22 ms·

The real reason they were so pissed off at Assange seems to be in two parts: 1) The Chelsea Manning State Department cables. The video was all the hype, but jus

The real reason they were so pissed off at Assange seems to be in two parts: 1) The Chelsea Manning State Department cables. The video was all the hype, but just dig through the 'SECRET' cables on Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. 2) Those Vault7 CIA leaks are incredibly embarrassing, it's like so closet criminal organization - and with a program to run cyberwarfare attacks using Russian/Chinese signatures in the code to hide atttribution? That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. All told, those revelations make the State Dept. and the CIA look more like some kind of organized white-collar mafia outfit in the service of Wall Street shareholders than anything else. That kind of raw exposure makes the corrupt insiders in the US government very sad. I'd guess they've got a lot more to hide, and are most worried about further eruptions of embarrassment.

marcinzm 5y ago
> That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. That just seems like standard for spy agencies along with a pretty mild black propaganda angle. Even books about WW2 propaganda cover the topic. I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. " They do. But maybe they do, because of being told by the governments and in schools, that the CIA and co only fight terrorist and evil empires. Those leaks showed the general public more of the real picture, not the fake official one. And sure, they do not like that.
  - adventured 5y ago
    > because of being told by the governments and in schools, that the CIA and co only fight terrorist and evil empires. That's not their image in the US at all and that's not how formal education about the CIA works in schools in the US. The opposite is closer to the truth. You're maybe aware of the common American conspiracy theory that JFK was murdered by the CIA? As retribution for the Bay of Pigs, among other things. Every other Hollywood movie in which they make an appearance has portrayed the CIA as up to no good for decades now, especially when it comes to topics like the war on drugs and terrorism. They're frequently portrayed as duplicitous and incompetent. That's because that's how the culture views them at this point. They do not have a good reputation with the American public. See: American Made (2017), Kill the Messenger (2014), Syriana (2005), The Siege (1998), The Jason Bourne movies, among many others
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      There has been some shift in cultural perception, true (even though "Day of the condor" is even from 1975) - but the official picture and the ones painted by a common movie, is still a very different one, from reality. I mean take James Bond for instance. Glorification of the noble spycraft par excellence. (but I have not watched the latest ones, maybe there was change, too?) And I have no first hand experience with US school education, but here in germany we kind of were educated about our intelligence agencies(and about the ones of the US) in a very friendly way. One that does not match reality.
      - reissbaker 5y ago
        James Bond is a fictional British spy who works for MI6, not the CIA. American cultural perception of the CIA is not great.
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Yeah, I know that. I think we were talking in general about spycraft and the perception of it in the west and not just about the CIA. "I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. "
      - thatcat 5y ago
        Funny you use 007 as an example bc the early films were funded by mi6 as pro spy propaghanda, its a good example of how they would like to be percieved
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    The real source of embarrassment of the leaks (ESPECIALLY the state department ones) is how much these services are basically at the beck and call of the elite, and how all the dirty shit that is done for those power brokers then blows back on us. Most of the time that blowback is the gradual, steady erosion of America's soft power, ideals, and "good guy image" Sometimes it is planes crashing into skyscrapers.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"AtlasBarfed" I absolutely love this nick
  - dataangel 5y ago
    How is making it look like one adversary hacked another adversary when it was really the CIA evidence against them fighting evil empires? It is exactly what I would expect them to do against an evil empire.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  >I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. They certainly do, and that is one of the reasons we are seeing a massive authoritarian crackdown on free speech. The last thing the spy agencies and the rest of the deep state want is for people to understand what they actually do and how dirty they actually are.
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  A false flag cyberattack - an act of war in the modern world, many say - is pretty far beyond what peacetime intelligence agencies have historically gotten up to. I mean, if you left Russia fingerprints on, for example, a CIA-led cyberattack on a nuclear reactor, that could start a major war. It's pretty reckless in my opinion to even make such tools.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Formerly there were consequences if a spy gets caught, even one of your own nation. This just brushes it off...
chiefalchemist 5y ago
I'm reading "The Secret History of The American Empire." Recommended. It's difficult to believe Perkins - after his initial book - was still around to continue to tell the tales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVAifnnlg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVAifnnlg0
sonotathrowaway 5y ago
> 2) Those Vault7 CIA leaks are incredibly embarrassing, it's like so closet criminal organization - and with a program to run cyberwarfare attacks using Russian/Chinese signatures in the code to hide atttribution? That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. I can’t tell if you’re being willfully obtuse or you’re just an extremely histrionic, but it’s clear you didn’t reach that conclusion through principled reasoning.
simorley 5y ago
> Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. Is this a shock to anyone? "Human rights and democracy" is the new imperial "white man's burden". We use it to justify invading, colonizing and stealing from others. When have we ever cared about human rights and democracy? I forget if it was chomsky or someone else who said that we've murdered more people, caused more human suffering and stolen more wealth in the name of "human rights and democracy" than nazi germany did in the name of nazism. Think about that. I wish the non-western world would just collectively laugh at and mock any western leader when they talk about "human rights", "democracy", "western values", etc. How can they stand the hypocrisy? How can we?
