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Using two keyboards at once for pain relief

• ngngngng 5y ago
  https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/
• hprotagonist 5y ago
  split boards like an ergodox are really quite good, especially in this regard for us broad-shouldered folks.
• FarmingGlory 5y ago
  This is really similar to the Kinesis freestyle keyboard. https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ I really like it.
• micromacrofoot 5y ago
  I've had a similar experience. A few hours into every workday I'd end up with shoulder pain. I ended up building my own split keyboard, and keeping each half spaced out roughly as wide as my shoulders entirely solved the problem. In hindsight the shoulder/arm position for a normal keyboard is just outright terrible... if you're even moderately broad you're so bunched up to type.
• hexo 5y ago
  more important is to use ortholinear keyboard
• yewenjie 5y ago
  Can a regular split ergonomic keyboard like the Dactyl Manuform not be separated arbitrarily?
• ziyangdev 5y ago
  Try the Moonlander keyboard!
  • 12ian34 5y ago
    I just got one, but I'm still using my old SteelSeries Apex M500 for work though because I'm just too slow to do my job effectively using it still. The learning curve is higher than I thought, even after remapping most of the keys to my preferences - just need to give it some time!
    • jborichevskiy 5y ago
      Similar experience here! Love the keyboard but wow it's a learning curve
• alfiedotwtf 5y ago
  The split wireless keyboard from FalbaTech dramatically decreased back pain, headaches, and migraines. My keyboards are kept at a minimum 50cm apart, and I can move them freely depending on comfort (because they are split AND wireless!). Highly recommend them!
• rektide 5y ago
  I made the jump from dual keyboards to a Kinesis Freestyle (2) almost a decade ago. Honestly sometimes I think about going back. I had dual MS Sculpt keyboards for a while, & loved the curve. It's easier to spread the keyboards out far wider than with the pretty short cable Kinesis keyboards usually come with (some keyboards have an XL option). Also Kinesis seems allergic to build a regular-plain-old function-key row, and it seriously hampers usability, even after years of use on this keyboard. The best part is definitely being in an office, and people thinking I was working on multiple things at once.
  • a9h74j 5y ago
    With two Logitech multi-bluetooth keyboards (1-2-3 selector) talking to two or three computers, multiple use-cases would be covered.
• endisneigh 5y ago
  Once you try the 21" separation Kinesis freestyle you won't go back (assuming you know how to touch-type). Being able to keep your arms at shoulder length apart releases a lot of tension you'd otherwise have by brining your arms literally together to type. That being said, the keyboard is hardly perfect.
  • lowbloodsugar 5y ago
    For me, the problem with the Kinesis, is that the modifier keys are all in different locations than the laptop keyboard. I still need to use that when I'm away from my desk. So now I have to Apple Magic keyboards.
• roganartu 5y ago
  > I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch. This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me. Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren’t rounding your back to bring your arms together. Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick) I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don’t think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them however you like.
  • EForEndeavour 5y ago
    You must be thinking of the Kinesis Advantage. Kinesis has also made split keyboards for a while: https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/#keyboards https://kinesis-ergo.com/products/#keyboards
  • lolc 5y ago
    I found R-Go Tools Split to be a nice and light keyboard for my mobile rig. The only annoyance was the throbbing light in the corner. But a patch of tape fixed that. The stock cable wouldn't allow placing the parts as far apart as in the article though. https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go-split/ https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go...
    • appleiigs 5y ago
      Thanks, looks interesting. FYI: the FAQ says this about the light: Yes, this is possible. You can do so by pressing the key combination "Fn"+"A".
• gorbachev 5y ago
  Any one of the keyboards listed on https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards would be better than that.
  • woah 5y ago
    Why?
    • gorbachev 5y ago
      Because they've all actually been designed to be used in split layout, unlike the Apple magic keyboard. They're also all (?) mechanical keyboards, which provide a much better typing experience than any Apple keyboard.
    • eertami 5y ago
      A well built ergonomic split keyboard with high quality switches will certainly provide a better experience than two cheap chiclet keyboards placed side by side. And that's without the auxiliary benefits like freeing up additional desk space, a longer lifespan, and ease of repair.
    • tjoff 5y ago
      Layerkeys that avoid long stretches. It is just so comfortable. You might have heard how nice hjkl is compared to using arrow-keys, imagine ~that for the entire keyboard. Straight columns are superior. Think about it, look at your right hand and how the columns aligns with the keys underneath it. Pretty good huh? Now look at your left and you will probably struggle to explain how anyone could ever justify it, it is absolutely horrendous.
  • qudat 5y ago
    I would recommend the corne. It's cheap to build and once you get used to 40% split ortho you won't look back. As a software engineer it has been my daily driver for years.
  • pro_zac 5y ago
    Great list! I have the Koolertron (aka SmartYao) and love it. (Though I don't recommend the version with backlit keys) Before that I had one called the Comfort Keyboard. I wore a groove into the spacebar over a decade of use. My favorite feature of split keyboards is programming the left spacebar to backspace.
• flylikeabanana 5y ago
  I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about "the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with different noise and tactile characteristics. I just can't fathom all that unused space on my desk (two halves of two keyboards, going totally unused!) when the investment in some natural-feeling typing infrastructure was relatively small given how much pain I've avoided, and will continue to avoid. Edit: clearer word order
  • smoyer 5y ago
    I've got a pair of Ergodox Infinity keyboards with good mechanical keys (not clicky) and SA keycaps because I got tired of carrying one back and forth to the office. My RSI is gone and so I feel that the $800 investment is nothing when looking at the ROI of continued use of my hands. I'm very happy with Cherry MX Brown switches - a good tactile feel with very little noise!
  • cma 5y ago
    Switching to ortholinear can really mess you up when you have to use a laptop or colleague's keyboard.
    • wolrah 5y ago
      I've been using a Moonlander exclusively on my desktop since November 2020 while having no trouble continuing to use a Macbook Air or my old Acer laptop. The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a laptop and back.
