’ve driven. I think some of the more affordable models have more traditional central consoles, but I don’t really want a low end EV… I expect all my sales objections to EVs will disappear over time, as the technology and infrastructure improves. But that’s one I’m never getting over. I just can’t imagine I’ll ever buy a car where everything’s controlled by touch screens.
    - pmorici 5y ago
      I thought I would hate that too but got over it quickly with the Tesla. All the controls you need while driving are on the wheel voice control works really well too
      - prirun 5y ago
        As many times as speech-to-text on a phone has garbled my message, it gives me the shivers to think about controlling my car with voice commands. "NO! I only said inverse, not reverse!"
        pmorici 5y ago
- ethbr0 5y ago
  The biggest thing shooting Tesla in the foot is plug standard. Eventually, they'll have to adopt CCS in the US and switch over their chargers. Gas stations aren't iPhone power adapters. You can't sell more cars than GM + Toyota + Ford + Stellantis + Honda + Hyundai + Nissan. And eventually, they're all going to convert most of their lines to electric. At which point, new charger installs use the standard. At which point, customers start asking whether they'd buy a car with a standard charger, or a Tesla.
  - aksss 5y ago
    Sounds like there's a market for a Tesla dongle
    - Rebelgecko 5y ago
      You'd also have to figure out how to circumvent the Supercharger station's DRM
      - natch 5y ago
        It’s not so much DRM as authentication, seamless zero-user-interaction payment, safety, and charging protocols. You’d also need a Tesla account with a credit card on file, and the ability for your vehicle to identify itself as the vehicle associated with that account. Or… Tesla might just make it happen, in the future.
        bobthepanda 5y ago
        I feel like they will. Eventually, the market for EV will be so large that they may as well try and get everyone they can on the chargers, the same way that iTunes on Windows was primarily to grab a huge chunk of the digital music market.
    - pmorici 5y ago
      Supposedly Tesla already has one but they barely have capacity for there own fleet let alone everyone else’s and they are building superchargers at a rapid pace
- TrainedMonkey 5y ago
  I don't totally buy it myself, but there is a case for polar opposite market segment targeting. Cybertruck is positioning itself as a stainless steel workhorse capable of operating in in adverse conditions with little maintenance. Whether it will live up to Elon's forward looking statements is anyones guess. While F150 is positioning itself as electric truck for people who buy Ford trucks... which could be reduced to a lifestyle choice.
  - nappy 5y ago
    The hybrid F-150 with an onboard generator and all electric F-150 are being positioned for people who need to do serious work, like arc welding, or for whom a mobile power plant is useful.
    - natch 5y ago
      Didn’t the Cybertruck announce features like 220 power and built in compressor long before Ford marketing started copying the ideas?
  - rootsudo 5y ago
    Disagree, F150 is more for fleet, labor, handyman, "serious" work. The cybertruck looks cool, but it lacks many features that are needed for daily usage for an actual laborer/worker. Not at all bad, but working on the field, the cybertruck already falls short to Ford in many aspects.
    - cdash 5y ago
      I guess you haven't met modern truck owners.
      - tclancy 5y ago
        What does this mean?
        smiley1437 5y ago
- zz865 5y ago
  VW id4 rocks already
- devwastaken 5y ago
  Auto makers of old already did this years ago. They put subpar effort into vehicles, sell more of them because brand and existing supply chain, and people hate them. They pull it, and people love the gas models by comparison. We are already seeing this with bad batteries that catch fire spontaneously. They know this will happen, and given enough of it EV batteries will endure restriction if not outright ban from some roads. Ford, nor any other American manufacturer of old can change into a business of lithium batteries and EV design. They lack the R&D or care. You can't take engine nuts and tell them their next project is 4 DC motors with wheels and a big battery. Imagine the racing dialogue: "team A has the 1.1 5 firmware update, giving them a leading edge over team B with a 5% increase in 0 to 60!"
  - pornel 5y ago
    I think we're finally past that stage. Legacy automakers stopped stalling with showroom-only dorky space-ship-like prototypes, and half-assed ICE conversions with 10-hour charging (fast charging is fast now.) Automakers have shipped real EV "platforms" (VW MEB, Hyundai E-GMP) and models designed from ground-up to be EVs. These cars are really good.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck. The secret that Ford relies upon is that there are no work trucks. The vast majority of pickups in the US will never go off road. They will never pickup a load of lumber from a mill. They will never tow a rescue boat to the seaside. They are all lifestyle trucks. The lesser Ford pickups are cheap because they are essentially cars with large trunks and raised "high command" seating. The more expensive Fords are capable, but are still far more likely to be parked in a suburban garage than on a jobsite. Their sound systems cost more to manufacture than all their optional towing equipment. The secret sauce is to make a truck that looks and sounds tough enough for use in the bush but that in fact is cheaply constructed enough to sell to the masses. I'm not sure Tesla's efforts hit that Ford sweet spot.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    There absolutely are work trucks, but it's also true that Ford has variants of the F150 for people who want the "look" of a truck but will never take it off road or onto a job site.