- aschlafly 5y ago
  Why do you think even the pro-democracy forces in China see the US's support of "democrats" as a farce? Why do you think the images in HK of protestors with the US flag were seen as nothing short of treason, even among the liberals of China? The hypocrisy is so obvious, and the naked self-interest too glaring. The US's foreign policy has set back the cause of democracy and liberalization in China by decades with its underhanded shenanigans. To recieve their support, even moral support, is the kiss of death in China.
  - holaxes 5y ago
    There are numerous countries in the world that have becomes democracies inspite of the blundering and corruption of the powers that be in the west. Dont use the US and its dysfunction as an excuse please.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      When US dysfunction includes things like regime change and election tampering, it can definitely be used as an excuse. Yes, some countries have independently produced pro-Western democracies, but if they have enough value and start electing anti-Western leaders their democracy will become a target of Western attack. See the ~2002 US backed coup attempt against Hugo Chavez, or the recent Morales elections.
29athrowaway 5y ago
If you own a bakery, the ingredients you use need to be transported to your bakery. Once there, they have to be processed by some form of equipment. Your employees and customers need to physically go to your bakery... Every activity in that bakery, in one way or another, depends on energy. That is also true for any other economic activity. By selling energy you effectively have a share of everyone's business. Also, if you control the fuel supply, you can control entire economies.
- wffurr 5y ago
  Are you trying to say we can’t have energy and care about human rights and decency? The United States has plenty of domestic energy reserves and the capability to build a lot of renewable energy and nuclear energy. There’s zero reason to be catering to Middle East despots, other than corruption and cronyism.
  - 29athrowaway 5y ago
    I never said anything related to that. But governments and organized crime have a lot in common.
    - wffurr 5y ago
      I can’t see clear to what other point you could possibly be trying to make in this context. Perhaps you should clarify what you meant then?
      - 29athrowaway 5y ago
        If you don't know what I meant then why assuming malice as your first reaction?
        wffurr 5y ago
        The only reason I can figure you would make those points in this context is malice. You don't seem inclined to clarify or correct me, either, so...
pvg 5y ago
Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. You can go to the cable archive and type 'human rights' in the search box and see this isn't remotely true. Whatever one might think of US diplomacy and its goals, the cables are mostly of historical interest and cause for mild embarrassment. They don't really show some diabolically clever empire cynically manipulating the world. They mostly show it pursuing its publicly stated goals and interests - one can have a pretty dim view of these goals and interests but you don't need the cables to develop or support that viewpoint.
- ok123456 5y ago
  glow harder
  - samhw 5y ago
    I wish we had moderation policies that would just remove mantras like the above, which contribute precisely zero to the conversation. We all know what they are: "do you like [licking or some variant thereof] that boot [, bootlicker]?", "cry more, libtard", etc. They only serve as a thought-terminating cliché, to assert the speaker's own tribal allegiance and to place their interlocutor on the 'wrong side'. I really don't think HN would be any the worse if they were removed. Anyone who wants to have a slanging match rather than an intelligent exchange of ideas can go to the Other Site.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - ok123456 5y ago
      Yes. Only the correct (i.e., pro natsec) position allowed. Good hacker ethos. If you actually go through and read the cables they show the opposite of humanitarian interest. It's mostly horse trading and appeasing despots. Above all else, the empire must be maintained.
    - fightme 5y ago
      You're making a tone argument but calling it a thought-terminating cliche. Anyone who's capable of forming an opinion on the CIA's policies has already settled on one. On the other hand, the parent downplays the CIA's actions, starting off with "Whatever one might think of US diplomacy", which oozes of propaganda and should be called out. Talking about places like "the Other Site" certainly sounds like tribalism though-- I hope that observation helps you on your journey!
1cvmask 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/ https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
It's always funny that every big revelation has dozens of comments of people coming to the realization that the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc are not friends of democracy. We are fortunate that they need to bathe themselves in the trappings of democracy, unlike, say, Putin's services. It's instructive that they view the third world and the UK as different rules. They get to shit all over the third world and know they can get away with it. Assassinations? Abductions? All A-OK in the brown countries. This isn't me characterizing things, the quotes are from the officials in the article. As for the mafia, the founding basis of all mafia romanticism is that government is just another source of power and abuse, and the mafia are simply another competing source. That would be ridiculous, but the security agencies of the feds certainly do their best to make it plausible.
dataangel 5y ago
> and with a program to run cyberwarfare attacks using Russian/Chinese signatures in the code to hide atttribution? That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. Uh… I assume you can see how leaving a note saying “CIA was here!!!” might run counter to the goals of a spy agency. You might separately not like some of the missions they are tasked with, but this is what they would be doing even if they spent all their time rescuing orphans and their puppies from North Korean salt mines.
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  Perhaps one of the missions they were 'tasked with' was ramping up tensions with Russia (for the benefit of the arms dealers) by launching a lot of bogus false flag attacks on US corporations, with attendent hysterical media coverage? The CIA is more of a propaganda outfit than anything else in my opinion, although their dirty banking and drug dealing games are right up there to. Their 'intelligence role' on important issues could be entirely subsumed by the DIA. Should have been shut down in the 1960s like JFK wanted to do. Useless failure agency on 9/11, too. And, the CIA was behind all the dirty Iraq/Afghanistan torture programs, were they not?
antihero 5y ago
Capitalism Enforcement Agency :)