      • fouric 5y ago
        I can second this - my main driver is a Dactyl-Manuform (ortholinear), and I have zero problems on any of the other four non-ortho keyboards that I use. I also use Dvorak as my main layout and have no problems when going back to a QWERTY one.
• slg 5y ago
  Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20 inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no numpad.
  • ben7799 5y ago
    If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be able to even reach the keyboard. We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp. I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.
    • slg 5y ago
      That is an issue of depth. I was questioning the author's problem with width. The results on Google say the average shoulder with on a man is 16 inches. The Kinesis Freestyle maxes out at 20 inches of separation. That should be plenty for most people.
• slightwinder 5y ago
  Or just use a split keyboard, there are some dozen available nowadays: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at homerow-position). But the build-quality and sane Thumb-cluster really makes it for me. Though the argument about loudness of mechanical keys is understandable. But this can be solved with a proper audio-setup. Just look at all the streamers with their silent gaming-keyboards.
  • psiconaut 5y ago
    After some custom wooden cases for my ergodox, I'm really excited about the keyboardio model 100 https://keyboard.io/ https://keyboard.io/ basically an ergodox with style, and what seems a bit more ergonomy. I laughed a lot with the video for their last crowdfunding campaign, chicken jokes included :D
    • iwintermute 5y ago
      I've got 001 model and like it so much that getting 100 as the second one.
  • qudat 5y ago
    Without reading the article I thought that's what they meant. For me the biggest QoL improvement has been switching to a split ortho keeb (https://github.com/foostan/crkbd https://github.com/foostan/crkbd). They are super cheap to build (corne is 42 switches which are the most expensive component of a keeb) and once you get the hang of it they are superior to any other typing experience. Learning how to use a 40% had a steep learning curve, but after a few weeks I was very productive and now I don't even think about the layers. Since corne is so easy to build it's a great introduction into building your own keyboards. I just recently purchased the components from keyhive and I think I only spent $110 -- if that? That might sound expensive for a keyboard you have to build yourself but the prices for custom built keyboards can get insane (in the thousands)
• yummypaint 5y ago
  An extra benefit of doing this is that both hands still have access to the full key set. It would be useful to re-assign the extra keys to other functions, but this seems non-trivial to do cross platform in software. Would be a nice project to make a little hardware box to combine two keyboards into one, with a little OLED screen for setting shortcuts.
• dhagz 5y ago
  ...just get a split keyboard (the Kinesis isn't a true split - still one body). It's cheaper. You don't have extraneous keys. You don't have to worry about using software to get your computer to play nice with two keyboards. I like the offerings from https://gboards.ca https://gboards.ca, personally (bonus, they're ortholinear if you believe that is good for reducing pain). I got the Gergoplex from that site, and over the course of a week of typing I got used to it and was able to be productive with it. Just get a split.
  • colordrops 5y ago
    As people mentioned elsewhere in this thread, kinesis does have split keyboards (the freestyle / edge line). And you can choose your switch type in case you want a quiet keyboard.
• georgewsinger 5y ago
  Split keyboards can also do this :] If you've always wanted to get one of those fancy custom split keyboards (corne, iris, etc), I highly recommend https://keebmaker.com/ https://keebmaker.com/. For a small price premium, you basically pick out the keyboard you want, and they'll build it for you (so you don't have to mess with soldering, etc).
  • andai 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing. Super cool and way cheaper than I expected.
  • warp 5y ago
    I had keebmaker build me an iris some time ago, I second this recommendation, excellent service. (I regret not picking a keyboard with hotswap sockets, I'd like to experiment with different switches but this iris will have brown chocs soldered onto it forever :)
• ashton314 5y ago
  There is a lot of hype on this thread about the Moonlander keyboard. The hype is real. The author has a neat hack, but seriously, just get yourself a split keyboard that supports the QMK firmware, customize the crap out of it, and your hands will thank you forever.
  • jagger27 5y ago
    I wish I could buy the Moonlander without switches and keycaps. I already have both.
    • ashton314 5y ago
      That would be nice. They explain why they don’t do that here: https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/faq https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/faq That being said, their support and product are absolutely excellent—might be worth it anyway
      • jagger27 5y ago
        That is somewhat of a good point about testing, but I’m not 100% convinced. The PCB itself should have already been tested at the factory, which should be sufficient for someone like me who’s ordering it without switches. The purpose of testing the switches how they’re doing it is to ensure that the pins weren’t bent upon insertion and the switches themselves. Neither of those things apply in my case. Other companies sell plenty of DIY hot swap board kits without switches pre installed, so they must have a reliable and cheap way of testing the hot swap sockets themselves (something the PCB factory may or may not do, not sure).
  • Gigachad 5y ago
    I wish someone would make a wireless split keyboard. I have the ergodox but I ended up replacing it with the logitech mx keys because I was sick of having cables all over my desk and having to unplug the thing every time I switch between my desktop and laptop.
    • 5y ago
• bckr 5y ago
  I think this is actually going to be a game changer for me. I got a keychron k6 and it's almost perfect (I only don't like having to press a function key to type a backtick). Plus it was CHEAP for a mechanical keyboard. I can easily purchase a second one. And it's clear from just spreading my shoulders that this will have a big impact on my shoulder pain. Thanks for sharing!
• darthvoldemort 5y ago
  There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine. It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy, etc but nothing helped, not even medication. It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit. I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are fine with my because it's in the middle. Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away. It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for me this was the precise reason.
  • superjan 5y ago
    The mouse was also the issue for me but I switched to a trackball. All the work is done by my thumb, no need to move your arm around.
    • capitainenemo 5y ago
      I loved the kensington expert mouse for that (the old one that was exactly same as a poolball) since it had wonderful heft and could do both palm spins and precision one hand. But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case) so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.
  • NortySpock 5y ago
    Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain free since I can avoid moving my wrist. Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since, well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul. [1] Logitech M570
• JCVI-syn10 5y ago
  Cheap chiclet keyboard giving you RSI? I've got the solution: two cheap chiclet keyboards!