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      Also, it's important to differentiate "fleet" from "personal" work trucks. Fleet work trucks are Tacomas with tiny tires, no options, and maybe an extra toolbox in the back. Personal work trucks are however much profit someone needs to offset from operations this year.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Pavement prima donna is absolutely a category, but I'd say in the last 10 years the needle tends to run the other way. Since Japanese companies moved into the truck market, even the lowest trim domestics are exceedingly capable. And certainly more capable than they were in previous years. (An easy way to date is to see when GM and Ford started putting new engine designs in their trucks, instead of 70s/80s-ancestry powerplants, circa late-90s) It's a pretty competitive market. And as with muscle cars, competition has raised the level of everyone.
- johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago
  What if the legacy manufacturers used their dealership locations as charging stations? There sure are a lot of them all mostly next to major highways.
- nickik 5y ago
  > Cyber Truck is positioning itself as a lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck Why? Cybertruck is positioning itself as 'tough' even more so then F-150. Its price, and capacity for load and towing make it really good work truck. While many people use F-150 for lifestyle. In my opinion these are basically the same thing for both markets. Its really more about what design you prepare.
BryanBeshore 5y ago
Also, part of the infrastructure bill gives $15,000 credit to new EV car purchases (if the manufacturer hires union labor). Musk is fighting this.
- GrimRe 5y ago
  No he isn't.
- option 5y ago
  This is a disgusting example of political lobbying by unions. Fords makes Mach-E in Mexico while Tesla makes cars sold in US in US. Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive??
  - runako 5y ago
    "Every F-150 is proudly assembled at Ford’s Dearborn Truck Plant in Dearborn, Michigan, and Kansas City Assembly Plant in Claycomo, Missouri." [1] (Obviously, various quantities of parts for all vehicles assembled in the US will be imported. I do not know how Ford compares to Tesla in this regard.) 1 - https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/06/25/built-for-getting-things-done-ford-f150.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020...
    - natch 5y ago
      The post you replied to said Mach-E, not F-150. And assembly is not manufacturing. The sentence you quoted is making careful use of weasel words by zeroing in on assembly. Tesla brings in rolls of aluminum and steel (and other things) and puts out cars. Even the seats are manufactured in the same town. The motors are wound from scratch on site. Casting and stamping happens on site as well. Like you, I don’t know the full picture on externally sourced parts, but there are a lot fewer parts, and I do know weasel words when I see them.
      - runako 5y ago
jupp0r 5y ago
That's ~$1 million per worker. Sounds like they'll be building heavily automated factories.
- KoftaBob 5y ago
  Well keep in mind the bulk of that investment, which is over several years, goes towards the construction of the plants themselves, and the supply chain logistics to support those plants. The ongoing yearly costs for the 11k jobs salaries are a separate thing.
cwkoss 5y ago
Wow, that's 20% of Ford's market cap. They are going hard towards EV. Hope this works out well for them. How's the quality on their recent models?
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  The Mach-E has great reviews and anecdotally my friend with one loves it. The F-150 Lightning has great early reviews though it is still very early before most consumers can get their hands on one.
rmason 5y ago
The worst kind of problem in the car business is to have a hit and not be able to produce them. I told some Ford people over a year ago that I questioned the company's commitment to EV's. They asked why and I said that because they have no plans to build their own batteries. They have a hit with the Mustang EV with some dealers asking $20,000 over list for them ;<(. They will have even more success with the F-150 EV. Presently they can't produce near enough of them because of the chip shortage. But if that wasn't a limitation then batteries would be. Must be they've figured that out ;<).
- pmorici 5y ago
  They don’t produce more because they lose money on them and only make enough so the don’t have to buy credits from other manufacturers
ethagknight 5y ago
Memphis has slowly bled jobs for the past 60+ years, and we’ve been darn close to bleeding out since 2008. We’ve routinely lost corporate jobs to other headquarter cities, we’ve had outright corporate theft from the city including Delta Airlines stealing Northwest Airlines, lying to Congress under oath by saying the merger would not hurt competition and they wouldn’t close the hub (it did, they did). Not to say that Memphis “deserves” jobs, but other cities seem to get the government jobs handouts (namely, military or 3 letter mega-orgs), the big corporate “insider deals” due to better politicians and connections, and Memphis has been shut out de facto. The case for Memphis is just a phenomenal location within the US, excellent freights access via interstates, rail, FedEx super hub, and river, low cost of energy, cheap land and cheap labor. You would think this would mean something for corps looking to do business, but it’s been crickets. This is tremendous news for the region.
- bluedino 5y ago
  Ford should be making the plants in Michigan where it's based. They've shut down so many factories there over the last 30 years...