marcinzm 5y ago

> That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. That just seems like standard for spy agencies along with a pretty mild black propaganda angle. Even books about WW2 propaganda cover the topic. I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been.

hutzlibu 5y ago
"I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. " They do. But maybe they do, because of being told by the governments and in schools, that the CIA and co only fight terrorist and evil empires. Those leaks showed the general public more of the real picture, not the fake official one. And sure, they do not like that.
- adventured 5y ago
  > because of being told by the governments and in schools, that the CIA and co only fight terrorist and evil empires. That's not their image in the US at all and that's not how formal education about the CIA works in schools in the US. The opposite is closer to the truth. You're maybe aware of the common American conspiracy theory that JFK was murdered by the CIA? As retribution for the Bay of Pigs, among other things. Every other Hollywood movie in which they make an appearance has portrayed the CIA as up to no good for decades now, especially when it comes to topics like the war on drugs and terrorism. They're frequently portrayed as duplicitous and incompetent. That's because that's how the culture views them at this point. They do not have a good reputation with the American public. See: American Made (2017), Kill the Messenger (2014), Syriana (2005), The Siege (1998), The Jason Bourne movies, among many others
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    There has been some shift in cultural perception, true (even though "Day of the condor" is even from 1975) - but the official picture and the ones painted by a common movie, is still a very different one, from reality. I mean take James Bond for instance. Glorification of the noble spycraft par excellence. (but I have not watched the latest ones, maybe there was change, too?) And I have no first hand experience with US school education, but here in germany we kind of were educated about our intelligence agencies(and about the ones of the US) in a very friendly way. One that does not match reality.
    - reissbaker 5y ago
      James Bond is a fictional British spy who works for MI6, not the CIA. American cultural perception of the CIA is not great.
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        Yeah, I know that. I think we were talking in general about spycraft and the perception of it in the west and not just about the CIA. "I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. "
    - thatcat 5y ago
      Funny you use 007 as an example bc the early films were funded by mi6 as pro spy propaghanda, its a good example of how they would like to be percieved
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  The real source of embarrassment of the leaks (ESPECIALLY the state department ones) is how much these services are basically at the beck and call of the elite, and how all the dirty shit that is done for those power brokers then blows back on us. Most of the time that blowback is the gradual, steady erosion of America's soft power, ideals, and "good guy image" Sometimes it is planes crashing into skyscrapers.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"AtlasBarfed" I absolutely love this nick
- dataangel 5y ago
  How is making it look like one adversary hacked another adversary when it was really the CIA evidence against them fighting evil empires? It is exactly what I would expect them to do against an evil empire.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
>I think people just underestimate what spy agencies actually do and how dirty it’s always been. They certainly do, and that is one of the reasons we are seeing a massive authoritarian crackdown on free speech. The last thing the spy agencies and the rest of the deep state want is for people to understand what they actually do and how dirty they actually are.
photochemsyn 5y ago
A false flag cyberattack - an act of war in the modern world, many say - is pretty far beyond what peacetime intelligence agencies have historically gotten up to. I mean, if you left Russia fingerprints on, for example, a CIA-led cyberattack on a nuclear reactor, that could start a major war. It's pretty reckless in my opinion to even make such tools.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Formerly there were consequences if a spy gets caught, even one of your own nation. This just brushes it off...