• pkamb 5y ago
  These split and ortholinear keyboards all seem to be compensating for the fact that we are taught to type keys on the left hand bottom row with the wrong finger. The "Q-A-Z" slope goes completely against the natural angle of your left finger curl. Same for every finger on your left hand. The right hand gets things right with "U-J-M" etc. Nice finger curl with your hand in a natural position. On normal keyboards we should be teaching and typing the "W-S-Z" (or even "E-S-Z") column with your left ring finger, not the completely perpendicular "W-S-X".
  • ruffrey 5y ago
    Op here, I totally agree we need to re-think keyboard ergonomics! Millions of people have pain from the design of these things. I am so happy the article sparked a little conversation.
• zylent 5y ago
  If you can afford it, a split like the ergodox or moonlander (my personal choice) is the correct answer here. I type 8+ hours a day and have zero pain. I also switched to dvorak a few years back, and consider that to help as well.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• hyperpape 5y ago
  The author dismisses clicky keyboards as "too loud for screen shares", but I'm not sure that's a problem with a good mic. You get truly impressive noise reduction. https://www.benkuhn.net/vc/ https://www.benkuhn.net/vc/. My own experience is that with even a decent mic, I never used mute, and could do things like calls while my son watched TV in the next room (not separated by a door, but by a wide open entryway). My coworkers testimony made me clear that while it was distracting for me, they weren't hearing the noise.
• lancefisher 5y ago
  When I broke my clavicle, I rigged up a second keyboard that I could use with my arm in a sling: https://live-fts.flickr.com/photos/lancefisher/4293591069/in/photosof-lancefisher/ https://live-fts.flickr.com/photos/lancefisher/4293591069/in... It worked really well! The biggest downside was that I had to use modifier keys on the same keyboard as the key I was modifying. e.g. right shift and l to get a capital L.
  • stronglikedan 5y ago
    That keyboard you have in your left hand is one of my favorite keyboards ever, as far as non-standard layouts go, anyway. I just love how it fits over any laptop keyboard for ergonomics on the go.
• ktm5j 5y ago
  > If you’re adult-sized, it’s nearly impossible the keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position while typing on a keyboard. I have to disagree with this.. I'm 6'1 and had bad posture for most of my life. I had the same issues with pain that you describe. But recently I've put a lot of work into it having better posture and I don't have any problems anymore. You just need the right desk/chair height and sit up straight without resting your back on the backrest. Something like this is really helpful: https://www.amazon.com/Posture-Corrector-Men-Women-Truweo/dp/B07DKHTKP3 https://www.amazon.com/Posture-Corrector-Men-Women-Truweo/dp... If you've never put effort into having good posture then you probably don't have the muscles that you need. Doing yoga, or any kind of core exercise, is also really helpful. I can't tell you enough how much better I feel having built up some real core strength. I used to hurt my back all the time but that never happens anymore! Just my $.02 :)
  • CraigJPerry 5y ago
    I don’t know, there really is something to it - i bought a Zsa Moonlander keyboard last year which is two split halves. I instantly felt a comfort i’ve never had before or since around my shoulder blades. It was really satisfying. That said, i sold the keyboard after only a few months and i’m back to a normal style keyboard so it wasn’t that big a deal clearly.
    • ktm5j 5y ago
      Oh I'm not trying to say which keyboard setup is better than the other.. just that I think a normal keyboard works fine if you've got some core strength and good posture. But you know, that's totally just like, my opinion man.
      • CraigJPerry 5y ago
        Apologies if that came off wrongly - wasn't intended that way
• dotancohen 5y ago
  The absolute best keyboard that I've ever used was the Matias Ergo Pro, a true split keyboard with an audio jack plug connecting the two halfs, so they can be very far apart. A true mechanical (Alps) keyboard, true split, with tenting and tilting and integrated palm rests. And a real Function key row! I had two of them. Why two? Because the first one didn't last a year, so they sent a replacement. That one didn't last long either. For $250 I was expecting a durable keyboard, but this isn't. Many people on Geekhack and other keyboard forums also report build quality issues with them. That said, I still highly recommend this keyboard. It is comfortable enough to spend $250 every year or two on. I see it as less than half a dollar a day for a professional tool. How much do people spend on Windows and Office licenses? Not only is the layout phenomenal, with the arrow keys and Home/End/PgU/PgDown perfectly placed, but it also had very good mechanical switches.
  • iamevn 5y ago
    I love mine too, got it with the quiet click switches and they feel really good. Mine occasionally gets stuck and repeats certain keys so I'm going to need to order a bag of replacement switches and replace them. I've heard that there was a bad batch of switches or something so I've been unsure if I should recommend it to others. Hearing that you got a whole replacement keyboard I guess I should reach out to Matias and see if they'll send me some free switches so I can fix it myself. If replacing switches doesn't fix it, I would love an excuse to tear it down and replace the firmware something custom.
    • dotancohen 5y ago
      I'd love to hear your experience with that. I'm about to order a third keyboard from them, price be damned. I had the repeating key issue with both my low-force keyboard (the first one) and the regular keyboard.
• avgDev 5y ago
  Don't forget about exercise and/or physical therapy. My tendons have been trashed by a medication(cipro) and I had some awful lows when my body was hurting, including my fingers. The only thing I have found helpful was exercise and physical therapy. I have been doing PT for over a year now with a professional. I also won't code 8-10 hours a day. I want to program for a long time, so I prefer jobs with a room to think instead of cranking out code non-stop. I did also use some supplements that were found to help with the damage in studies, but not sure if any were helpful.
• jarpineh 5y ago
  Hey. I do this! I should have done this years ago instead of trying to deal with English language keyboards or those few ergo boards that do support Nordic/Swedish/Finnish layout. It is not about learning the different layouts. There’s just not enough keys here, unless I start switching layouts based on writing language. So much money gone, especially to get the more esoteric pieces shipped here. I am contemplating adding shortcuts to unused halfs of the keyboards.