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    Wages are lower in the Deep South than they are in the Great Lakes area. Sometimes by a lot. That's why there's so many factories there - Boeing, VW, Toyota, etc.
    - tclancy 5y ago
      And there is a lot less union strength.
      - gremloni 5y ago
        The two things are related.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    A predecessor to Ford's Louisville Assembly Plant was one of the earliest Model T factories and Ford's Kentucky Truck Plant has nearly always been one of the largest truck plants in the company's portfolio. I'm sure Michigan is still important to Ford as well, but these aren't entirely new territories for Ford plants either.
runako 5y ago
IIRC, this is roughly equal to what Tesla spent from inception through achieving mass production of its EVs (e.g. with Model 3). Ford will lose some leverage on this investment due to their older bureaucracy, but they also don't have to start from scratch on aspects like design (they already know how to make F-150s well). This feels credible.
stonogo 5y ago
Sounds like all the hard work the governments of Tennessee and Kentucky have put into achieving labor-market equality with Mexico are bearing fruit.
- someperson 5y ago
  What do you mean? Are wages in those states equal to Mexico?
- jdhn 5y ago
  Kentucky already has a Ford truck plant, which is why they're building a plant there. I believe F-250s/F-350s are made there.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Also a predecessor to the Louisville Assembly Plant was one of the earliest big Model T factories, so Ford has a lot of history in Kentucky.
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    One of the issues stemming from this announcement is the precise location: it's in a region of approximately 1700 residents who have been vocal about how they aren't a fan of this choice because they LIKE being rural (doxxing myself with this source: local radio). The estimated job numbers that this would bring in is around 5000, which would significantly disrupt the local community if true.
aguasfrias 5y ago
"To invest" sounds great, but I'll believe it when I see it. For a long time now, American car makes have treated EVs like a second-class product compared to their gas models. Even if these plants go up on time, I don't think Ford is going to elevate the EV to parity with their gas models. It's hard to say for certain of course, but I believe part of Tesla's success is due to their commitment to the idea of the electric vehicle. With Tesla, I know I'm getting the best car Tesla can make because all Tesla makes is EVs. With Ford or GM or Toyota, I don't get that same impression. If I buy a Volt or an e-Mustang, I feel like I'm buying an inferior product. If Ford wants to win in this space, they need to change that perception.
elihu 5y ago
Good to hear about more domestic battery production coming online. I wonder what kind of cells these will be? They're partnering with SK Innovation, which appears to be a major battery manufacturer, but I haven't found anything about what kind of cells they make. I keep hoping we get more lithium iron phosphate production going in the U.S.. The energy density is a bit lower than other lithium ion chemistries, but it's been improving with new technology, and we really need more low-cost long-life cells to put in mass-market vehicles. LFP doesn't require cobalt or nickel, so it can be produced in higher volume than chemistries that do without running into resource bottlenecks. Tesla's approach is fine if you want to make a million cars. To make a hundred million cars requires a different approach, and that's the scale we should be thinking about.
- nickik 5y ago
  I don't have knowledge about this other then watching the industry closely. I would bet being pouch style cells using NCM811 or a further evolution there-off. > LFP doesn't require cobalt or nickel, so it can be produced in higher volume than chemistries that do without running into resource bottlenecks. I don't think raw resource availability is the major problem. Lithium refinement and cathode and anode production is more likely to cause issues. > Tesla's approach is fine if you want to make a million cars. Not sure what you are referring to here. Tesla uses the second most LFP cells as far as I know. Tesla already uses NCA, NCM and LFP and they are buying from the 3 largest suppliers, Panasonic, CATL and LG. In addition to that they will also produce their own cells with their own high nickel, and nickel-manganese chemistry. They are absolutely thinking how to make many millions of cars, be diversifying suppliers (including themselves), diversifying chemistries while trying to unify the format.
moneytide1 5y ago
This is awesome. Looking forward to deploying my labor on this front in the region I was born & raised after plenty of experience on 4th floor Tesla GF1 cooling tubes (they were forced by aging shareholders to mask me prompting my resignation because I refuse to be muzzled as a healthy heaving/efficient/necessary proletarian that builds this nation's assets with their bare hands). Still looking forward to a chance at acquiring the seemingly indestructible Cybertruck in 2025 (my Chinese Zodiac. Flimsy Model 3 frontal hardware destroyed by hydroplaning into guard rail [0] on original tires at 45k miles without rotation due to my negligence - that angular stainless steel body ain't gonna budge). [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/189Kyds9I5PL5UJTi_P6nDLv-PMOMYPCP/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/189Kyds9I5PL5UJTi_P6nDLv-PMO...
- moneytide1 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q3-jMJBO-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q3-jMJBO-Y
mixmastamyk 5y ago
Is anyone making an EV with good privacy?