chiefalchemist 5y ago

I'm reading "The Secret History of The American Empire." Recommended. It's difficult to believe Perkins - after his initial book - was still around to continue to tell the tales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVAifnnlg0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVAifnnlg0

sonotathrowaway 5y ago

> 2) Those Vault7 CIA leaks are incredibly embarrassing, it's like so closet criminal organization - and with a program to run cyberwarfare attacks using Russian/Chinese signatures in the code to hide atttribution? That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. I can’t tell if you’re being willfully obtuse or you’re just an extremely histrionic, but it’s clear you didn’t reach that conclusion through principled reasoning.

simorley 5y ago

> Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. Is this a shock to anyone? "Human rights and democracy" is the new imperial "white man's burden". We use it to justify invading, colonizing and stealing from others. When have we ever cared about human rights and democracy? I forget if it was chomsky or someone else who said that we've murdered more people, caused more human suffering and stolen more wealth in the name of "human rights and democracy" than nazi germany did in the name of nazism. Think about that. I wish the non-western world would just collectively laugh at and mock any western leader when they talk about "human rights", "democracy", "western values", etc. How can they stand the hypocrisy? How can we?

aschlafly 5y ago
Why do you think even the pro-democracy forces in China see the US's support of "democrats" as a farce? Why do you think the images in HK of protestors with the US flag were seen as nothing short of treason, even among the liberals of China? The hypocrisy is so obvious, and the naked self-interest too glaring. The US's foreign policy has set back the cause of democracy and liberalization in China by decades with its underhanded shenanigans. To recieve their support, even moral support, is the kiss of death in China.
- holaxes 5y ago
  There are numerous countries in the world that have becomes democracies inspite of the blundering and corruption of the powers that be in the west. Dont use the US and its dysfunction as an excuse please.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    When US dysfunction includes things like regime change and election tampering, it can definitely be used as an excuse. Yes, some countries have independently produced pro-Western democracies, but if they have enough value and start electing anti-Western leaders their democracy will become a target of Western attack. See the ~2002 US backed coup attempt against Hugo Chavez, or the recent Morales elections.