• robomartin 5y ago
  Based on my own experience, I don't think any of this is necessary. Context: Back about twenty years ago; startup; spending 18 hours a day, 7 days a week for about 2 years almost full time in front of the computer coding, electronics design, 3D CAD, etc. I developed pain and soreness on both wrists. Inflammation too. They were warm to the touch. I resorted to things like coding with ice packs on my wrists. It sucked. I also had context from work in another industry where I knew people who had surgery on their wrists due to the pain and inflammation. Not fun at all. And, no, it did not solve the problem. Other than repetitive motion, the root cause is bad ergonomics. Splitting the keyboard or using two keyboards does not solve the problem. You need four things: 1- A low actuation effort keyboard 2- A trackball --mice are horrible, they require far more motion and effort than the task demands 3- A good adjustable chair (Aeron is what I use) with adjustable arm rests 4- An ergonomic desk, not an office desk #4 is where I went to work and designed my own [0] [1]. The other factors are somewhat subjective and require you to experiment until you find what you like. The effect was almost instantaneous. You setup your chair to match the arm rest height to that of the wrist support bar on the desk. And you relax. You have to learn to relax. You hand naturally droops into the cavity where the keyboard and trackball are. The objective is minimal to no attitude (orientation) support tension on the upper tendons. When you eliminate this tension, the problem is gone. The trackball makes it so you don't have to move all over the place to use the GUI. This is particularly true of a multimonitor or large monitor setup. Sorry to say this --because I know there are people who like them-- mice are horrible. The same is true of touch pads. Great for low cost integration into thin laptops, horrible for ergonomics. I use a trackball on my laptops as well. If this worked for me (18 hours/day, 7 days a week, 2 years) it has to work for anyone doing less than that. Normal office desks are horrible. They are a relic of the days when people wrote on paper by hand. A modern ergonomic desk designed for extended work on computers cannot have a single flat surface at 29 inches (74 cm) of height. That's ridiculous. The ergonomics of using a keyboard and mouse/trackball on such a surface are 100% wrong. Measure the height from your elbow to the floor while relaxed on your chair. Femur bone should be horizontal, feet comfortably touching the ground, spine is comfortably vertical (not slouching), shoulders relaxed, forearm bent at 90 degrees (horizontal). Is that 29 inches? Nope. It's probably in the 25 to 26 inch range (63.5 to 66 cm). Guess the height of the keyboard shelf on my custom desk? The wrist support bar is about 1.5 inches (4 cm) high, sanded to about 600 grit and stained with Tung oil. It's reasonably friction free, not sticky or perspiration-inducing. The edges are rounded to, if I remember correctly, a 1/2 inch (1.3 cm) radius). [0] https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg https://i.imgur.com/S8gOPh7.jpg [1] https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PoKDNOk.jpg
• CarVac 5y ago
  They're out of style, but keyboard trays that extend out from the desk let you get the keyboard lower and closer to you for better shoulder and arm positioning. You don't need a split unless you're zombie-arm reaching for a keyboard far away on top of your desk. Personally, my arms are very long so I actually type with my keyboards directly on my lap. My upper arms hang straight down, my shoulders completely neutral.
• Izikiel43 5y ago
  I got severe wrist pain in my right wrist after a year of using a regular keyboard and mouse. After several changes, I got a microsoft ergonomic keyboard [1] and a logitech mx ergo advanced trackball, and I've been pain free since then. The trackball helped a lot since I don't need to move my wrist, just my thumb. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboard/93841ngdwr1h https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboa... [2] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse.html https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...
• epakai 5y ago
  An alternative to the rubber nubs is a drop of clear nail polish. I started using it on dvorak rearranged keyboards. Not sure what is best, but I got some UV curing type. A bit of alcohol removes the residue after curing, and you get a small smooth bump.
• ethanmad 5y ago
  If you're interested in split keyboards, check out the Keyboard.io Model 100[1], which will be shipping in January. They're a reputable company, having already successfully sold the Model 01 and Atreus with great success. Jesse and Kaia are great folk and send regular updates on the production. Why Model 100 over other split boards like the Moonlander or Ergodox? 1. Sculpted keycaps take the ortholinear split board to another level of comfort (and help recognize which keys your fingers are on). 2. It's $55 cheaper than Moonlander. 3. The palm key allows you to layers without having to move your hand. 4. Aesthetics? I've been using a Model 01 for the past few years and other typing experiences can't compare. I'm waiting for a Model 100 now so I can switch to its better (MX-style) switches. [1]: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-keyboardio-model-100--4/#/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-keyboardio-model-100-...
  • dharmab 5y ago
    In regards to point 1, ortholinear sculpted keys are available for the Ergodox. I use one due to a wrist injury.
    • ethanmad 5y ago
      TIL. ThatIf you're referring to the DCS sculpted keycaps which come with the EZ[2], they're still not quite the same. Keyboard.io Models 01 and 100 use different shapes for (nearly?) every key. At the edges of the keyboard, it's particularly noticeable: the outer edges are ramped inwards. The downside of individually sculpted caps is, of course, compatibility with other keycap sets.
  • krzyk 5y ago
    Why such keyboards lack F keys? Having to press another key to allow F keys doesn't sound like ergonomic at all, less combos -> less strain for hands.
    • ethanmad 5y ago
      Well, it's all remappable. In the default layout, Fun+number maps to F keys. Fun is the palm key by default, so it's very easy to press.
• jakupovic 5y ago
  I do this already with ThinkPad keyboards which have a red knob for a mouse and love it. Shoulder pain, RSI all gone.
• aimor 5y ago
  Trying this out right now with a keyboard and laptop and I'm immediately a fan! I'm pleasantly surprised that Shift works across keyboards. I really dislike keyboard key layouts, that is the physical staggered location of the keys always feels cramped and inconvenient when our fingers naturally want to splay out. I also am pretty comfortable reaching across the keyboard, or typing one handed, even though I like to stick to the home row. Using two keyboards I notice how much more natural it is to reach across and use the 'wrong' hand for certain keys. But mostly my experience is just what the author said: The relief was almost instant. This feels like the way I'm supposed to have been typing all along.