125 points by KoftaBob 5y ago

I think 2022 is going to be the year that we really see legacy car manufacturers come out with truly competitive EV options. I think the legacy manufacturers are targeting a different market than Tesla and you can see this with the F150 vs Cyber truck. The Cyber Truck is positioning itself as a lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck. Both are legitimate but distinctive markets. Legacy manufacturers are catching up on range. I think the next thing they'll need to tackle is charging network, but if they can do that I don't see Tesla's moat lasting as long as people expect once the EV market expands to the general public.

jude- 5y ago
The F150 is arguably a lifestyle truck these days. But that's okay -- it probably makes it easier to build an electronic version that can do what its owners expect of it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kube-system 5y ago
  The F-series has traditionally had very strong commercial sales, even compared to other pickup trucks.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Yes and Ford caters to both markets. You can get a bare-bones F150 work truck with only federally-required features or you can get one that's as fully appointed as a Cadillac with comfort accessories.
    - syshum 5y ago
      Or you can get a happy medium... F150 is about the most customizable from the factory vehicle sold, one of the reasons it is soo popular.
ajross 5y ago
> I think 2022 is going to be the year that we really see legacy car manufacturers come out with truly competitive EV options. That was supposed to be 2021. And 2020 before that. And 2019. Remember in 2018 how GM was going to kill Tesla because the Bolt beat the Model 3 to market by like five months? (Remember when people genuinely felt the Bolt was going to be competitive with the 3?) > I don't see Tesla's moat lasting as long as people expect once the EV market expands to the general public. Maybe 2022 is the year. But... I'm not holding my breath.
- sixQuarks 5y ago
  Exactly, these are such tired arguments by people that honestly do not keep up with Tesla. HN for some odd reason has a bias against Elon Musk and Tesla, a lot of people on here hope they fail. SMH
- stephen_g 5y ago
  I think the moves to start banning the sale of ICE cars post 2030 or 2035 is going to start making a huge difference pretty quickly. There are definitely some compelling models on the horizon already, but now any laggards in the industry have to start moving right now. It still could take three or four years for EV prices to come down to being generally affordable across the industry, but I’m pretty excited about some of the cars due to release over the next six months or so.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  > Remember in 2018 how GM was going to kill Tesla because the Bolt beat the Model 3 to market by like five months? Umm, no? That sounds like a straw man to me. I have been a Chevy Volt owner for a while now, and I love that car, and I certainly followed the news when the Bolt came along, and I don't remember anyone saying it was a "Tesla killer" (though, it's the Internet, I'm sure someone said that somewhere). I especially don't remember any "non-EV gearheads" (maybe EV gearhead is an oxymoron?) giving 2 shits about the Bolt. I contrast that with the F-150 Lightning or the Mustang Mach-E, where I have "truck lover" family members who have never cared about EVs putting down deposits for the F-150. Regardless of whether one chooses to anoint 2022 as "the year of X", it's clear to me that at least the EVs being offered (now or in the near future) by the legacy manufacturers are fundamentally way more compelling than previous options like the Bolt.
mdorazio 5y ago
This depends what you mean by "truly competitive". I work in this space and we're expecting the real turning point to be around 2025 for the mass market unless the infrastructure bill gets passed as-is with the massive incentive for BEVs, in which case it would pull that forward by ~1 year.
GrimRe 5y ago
Where are these cars going to come from in 2022? Which manufacturer is going to produce and sell more than 150,000 (i.e. 1/10th that of Tesla) next year?
01100011 5y ago