29athrowaway 5y ago

If you own a bakery, the ingredients you use need to be transported to your bakery. Once there, they have to be processed by some form of equipment. Your employees and customers need to physically go to your bakery... Every activity in that bakery, in one way or another, depends on energy. That is also true for any other economic activity. By selling energy you effectively have a share of everyone's business. Also, if you control the fuel supply, you can control entire economies.

wffurr 5y ago
Are you trying to say we can’t have energy and care about human rights and decency? The United States has plenty of domestic energy reserves and the capability to build a lot of renewable energy and nuclear energy. There’s zero reason to be catering to Middle East despots, other than corruption and cronyism.
- 29athrowaway 5y ago
  I never said anything related to that. But governments and organized crime have a lot in common.
  - wffurr 5y ago
    I can’t see clear to what other point you could possibly be trying to make in this context. Perhaps you should clarify what you meant then?
    - 29athrowaway 5y ago
      If you don't know what I meant then why assuming malice as your first reaction?
      - wffurr 5y ago
        The only reason I can figure you would make those points in this context is malice. You don't seem inclined to clarify or correct me, either, so...

pvg 5y ago

Zero interest in 'human rights and democracy', lots of interests in oilfields, pipelines, military sales contracts, etc. You can go to the cable archive and type 'human rights' in the search box and see this isn't remotely true. Whatever one might think of US diplomacy and its goals, the cables are mostly of historical interest and cause for mild embarrassment. They don't really show some diabolically clever empire cynically manipulating the world. They mostly show it pursuing its publicly stated goals and interests - one can have a pretty dim view of these goals and interests but you don't need the cables to develop or support that viewpoint.

ok123456 5y ago
glow harder
- samhw 5y ago
  I wish we had moderation policies that would just remove mantras like the above, which contribute precisely zero to the conversation. We all know what they are: "do you like [licking or some variant thereof] that boot [, bootlicker]?", "cry more, libtard", etc. They only serve as a thought-terminating cliché, to assert the speaker's own tribal allegiance and to place their interlocutor on the 'wrong side'. I really don't think HN would be any the worse if they were removed. Anyone who wants to have a slanging match rather than an intelligent exchange of ideas can go to the Other Site.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ok123456 5y ago
    Yes. Only the correct (i.e., pro natsec) position allowed. Good hacker ethos. If you actually go through and read the cables they show the opposite of humanitarian interest. It's mostly horse trading and appeasing despots. Above all else, the empire must be maintained.
  - fightme 5y ago
    You're making a tone argument but calling it a thought-terminating cliche. Anyone who's capable of forming an opinion on the CIA's policies has already settled on one. On the other hand, the parent downplays the CIA's actions, starting off with "Whatever one might think of US diplomacy", which oozes of propaganda and should be called out. Talking about places like "the Other Site" certainly sounds like tribalism though-- I hope that observation helps you on your journey!

1cvmask 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7 https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/ https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

It's always funny that every big revelation has dozens of comments of people coming to the realization that the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc are not friends of democracy. We are fortunate that they need to bathe themselves in the trappings of democracy, unlike, say, Putin's services. It's instructive that they view the third world and the UK as different rules. They get to shit all over the third world and know they can get away with it. Assassinations? Abductions? All A-OK in the brown countries. This isn't me characterizing things, the quotes are from the officials in the article. As for the mafia, the founding basis of all mafia romanticism is that government is just another source of power and abuse, and the mafia are simply another competing source. That would be ridiculous, but the security agencies of the feds certainly do their best to make it plausible.

dataangel 5y ago

> and with a program to run cyberwarfare attacks using Russian/Chinese signatures in the code to hide atttribution? That's kind of insanely deceptive and criminal I think. Uh… I assume you can see how leaving a note saying “CIA was here!!!” might run counter to the goals of a spy agency. You might separately not like some of the missions they are tasked with, but this is what they would be doing even if they spent all their time rescuing orphans and their puppies from North Korean salt mines.

photochemsyn 5y ago
Perhaps one of the missions they were 'tasked with' was ramping up tensions with Russia (for the benefit of the arms dealers) by launching a lot of bogus false flag attacks on US corporations, with attendent hysterical media coverage? The CIA is more of a propaganda outfit than anything else in my opinion, although their dirty banking and drug dealing games are right up there to. Their 'intelligence role' on important issues could be entirely subsumed by the DIA. Should have been shut down in the 1960s like JFK wanted to do. Useless failure agency on 9/11, too. And, the CIA was behind all the dirty Iraq/Afghanistan torture programs, were they not?

antihero 5y ago

Capitalism Enforcement Agency :)