  • _kst_ 5y ago
    I'm typing this now with my left hand on my main keyboard and my right hand on my laptop keyboard, which is about two feet away and at an angle. It's surprising how natural it feels to type this way. I don't have any particular RSI issues, so I probably won't make a habit of it, but it's interesting how my brain doesn't seem to care how far apart my hands are. I'm not even consciously aware of which hand I'm using at any moment.
• agilob 5y ago
  >To be able to find Home Row, I added a couple large rubber dot things. Have you considered this keyboard is just bad for you? Old keyboards were a lot more ergonomic, clickly, and keys had indicators to let your fingers scan for keys. Spacebar wasn't completely flat, was either rounded upwards (not dipped like all other keys). F and J have these indicators to let you find your way on keyboard: https://cdn.mwave.com.au/images/400/AB55032_4.jpg https://cdn.mwave.com.au/images/400/AB55032_4.jpg >The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey Was it the one with red switches? I've never heard complaints, but again... are you using that crappy laptop microphone all the time? No one ever complained on my keyboard and I don't mute myself during meetings. Are you reinventing '90s keyboard?
• samuell 5y ago
  I used to do this before with two wireless Logitech K400rs, to ease my wrist pain. I really like their compactness, built in touchpad and volume controls etc), but was not happy with the fact that i could not keep them too close to each other, and that fn-key combinations would not work across the two keyboards (on k400 the fn keys are key (pun intended) to getting to the function keys)
  • ruffrey 5y ago
    If you're on mac, Karabiner will link the function and hot key combos http://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org http://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org to
• stronglikedan 5y ago
  Coincidentally, I just started using two keyboards for related but different reasons - left-hand mousing. I started developing tendonitis in my right thumb from mousing. Didn't matter whether mouse, pad, or ball - everything wore on it. So, I learned to mouse with my left hand, but this presented another problem - keyboard shortcuts. I found it was difficult to keep reaching over to my left side with my right hand, where most of the common keyboard shortcuts reside. I used to use my left hand for those, but moving between mouse and keyboard is also difficult. My solution was to set up a half-keyboard (aka gaming keyboard) to the right to my main keyboard. Now all my common shortcuts are easily accessible to my right hand, and it only took a few days to get used to (much less time than left hand mousing). It's working well so far.
  • corysama 5y ago
    Similar story. I had a year where I was so productive that I typed my way into cubital tunnel syndrome. Felt like getting stabbed by needles at random points in the day. Doc said I needed surgery. Instead I changed my routine dramatically for a few months. 1. "Essential Hand Stretches For Guitarists or Any Instrumentalist" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSrfB7JIzxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSrfB7JIzxY before, during and after typing. 2. When typing, hold my hands out limp like a zombie and move my whole arms and torso to hit the keys with limp middle fingers. 3. 2 keyboards. 2 mice. One set in the normal placement. Another keyboard in my lap. Another mouse on a pedestal to the left of my chair. Switch which device I'm using every few minutes. In a few months the pain was gone and hasn't come back. I still get a bit tingly a decade later if I type a lot. But, besides that one year, I've always spent way more time reading code and thinking about code than actually typing code.
    • stronglikedan 5y ago
      Thanks for the exercises - I'll give them a shot. I'm also now doing the zombie typing thing, but not quite used to it yet. I wish I would have learned my lesson from my high school typing teacher, who would whack our arms with a ruler if we were resting our wrists on anything. And, yeah, switching between multiple devices too: regular mouse, vertical mouse, track pad and trackball. That started with something I read along the lines of "the best ergonomic position is the next position".
• X-Istence 5y ago
  I bought an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and I absolutely love it. It has solved my primary complaint of feeling tired at the end of the day, and have been loving the custom key commands that can be sent depending on the layer of the keyboard. Certain shortcuts for things like managing windows are now behind Fn + a key vs Ctrl + Option + Cmd + key. While traveling I miss my keyboard, but because its not ortholinear at least it retains similar key position so switching to a different keyboard hasn't caused too many issues.
• guilhas 5y ago
  Wow rubber dot, nice tip
• cecilpl2 5y ago
  Honestly, switching to a more natural layout like Dvorak is probably one of the best things you can do for wrist pain. I don't think there have been any studies on it yet, but anecdotally it's great. Many people report likewise. It's not easy to switch but imo it's well worth the time to optimize one of the primary interfaces with which you will interact with the world for decades to come. It's so bizarre to me that we are all stuck on a horribly unoptimized interface and we continue to teach our children how to use it, when much-better performing alternatives are easily available.
  • ebiester 5y ago
    Dvorak didn't change anything for me and I went back. The problem for me is angle of wrists, not key travel. (The other problem is one-handed chording and stretching. Ctrl-X,V for example.)
• benfrancom 5y ago
  I had rsi as well, so bad I couldn't shake anyone's hand. I thought my wrist was broken. What fixed it for me was to drop the keyboard down onto my lap using a laptop desk, or "lapdesk." I believe my pain was from resting my wrists or forearms on the desk or chair armrests...So I also removed the chair armrests. Also, removing the distance from keyboard to mouse by utilizing a tablet keyboard w/o a numeric keypad. Using the i3 window manager in Linux was great, and I need to do better at using vimium in the browser to reduce mouse usage. It took me forever to find the lapdesk thing out, and there is research behind the ergonomics: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html In my opionion, it's worth a good read-through.
• nvmletsdoit 5y ago
  I noticed when I started to exercise more seriously few years ago, all the pain from working 8h+ in front of a PC magically disappeared. But I think the key isn't just do the exercises for a good posture. Just commit to something a little more ( gym, tai chi, whatever you want ) and your body automagically will handle better the "bad habits". TLDR: I noticed a lot of difference between just doing postural work and a fully committed "sport".