I've been driving a 2019 Bolt for over a week now. I bought out the final year of the lease from a friend who didn't need the car anymore. Now I wish I had just purchased one. Battery scandal aside(affecting 13? vehicles so far), I'm really happy with the car. It has a couple small quirks, but so far so good. Granted, I've only been a passenger in a Tesla, but from what I've seen, GM is already competitive.
- AmericanChopper 5y ago
  I’ve test driven a few higher end EV, and the objection I can’t possible get past is the lack of physical controls. I guess Tesla made “everything on a touchscreen” popular, but I really hate it. I hate it in the Tesla, but it’s even worse in other models. The screen in the Tesla at least seems decently made to me, but the one in the Taycan I drove was a laggy PoS. From the drivers seat of the ICE car I currently drive, I can use my hands to control basically everything without taking my eyes off the road. This hasn’t been possible in any of the EVs I’ve driven. I think some of the more affordable models have more traditional central consoles, but I don’t really want a low end EV… I expect all my sales objections to EVs will disappear over time, as the technology and infrastructure improves. But that’s one I’m never getting over. I just can’t imagine I’ll ever buy a car where everything’s controlled by touch screens.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    I thought I would hate that too but got over it quickly with the Tesla. All the controls you need while driving are on the wheel voice control works really well too
    - prirun 5y ago
      As many times as speech-to-text on a phone has garbled my message, it gives me the shivers to think about controlling my car with voice commands. "NO! I only said inverse, not reverse!"
      - pmorici 5y ago
ethbr0 5y ago
The biggest thing shooting Tesla in the foot is plug standard. Eventually, they'll have to adopt CCS in the US and switch over their chargers. Gas stations aren't iPhone power adapters. You can't sell more cars than GM + Toyota + Ford + Stellantis + Honda + Hyundai + Nissan. And eventually, they're all going to convert most of their lines to electric. At which point, new charger installs use the standard. At which point, customers start asking whether they'd buy a car with a standard charger, or a Tesla.
- aksss 5y ago
  Sounds like there's a market for a Tesla dongle
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    You'd also have to figure out how to circumvent the Supercharger station's DRM
    - natch 5y ago
      It’s not so much DRM as authentication, seamless zero-user-interaction payment, safety, and charging protocols. You’d also need a Tesla account with a credit card on file, and the ability for your vehicle to identify itself as the vehicle associated with that account. Or… Tesla might just make it happen, in the future.
      - bobthepanda 5y ago
        I feel like they will. Eventually, the market for EV will be so large that they may as well try and get everyone they can on the chargers, the same way that iTunes on Windows was primarily to grab a huge chunk of the digital music market.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    Supposedly Tesla already has one but they barely have capacity for there own fleet let alone everyone else’s and they are building superchargers at a rapid pace
TrainedMonkey 5y ago
I don't totally buy it myself, but there is a case for polar opposite market segment targeting. Cybertruck is positioning itself as a stainless steel workhorse capable of operating in in adverse conditions with little maintenance. Whether it will live up to Elon's forward looking statements is anyones guess. While F150 is positioning itself as electric truck for people who buy Ford trucks... which could be reduced to a lifestyle choice.
- nappy 5y ago
  The hybrid F-150 with an onboard generator and all electric F-150 are being positioned for people who need to do serious work, like arc welding, or for whom a mobile power plant is useful.
  - natch 5y ago
    Didn’t the Cybertruck announce features like 220 power and built in compressor long before Ford marketing started copying the ideas?
- rootsudo 5y ago
