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This is my US-based perspective: Closing schools last year due to COVID was as bad of a policy as putting COVID patients in nursing homes (looking at you MN an

by eric_b 5y ago

This is my US-based perspective: Closing schools last year due to COVID was as bad of a policy as putting COVID patients in nursing homes (looking at you MN and NY). We knew by September of last year that kids were less impacted by COVID (they spread it less, they get less ill etc). We learned from Europe that it wasn't killing teachers at an increased rate either (a fear-based argument I heard ad nauseum in my very blue state). There was no good science-based argument to close schools last year in the US, especially when restaurants and hair salons were reopened. But political polarization - exacerbated by the media - ensured we did the worst possible thing for our children. I am continually disgusted with every person I encounter who promoted (and in many cases still promote) remote learning. Rich parents could afford professional tutors and create pods and go to other great lengths to ensure their kids got some education. Meanwhile the poor parents were going to work in-person and leaving their kids to fend for themselves (many of whom, at least where I live, turned to committing crimes) The most disgusting part is the people most in favor of closing schools were rich, left-leaning white collar workers. Nevermind that the very people they purportedly want to help with their policies were the most harmed. As long as you say the right words, who cares about outcomes yeah?

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
I'm confused about HN. Everyone here seems to agree that in person learning is best and not remote, but exactly the other way around when it comes to work and I wonder why. Is learning not happening at work as well, especially when you're at the beginning of your career? For me, as a junior, remote work has pretty much been devastating on the learning side of things as well as being invisible to management when it comes to career prospects. Sure, it benefited the seniors as they could more easily dodge some of the annoying responsibility of tutoring the juniors and leave early when their work was done and they had enough time to rub shoulders with management before the pandemic to have guaranteed career prospects. So, to whit, I'm wonder if the teachers also enjoyed remote teaching more to the detriment of the kids?
- burnafter182 5y ago
  From my anecdotal experiences, teachers did not like it, unanimously. And my N is about 50, so take it how you may.
- testplzignore 5y ago
  I think some of it is the different priorities between children and adults. For themselves, adults might care more about convenience than learning, given that 1) they have many more important priorities than learning, and 2) adults don't have the ability to learn that much (compared to children). It's the opposite for children of course. Learning is the number one priority. For me personally, I totally agree that remote work is worse for the learning aspect of the job, and is a total disaster for the social aspect.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >It's the opposite for children of course. Learning is the number one priority. IDK about other kids but when I was in school, my number one priority was having fun outside with my friends or playing video games. Learning was never a priority as a kid, but a chore, a forced exercise on the hamster wheel.
    - saurik 5y ago
      "the" not "their"
- Normal_gaussian 5y ago
  Consider that it is not the same people that comment on every post, but those most invested in sharing their point of view.
- api 5y ago
  > exactly the other way around when it comes to work and I wonder why. Telework isn't ideal, but it offers us a chance to break the big city real estate hyperinflation trap. If all good jobs must be concentrated in SF, NYC, LA, and Seattle, then the choice is "no jobs or unaffordable real estate, pick one." Either way you lose. Everyone loses except property owners in those cities (who bought before the inflation). Long term my hope is that telework and diaspora lead to re-nucleation of talent centers in lots of places all over the country, a reversal of the geographic consolidation trend of the past 20-30 years. Of all industries, this is the one we would expect to be at the forefront of geographic de-consolidation. We could, you know, actually use this Internet thing we built.
credit_guy 5y ago
> The most disgusting part is the people most in favor of closing schools were rich, left-leaning white collar workers Correction: the people most in favor of closing schools were the teachers' unions. And they are a tremendous political force in the US. Right now (Monday 27-Sept-2021) the teacher's union in NYC is arguing that retaining unvaccinated teachers is somehow good for children's safety, and brought the case in front of a Federal Court. https://abc7ny.com/covid-vaccine-mandate-nyc-teachers-ny-healthcare-workers-delta-variant/11046746/ https://abc7ny.com/covid-vaccine-mandate-nyc-teachers-ny-hea...
- Supermancho 5y ago
  > the people most in favor of closing schools were the teachers' unions. I'm not sure they can be "most in favor" when they are groups of organizations. They are easily the groups with the most influence in how schools are structured.
dageshi 5y ago
The main issue with schools is that the kids catch it, don't suffer with it much but pass it to their parents and potentially grand parents. Schools are just a great nexuses for rapidly spreading covid through communities.
- mikem170 5y ago
  It is true that kids are always spreading respiratory ailments. We've always had to live with this risk. It seems to matter how dangerous the situation is, how helpful closing the schools actually is, and how much harm we are doing to kids in order to hopefully protect others. It doesn't help that we don't have exact numbers for some of this. Nor would people assess these risks the same, even if they agree on the numbers. For example, some people don't think that covid is that dangerous, given that only 1 in 500 people have died and we now have a vaccine. Some people think the harm to kids is significant, especially those just starting school and how long they have been locked down. Some people question how effective closing schools has actually been, how many lives are actually being saved, or are we only delaying the inevitable spread of this through the entire population. Some people feel the opposite, they are vulnerable and want to impose on others to lesson risk to themselves. Keeping schools closed now that we have vaccines doesn't make as much sense as before. If the vaccines are 95% effective at preventing death and hospitalization then there is 95% less reason for keeping schools closed.
  - dageshi 5y ago
    I broadly agree, with vaccines I don't really think there's a good reason to keep schools closed. Before I think it made sense to err on the side of caution.
ericmcer 5y ago
If you have ever lived with a kid it is crazy how often they and you will be sick. I lived with a friend who had an 8 year old a few years ago and went from maybe getting sick once a year to almost monthly minor illnesses. 8 year olds are basically disease factories who take no precautions.
- mikem170 5y ago
  I know what you mean, sometimes it seems that little kids always have a runny nose. I've assumed it would be a long-term bad thing if we don't allow for this. Perhaps it is better for kids to encounter all these rhinoviruses and coronaviruses when they are young. Maybe a lot of them are like covid-19, easy to fend off when young but deadly when older. Maybe that is why people sometimes die of the common cold, because they never caught that particular virus when young.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by eric_b 5y ago