• tokamak-teapot 5y ago
  I did exactly this - even down to using Apple Magic keyboards, because I happened to have two of them. The only difference was that I had the keyboards angled ‘out’ rather than in, propped up at their front and middles, so that my wrists were higher than my fingers and thumbs higher than my other fingers, if that makes sense. Eventually I moved on from this to a single keyboard specifically designed to support this sort of setup, but two small keyboards was a great start!
• waspight 5y ago
  Isn't one supposed to have the mouse in between the split keyboard for ergonomic reasons? Setting keyboard parts far from each other seems to be the direct opposite. Which setting should it be?
• bserge 5y ago
  And use 2+ computers at once for increase performance at a fraction of the price. That's what I'm doing lol.
• glouwbug 5y ago
  It's not about the keyboard. It's about the lack of a strength building regime. Humans are not built to sit behind a desk. A strength training regime like Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5 is what the average office worker needs to survive their career RSI free into old age
  • r5Khe 5y ago
    I love both Starting Strength and Stronglifts and I think exercise is absolutely critical for everyone, especially knowledge workers. I lift daily, but I still get RSI. Maybe I'm an anomaly, but I think you might be painting too broad a brush with this prescription.
    • glouwbug 5y ago
      A muscle imbalance in the shoulders from years of mouse use will almost certainly cause some form of neck pain, as will anterior pelvic tilt from an undeveloped posterior from years of sitting in a chair. Typing related injuries in the elbow occur because the tendons - and the muscles surrounding the tendons - are too weak to support something as simple as typing. So long as you're smart and your hands aren't stretching across the keyboard you're not going to develop something sinister-to-treat like the emacs pinky. Take care of yourself. There's certainly more of us on here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17132938 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17132938
  • chillacy 5y ago
    If you’ve done those programs then you know how important form is to doing physical activities safely. The way I see it, the standard keyboard is akin to encouraging lifting with bad form, 30-80 hours a week.
    • glouwbug 5y ago
      Heavy barbell movements demand proper nutrition, form checks, and a spotter in some circumstances. It's a low risk activity with a bit of careful planning in terms of linear progression and diet. Film yourself in the gym if you need to
• srcreigh 5y ago
  The Advantage 2 can be modified to be a split keyboard. Take a look inside, it's pretty simple. [0] Just need some longer cables and add extra supports to the case right? It appears at least one person has accomplished this. [1] [0]: http://www.abarry.org/likelytobeforgotten/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2013-02-08-13.04.24.jpg http://www.abarry.org/likelytobeforgotten/wp-content/uploads... [1]: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16112.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=16112.0
  • ajford 5y ago
    Kinesis has also been teasing a new board that looks to be a split Advantage style board. https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1397335511694381058 https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1397335511694381058
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• Waterluvian 5y ago
  I’ve badly badly wanted an OS that supports multiple mice with multiple cursors on the screen.
• rhizome31 5y ago
  If you're not exercising regularly and you have pain triggered by programming you should give exercise a chance. It has worked wonderfully for me. In my case just running 5k every week has done the trick. Pain went away magically and never came back. I have no idea how running can prevent what seems to be unrelated pain but I swear it worked for me. I now use the most basic keyboard and mouse and I'm fine. I don't know if it will work for you but it's worth trying.
  • ajkjk 5y ago
    I think having various stabilizer muscles be stronger induces you to hold your body in a healthier way. (I think this both because I've heard people say this, and I've felt it myself, although from rock climbing rather than running). It seems like the various basic work of holding your body up and out of tension is essentially free for those muscles if they are strengthened and flexible _at all_, but a sedentary lifestyle can atrophy them to beyond that.
  • celesian 5y ago
    I guess you do kinda shake and move around the muscle of your hands when you're running.
  • megameter 5y ago
    I started doing animal crawls every day recently after being tipped off by some YT videos to their benefits, and they seem to work even better than running for the goal of full-body maintenance. Every time I finish I feel like my spine has been gently massaged.
• brailsafe 5y ago
  Since going to a sculpt, regular keyboards are just upsetting. I love almost everything about it, especially how I can position my shoulders. It feels familiar for a mac user, ironically, because of the chicklet keys, and only took a day to get used to. I'd love to try others that are identical in shape, but maybe different in tact or texture. The Surface Keyboard is too big and too expensive for my taste. $170 vs $80. I like this person's idea, though of course it's very demanding in terms of space and $$. Whatever gets rid of the pain and helps your posture.
• lowbloodsugar 5y ago
  I also use two Apple Magic Keyboards, though angled in rather than out. I have tried various keyboards, including ones with cherry, and I own a split Kinesis for Mac. They all have the same problem: when I am away from my desk (or country) I need to use the laptop keyboard. So I have two magic keyboards, or I have one. Has to be the magic keyboard, not the big one with the numpad, because that one has the modifiers and cursor keys in different locations (no Fn for example). It's not for everyone, but I wish everyone else would leave off the "Oh thats so bad for you", "Oh your life will be changed by a Cherry whatever". It's not and it wasn't. Feel free to share positive outcomes, but don't insist your solution will work for everyone.
  • ruffrey 5y ago
    Op here, thanks for that! I sometimes type on the MacBook keyboard and it helps to have an identical layout and feel. Just seeing all the stories here about ergonomic hacks is awesome!
• TacticalCoder 5y ago
  I've thinking about trying this for a very long time, but never did so. My keyboard "mechanical switch" of choice is Trope. To me there isn't a single other switch that comes even close (and I've got lots of keyboards). And among the Topre keyboards, my favorite is the HHKB Pro JP (japanese layout)... But it's not split (I don't care if it's two parts or one part: to me "split" means both halves are at an angle). So I've been thinking about using not one but two HHKB Pro JP, as in TFA. I should really just try it.
• yetanothermonk 5y ago
  I don't game but I've found Kinesis split keyboard (https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/) + vertical mouse cured my wrist/forearm pain. That plus a desk at 27" instead of a "normal" 32" are one time ergonomic expenses that are absolute no-brainers for programmers. It took a lot of trial and error to find the setup that worked for me. I think the above is the right 80/20 solution. Worth a shot and hope it ends up helping someone. FWIW, the Kinesis keyboard has a nice tilt that corresponds with the vertical mouse tilt.