  Disagree, F150 is more for fleet, labor, handyman, "serious" work. The cybertruck looks cool, but it lacks many features that are needed for daily usage for an actual laborer/worker. Not at all bad, but working on the field, the cybertruck already falls short to Ford in many aspects.
  - cdash 5y ago
    I guess you haven't met modern truck owners.
    - tclancy 5y ago
      What does this mean?
      - smiley1437 5y ago
zz865 5y ago
VW id4 rocks already
devwastaken 5y ago
Auto makers of old already did this years ago. They put subpar effort into vehicles, sell more of them because brand and existing supply chain, and people hate them. They pull it, and people love the gas models by comparison. We are already seeing this with bad batteries that catch fire spontaneously. They know this will happen, and given enough of it EV batteries will endure restriction if not outright ban from some roads. Ford, nor any other American manufacturer of old can change into a business of lithium batteries and EV design. They lack the R&D or care. You can't take engine nuts and tell them their next project is 4 DC motors with wheels and a big battery. Imagine the racing dialogue: "team A has the 1.1 5 firmware update, giving them a leading edge over team B with a 5% increase in 0 to 60!"
- pornel 5y ago
  I think we're finally past that stage. Legacy automakers stopped stalling with showroom-only dorky space-ship-like prototypes, and half-assed ICE conversions with 10-hour charging (fast charging is fast now.) Automakers have shipped real EV "platforms" (VW MEB, Hyundai E-GMP) and models designed from ground-up to be EVs. These cars are really good.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck. The secret that Ford relies upon is that there are no work trucks. The vast majority of pickups in the US will never go off road. They will never pickup a load of lumber from a mill. They will never tow a rescue boat to the seaside. They are all lifestyle trucks. The lesser Ford pickups are cheap because they are essentially cars with large trunks and raised "high command" seating. The more expensive Fords are capable, but are still far more likely to be parked in a suburban garage than on a jobsite. Their sound systems cost more to manufacture than all their optional towing equipment. The secret sauce is to make a truck that looks and sounds tough enough for use in the bush but that in fact is cheaply constructed enough to sell to the masses. I'm not sure Tesla's efforts hit that Ford sweet spot.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  There absolutely are work trucks, but it's also true that Ford has variants of the F150 for people who want the "look" of a truck but will never take it off road or onto a job site.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Also, it's important to differentiate "fleet" from "personal" work trucks. Fleet work trucks are Tacomas with tiny tires, no options, and maybe an extra toolbox in the back. Personal work trucks are however much profit someone needs to offset from operations this year.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Pavement prima donna is absolutely a category, but I'd say in the last 10 years the needle tends to run the other way. Since Japanese companies moved into the truck market, even the lowest trim domestics are exceedingly capable. And certainly more capable than they were in previous years. (An easy way to date is to see when GM and Ford started putting new engine designs in their trucks, instead of 70s/80s-ancestry powerplants, circa late-90s) It's a pretty competitive market. And as with muscle cars, competition has raised the level of everyone.
johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago
What if the legacy manufacturers used their dealership locations as charging stations? There sure are a lot of them all mostly next to major highways.
nickik 5y ago
> Cyber Truck is positioning itself as a lifestyle truck while the F150 is positioning itself as a workhorse truck Why? Cybertruck is positioning itself as 'tough' even more so then F-150. Its price, and capacity for load and towing make it really good work truck. While many people use F-150 for lifestyle. In my opinion these are basically the same thing for both markets. Its really more about what design you prepare.