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

I'm confused about HN. Everyone here seems to agree that in person learning is best and not remote, but exactly the other way around when it comes to work and I wonder why. Is learning not happening at work as well, especially when you're at the beginning of your career? For me, as a junior, remote work has pretty much been devastating on the learning side of things as well as being invisible to management when it comes to career prospects. Sure, it benefited the seniors as they could more easily dodge some of the annoying responsibility of tutoring the juniors and leave early when their work was done and they had enough time to rub shoulders with management before the pandemic to have guaranteed career prospects. So, to whit, I'm wonder if the teachers also enjoyed remote teaching more to the detriment of the kids?

burnafter182 5y ago
From my anecdotal experiences, teachers did not like it, unanimously. And my N is about 50, so take it how you may.
testplzignore 5y ago
I think some of it is the different priorities between children and adults. For themselves, adults might care more about convenience than learning, given that 1) they have many more important priorities than learning, and 2) adults don't have the ability to learn that much (compared to children). It's the opposite for children of course. Learning is the number one priority. For me personally, I totally agree that remote work is worse for the learning aspect of the job, and is a total disaster for the social aspect.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >It's the opposite for children of course. Learning is the number one priority. IDK about other kids but when I was in school, my number one priority was having fun outside with my friends or playing video games. Learning was never a priority as a kid, but a chore, a forced exercise on the hamster wheel.
  - saurik 5y ago
    "the" not "their"
Normal_gaussian 5y ago
Consider that it is not the same people that comment on every post, but those most invested in sharing their point of view.
api 5y ago
> exactly the other way around when it comes to work and I wonder why. Telework isn't ideal, but it offers us a chance to break the big city real estate hyperinflation trap. If all good jobs must be concentrated in SF, NYC, LA, and Seattle, then the choice is "no jobs or unaffordable real estate, pick one." Either way you lose. Everyone loses except property owners in those cities (who bought before the inflation). Long term my hope is that telework and diaspora lead to re-nucleation of talent centers in lots of places all over the country, a reversal of the geographic consolidation trend of the past 20-30 years. Of all industries, this is the one we would expect to be at the forefront of geographic de-consolidation. We could, you know, actually use this Internet thing we built.

credit_guy 5y ago

> The most disgusting part is the people most in favor of closing schools were rich, left-leaning white collar workers Correction: the people most in favor of closing schools were the teachers' unions. And they are a tremendous political force in the US. Right now (Monday 27-Sept-2021) the teacher's union in NYC is arguing that retaining unvaccinated teachers is somehow good for children's safety, and brought the case in front of a Federal Court. https://abc7ny.com/covid-vaccine-mandate-nyc-teachers-ny-healthcare-workers-delta-variant/11046746/ https://abc7ny.com/covid-vaccine-mandate-nyc-teachers-ny-hea...

Supermancho 5y ago
> the people most in favor of closing schools were the teachers' unions. I'm not sure they can be "most in favor" when they are groups of organizations. They are easily the groups with the most influence in how schools are structured.

dageshi 5y ago

The main issue with schools is that the kids catch it, don't suffer with it much but pass it to their parents and potentially grand parents. Schools are just a great nexuses for rapidly spreading covid through communities.

mikem170 5y ago
It is true that kids are always spreading respiratory ailments. We've always had to live with this risk. It seems to matter how dangerous the situation is, how helpful closing the schools actually is, and how much harm we are doing to kids in order to hopefully protect others. It doesn't help that we don't have exact numbers for some of this. Nor would people assess these risks the same, even if they agree on the numbers. For example, some people don't think that covid is that dangerous, given that only 1 in 500 people have died and we now have a vaccine. Some people think the harm to kids is significant, especially those just starting school and how long they have been locked down. Some people question how effective closing schools has actually been, how many lives are actually being saved, or are we only delaying the inevitable spread of this through the entire population. Some people feel the opposite, they are vulnerable and want to impose on others to lesson risk to themselves. Keeping schools closed now that we have vaccines doesn't make as much sense as before. If the vaccines are 95% effective at preventing death and hospitalization then there is 95% less reason for keeping schools closed.
- dageshi 5y ago
  I broadly agree, with vaccines I don't really think there's a good reason to keep schools closed. Before I think it made sense to err on the side of caution.

ericmcer 5y ago

If you have ever lived with a kid it is crazy how often they and you will be sick. I lived with a friend who had an 8 year old a few years ago and went from maybe getting sick once a year to almost monthly minor illnesses. 8 year olds are basically disease factories who take no precautions.

mikem170 5y ago
I know what you mean, sometimes it seems that little kids always have a runny nose. I've assumed it would be a long-term bad thing if we don't allow for this. Perhaps it is better for kids to encounter all these rhinoviruses and coronaviruses when they are young. Maybe a lot of them are like covid-19, easy to fend off when young but deadly when older. Maybe that is why people sometimes die of the common cold, because they never caught that particular virus when young.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]