  • jansan 5y ago
    Using a vertical mouse completely cured my wrist pain. They are clunky and an eyesore, but if you feel the slightes pain in your wrist, I urge you to get a vertical mouse and at least use it part of the time. I got a cheap rechargeable one for 30 euros and it feels very natural. Swtiching between regular mouse and vertical ones is no problem at all.
• strange_things 5y ago
  Has pain from using keyboard. Uses apple non-mechanical keyboard... Try a mechanical keyboard. Gateron or Cherry brown is my choice, silent and very comfortable.
  • hermitdev 5y ago
    The author does mention having tried and disliked a Cherry MX.
• thrower123 5y ago
  The only time I have any beginnings of repetitive stress type issues is if I have to use laptop keyboards or somebody else's mouse. I have full-sized or oversized IBM-style mechanical keyboards and the largest mouse that I could find on the market. It's not like I have the most enormous hands, but I can't deal with being cramped up on a little 14 inch laptop keyboard.
• nbzso 5y ago
  Kinesis Advantage 2. Hard learning curve, macros, endless customization and no pain. The idea of using Apple keyboards without wrist support is temporary hack. I have changed countless mechanical and ergonomic keyboards with no success. The concept of using your thumbs for most repetitive combinations is just astonishingly effective. As a side effect I remapped left super to control and right supper to meta on all my laptops, caps lock is escape. But nothing can compare to comfort and speed that I can reach on Kinesis Advantage. The key to success with this keyboard is to remap it by your standards and wishes, I have seen many people complain about using your thumbs or arrow keys, square brackets. The power of this keyboard besides ergonomic design is in a remapping functionality and complementary software. Rarely nowadays I can say that some product or service is changing my life drastically for good. But Advantage is one of those life changing products.
• Symbiote 5y ago
  I created a filter able gallery of split, mechanical keyboards to help people browse through the kind of things that are available. https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ Xah Lee has a page with some non-mechanical options listed. http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html
  • shocks 5y ago
    These are fantastic. Thank you!
• ioman 5y ago
  I have been using Kinesis Advantage keyboards for close to two decades now. The keyboard wells and the placement of the space, enter, delete, backspace, and modifier keys I find amazing. I haven't been able to find anything else nearly as good. So I keep using them even though they only have USB interfaces. I've been using them so long I have a few lying around. I've gotten two set up as described by ruffrey. Oh. My. God. I've been typing for less than an hour on this new setup and already my shoulders feel way better.
• stavros 5y ago
  I quite like the split style, so I made a split keyboard for me: https://imgz.org/i6HG7FUf/ https://imgz.org/i6HG7FUf/ I love it, it works extremely well and is exactly suited to my hands. I should finish writing up the process one of these days. I certainly recommend getting a split keyboard (maybe BT?) if you want to try this approach, though two cheap keyboards might be cheaper than one good split one.
• dmead 5y ago
  this seems a bit extreme. why not just buy a split keyboard? https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/product/freestyle-edge/ I've had this for about a year and I'm quite happy with it. i tend to bottom out a lot though, so i installed o-rings to make it a bit easier on my fingers. def worth the trouble though.
• michaelcampbell 5y ago
  > The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. I use Cherry Blues on all my kb's at home, and at least Google Meet does a stellar job at filtering out that noise; I've even asked people while I'm typing if they can hear me typing; none have answered in the positive so far.
  • LAC-Tech 5y ago
    After 18 months of remote work, the noise from someones keyboard would not even register. Click away I say.
• eichin 5y ago
  Hah, I'm used to home-row-finding bumps being subtle (which goes back to Actual Typewriters) but there's no reason they can't be half the size of the keycap :-)
• m0zg 5y ago
  Back when I had wrist pain the only thing that worked for me was mousing with a different hand, and using a split Goldtouch keyboard (not a fan of the key feel, but ergonomically it worked well for me). Then I got into weightlifting and I don't have wrist pain anymore and can use whatever keyboard or mouse I want. Not saying this works for everyone, obviously, but give it a try as well. It also works wonders for lower back pain, and just in general makes you feel better.
• sasaf5 5y ago
  I have been doing exactly this for a year now. It allows my shoulders to be open, stopping me from slouching over the keyboard. It has solved my back pain.
• elevenoh 5y ago
  We desperately need more a more ergonomic interface w computation. Seen many careers ruined. Hope to see more along these lines.
• unnouinceput 5y ago
  Wasn't on HN, not so long time ago, maybe couple of months, how to create a mechanical keyboard from a Raspberry Pi? I think the author of this article could've benefit from that one. Could've created his custom keyboard, without any additional software to link two separate keyboards in one, could've made it as wide or as split he wanted and with as many programmable keys (if he'd want) as needed.
• LAC-Tech 5y ago
  Do people really sit there all day with their fingers on the home rows? I find most of my workday I am thinking, reading, using the mouse etc. Actually typing comes in relatively short bursts. Maybe you're all much harder workers than me :)
• burlesona 5y ago
  I will second this and say split keyboard has largely solved the neck and shoulder pain I’ve had for years. I still get it sometimes but it’s very rare, whereas it was very frequent before I converted to split keyboard. For ease of adjustment I found the Matías Ergo Pro keyboard to be very good. Before that I tried the Kinesis Freestyle and didn’t like it as much. Recently I’ve been using a Dygma Raise with Cherry MX Brown switches, and I’m enjoying it as it’s nearly as familiar as the Matías but smaller. I greatly miss the arrow keys though. I have to say this two keyboard hack is pretty clever. What I wish I could buy is almost exactly this: a Mac laptop keyboard split in half. I wouldn’t argue that it has better typing feel etc compared to mechanicals, but I do still work on my laptop some and while I’ve gotten to where I can switch back and forth without being too badly impacted, I still make a lot more mistakes compared to when I exclusively typed on my laptop or other Apple keyboard.