BryanBeshore 5y ago

Also, part of the infrastructure bill gives $15,000 credit to new EV car purchases (if the manufacturer hires union labor). Musk is fighting this.

GrimRe 5y ago
No he isn't.
option 5y ago
This is a disgusting example of political lobbying by unions. Fords makes Mach-E in Mexico while Tesla makes cars sold in US in US. Why is the one who makes cars here and who is effectively the reason why this market exists at all should be excluded from the incentive??
- runako 5y ago
  "Every F-150 is proudly assembled at Ford’s Dearborn Truck Plant in Dearborn, Michigan, and Kansas City Assembly Plant in Claycomo, Missouri." [1] (Obviously, various quantities of parts for all vehicles assembled in the US will be imported. I do not know how Ford compares to Tesla in this regard.) 1 - https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/06/25/built-for-getting-things-done-ford-f150.html https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020...
  - natch 5y ago
    The post you replied to said Mach-E, not F-150. And assembly is not manufacturing. The sentence you quoted is making careful use of weasel words by zeroing in on assembly. Tesla brings in rolls of aluminum and steel (and other things) and puts out cars. Even the seats are manufactured in the same town. The motors are wound from scratch on site. Casting and stamping happens on site as well. Like you, I don’t know the full picture on externally sourced parts, but there are a lot fewer parts, and I do know weasel words when I see them.
    - runako 5y ago

jupp0r 5y ago

That's ~$1 million per worker. Sounds like they'll be building heavily automated factories.

KoftaBob 5y ago
Well keep in mind the bulk of that investment, which is over several years, goes towards the construction of the plants themselves, and the supply chain logistics to support those plants. The ongoing yearly costs for the 11k jobs salaries are a separate thing.

cwkoss 5y ago

Wow, that's 20% of Ford's market cap. They are going hard towards EV. Hope this works out well for them. How's the quality on their recent models?

WorldMaker 5y ago
The Mach-E has great reviews and anecdotally my friend with one loves it. The F-150 Lightning has great early reviews though it is still very early before most consumers can get their hands on one.

rmason 5y ago

The worst kind of problem in the car business is to have a hit and not be able to produce them. I told some Ford people over a year ago that I questioned the company's commitment to EV's. They asked why and I said that because they have no plans to build their own batteries. They have a hit with the Mustang EV with some dealers asking $20,000 over list for them ;<(. They will have even more success with the F-150 EV. Presently they can't produce near enough of them because of the chip shortage. But if that wasn't a limitation then batteries would be. Must be they've figured that out ;<).

pmorici 5y ago
They don’t produce more because they lose money on them and only make enough so the don’t have to buy credits from other manufacturers

ethagknight 5y ago

Memphis has slowly bled jobs for the past 60+ years, and we’ve been darn close to bleeding out since 2008. We’ve routinely lost corporate jobs to other headquarter cities, we’ve had outright corporate theft from the city including Delta Airlines stealing Northwest Airlines, lying to Congress under oath by saying the merger would not hurt competition and they wouldn’t close the hub (it did, they did). Not to say that Memphis “deserves” jobs, but other cities seem to get the government jobs handouts (namely, military or 3 letter mega-orgs), the big corporate “insider deals” due to better politicians and connections, and Memphis has been shut out de facto. The case for Memphis is just a phenomenal location within the US, excellent freights access via interstates, rail, FedEx super hub, and river, low cost of energy, cheap land and cheap labor. You would think this would mean something for corps looking to do business, but it’s been crickets. This is tremendous news for the region.

bluedino 5y ago
Ford should be making the plants in Michigan where it's based. They've shut down so many factories there over the last 30 years...
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  Wages are lower in the Deep South than they are in the Great Lakes area. Sometimes by a lot. That's why there's so many factories there - Boeing, VW, Toyota, etc.
  - tclancy 5y ago
    And there is a lot less union strength.
    - gremloni 5y ago
      The two things are related.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  A predecessor to Ford's Louisville Assembly Plant was one of the earliest Model T factories and Ford's Kentucky Truck Plant has nearly always been one of the largest truck plants in the company's portfolio. I'm sure Michigan is still important to Ford as well, but these aren't entirely new territories for Ford plants either.

runako 5y ago

IIRC, this is roughly equal to what Tesla spent from inception through achieving mass production of its EVs (e.g. with Model 3). Ford will lose some leverage on this investment due to their older bureaucracy, but they also don't have to start from scratch on aspects like design (they already know how to make F-150s well). This feels credible.

stonogo 5y ago

Sounds like all the hard work the governments of Tennessee and Kentucky have put into achieving labor-market equality with Mexico are bearing fruit.

someperson 5y ago
What do you mean? Are wages in those states equal to Mexico?
jdhn 5y ago
Kentucky already has a Ford truck plant, which is why they're building a plant there. I believe F-250s/F-350s are made there.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Also a predecessor to the Louisville Assembly Plant was one of the earliest big Model T factories, so Ford has a lot of history in Kentucky.
- jimmygrapes 5y ago
  One of the issues stemming from this announcement is the precise location: it's in a region of approximately 1700 residents who have been vocal about how they aren't a fan of this choice because they LIKE being rural (doxxing myself with this source: local radio). The estimated job numbers that this would bring in is around 5000, which would significantly disrupt the local community if true.

aguasfrias 5y ago

"To invest" sounds great, but I'll believe it when I see it. For a long time now, American car makes have treated EVs like a second-class product compared to their gas models. Even if these plants go up on time, I don't think Ford is going to elevate the EV to parity with their gas models. It's hard to say for certain of course, but I believe part of Tesla's success is due to their commitment to the idea of the electric vehicle. With Tesla, I know I'm getting the best car Tesla can make because all Tesla makes is EVs. With Ford or GM or Toyota, I don't get that same impression. If I buy a Volt or an e-Mustang, I feel like I'm buying an inferior product. If Ford wants to win in this space, they need to change that perception.

elihu 5y ago

Good to hear about more domestic battery production coming online. I wonder what kind of cells these will be? They're partnering with SK Innovation, which appears to be a major battery manufacturer, but I haven't found anything about what kind of cells they make. I keep hoping we get more lithium iron phosphate production going in the U.S.. The energy density is a bit lower than other lithium ion chemistries, but it's been improving with new technology, and we really need more low-cost long-life cells to put in mass-market vehicles. LFP doesn't require cobalt or nickel, so it can be produced in higher volume than chemistries that do without running into resource bottlenecks. Tesla's approach is fine if you want to make a million cars. To make a hundred million cars requires a different approach, and that's the scale we should be thinking about.

nickik 5y ago
I don't have knowledge about this other then watching the industry closely. I would bet being pouch style cells using NCM811 or a further evolution there-off. > LFP doesn't require cobalt or nickel, so it can be produced in higher volume than chemistries that do without running into resource bottlenecks. I don't think raw resource availability is the major problem. Lithium refinement and cathode and anode production is more likely to cause issues. > Tesla's approach is fine if you want to make a million cars. Not sure what you are referring to here. Tesla uses the second most LFP cells as far as I know. Tesla already uses NCA, NCM and LFP and they are buying from the 3 largest suppliers, Panasonic, CATL and LG. In addition to that they will also produce their own cells with their own high nickel, and nickel-manganese chemistry. They are absolutely thinking how to make many millions of cars, be diversifying suppliers (including themselves), diversifying chemistries while trying to unify the format.

moneytide1 5y ago

This is awesome. Looking forward to deploying my labor on this front in the region I was born & raised after plenty of experience on 4th floor Tesla GF1 cooling tubes (they were forced by aging shareholders to mask me prompting my resignation because I refuse to be muzzled as a healthy heaving/efficient/necessary proletarian that builds this nation's assets with their bare hands). Still looking forward to a chance at acquiring the seemingly indestructible Cybertruck in 2025 (my Chinese Zodiac. Flimsy Model 3 frontal hardware destroyed by hydroplaning into guard rail [0] on original tires at 45k miles without rotation due to my negligence - that angular stainless steel body ain't gonna budge). [0] https://drive.google.com/file/d/189Kyds9I5PL5UJTi_P6nDLv-PMOMYPCP/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/189Kyds9I5PL5UJTi_P6nDLv-PMO...

moneytide1 5y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q3-jMJBO-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q3-jMJBO-Y

mixmastamyk 5y ago

Is anyone making an EV with good privacy?