• cbHXBY1D 5y ago
  Everyone here is talking about RSI but the author is probably talking about a shoulder impingement due to rounded shoulders. To fix this issue you need to strengthen the back, especially the infraspinatus. There's a bunch of youtube videos that can teach you how to do this. I recommend AthleanX. I had this issue for years and studied the issue. Did a bunch of band exercises, worked out at the gym, and suddenly it disappeared.
• Ozzie_osman 5y ago
  I do this with two mice (well, one mouse and a trackpad). I had pretty bad repetitive strain in my right wrist. I realized it kicks in after using the mouse for too long. So now when I feel my right wrist start to complain (every few minutes) I just switch to the trackpad with my left hand. It also helps a ton to just learn keyboard shortcuts for everything.
• fnord77 5y ago
  How about two macbooks. then you get a dual display, too. just have to figure out how to synchronize them
• mef51 5y ago
  I use two small keyboards that I velcro strap to my arms just past my hands so that I can move around freely while typing
• mbrodersen 5y ago
  My Kinesis Freestyle 2 is the reason why I can still work as a developer. With any other keyboard my wrists starts hurting after a few hours of work.
• perlpimp 5y ago
  Love the simplicity of this
• someguy101010 5y ago
  i just set my keyboard like this and i can no longer touch type
• CptFribble 5y ago
  I'd like to make an accessory recommendation: get one of those grip-strength things and use it all the time. This did two things for me: 1. Extra strength in hands and forearms makes you more resistant to injury of all kinds there 2. More importantly I think, having extra muscles in your hands and forearms gives you more proprioception feedback to help know when you're putting your hands and wrists in an uncomfortable position. I've read a lot of accounts over time of people who get to full RSI injury stage without realizing their hands were in an awkward position at their desk, but I've never had that problem because my forearms are meaty enough that any odd position pulls a bit on the muscles. I can literally feel when my hands are out of position, so every time I sit at a different desk setup, or change my chair position, I push my keyboard and mouse around until they're all kinds of angled and spaced away from each other and I feel no strain. I also regularly mix up hand/elbow position throughout the day because I can feel strain happening earlier in the muscles before it becomes a problem for my tendons. IANAD, YMMV, etc - but I've been typing/gaming many hours most days for almost two decades and I've yet to experience RSI (knock on wood).
  • dempedempe 5y ago
    How did you increase strength in your hands and forearms?
    • tobr 5y ago
      > get one of those grip-strength things and use it all the time What additional details are you looking for?
      • dempedempe 5y ago
        Oh, I see. Thanks.
  • wibblewobble123 5y ago
    Be careful with these grip strength thingies. If your finger tendons are overworked, using those will exacerbate the problem. I tell from experience. It’s brutal. Tendons aren’t muscles, they don’t fatigue and recover in the same way as muscles, like from doing forearm curls.
• catchmeifyoucan 5y ago
  Odd, I guess this might only work if you have the proper typing form? I never learned to type "properly". I think over-time by brain memorized the key layout. I can type around 70-80WPM, but my typing my mostly index finger based. I tried moving my laptop the side, and using one-hand, but my fingers wanted to reach across the entire keyboard.
• anticodon 5y ago
  I've switched to vim for pain relief. I use vim or vim mode in the IDE (almost any IDE supports it now, I usually use IdeaVIM). Also replaced mouse with a trackball. Using vim means I almost never required to press two keys at once (Alt-something, Ctrl-something). Trackball doesn't cause the same amount of strain as trying to grab a tiny mouse. I use this setup for about 11 years - no more pain.
• nirvdrum 5y ago
  I was a bit surprised by the solution in the article and then again when I saw a load of supporting comments. I have really debilitating pain in my hands and wrists and as far as I can tell, it started with the first MBP I had using chiclet keys. To this day, I can't type on a modern Apple keyboard without my pain flaring up (although the later 2019 model was a big improvement for me). Add on the sharp edge of the laptop right where a wrist might sit and the thing was an ergonomic nightmare for me. For quite some time, I typed by using two pens to peck at the keys. I then spent years on a dictation-based solution to writing code (https://github.com/dictation-toolbox https://github.com/dictation-toolbox). I really thought I was going to have to pursue a new career. Fortunately, I tried a friend's Kinesis Advantage and found that helped alleviate the symptoms. It's hard to convey how much relief I felt. I was skeptical of the Kinesis since it seemed gimmicky and because I had no success with other ergonomic keyboards, but it works for me. It's not pain-free, but it's livable. As a secondary benefit, it can flip to sending Dvorak keypresses. I used to do that at the OS level, but it wouldn't work in some programs and it was really annoying for anyone I might pair program with. The low key travel distance on modern laptops is a killer for me. I don't think I type particularly aggressively, but I did originally learn to type on an Apple IIs. I've found with most chiclet keys that pressing the key bottoms out before my fingers expect and I end up jamming them. I have a work-issued MBP now and it's mostly workable because I can type on an external keyboard at home, but I dread having to travel with this thing. For my personal laptop, I ended up with Lenovo just because it had the best travel distance I could find. It's still a chiclet keyboard though and not nearly as comfortable as older laptops. I really miss the old AlBook MBP keyboard. That was the last laptop I could comfortably use. Apple's equipment is still incredibly popular, so I appreciate that their ergonomics are not problematic for many people. I just never would have thought that an Apple keyboard would have improved RSI symptoms. I'm happy the author found a solution and shared it. Typing in pain is not a pleasant experience and being able to address it for the cost of two keyboards is much cheaper than heading down the medical path.
• h3mb3 5y ago
  My biggest problem is to find keyboards that would have all 3 modifiers on BOTH sides. I use a Mac for work which means in most (split/ergo/tenkeyless) keyboards (depending on the settings applicable) either Ctrl or Alt/Opt is missing from the right side, because e.g. an Fn key or a squeezed-in left arrow is taking their place. I need all 3 modifiers constantly (Ctrl+C in Terminal, enter special characters, use app shortcuts, jump between windows/tabs...)
  • Symbiote 5y ago
    Any mechanical keyboard supporting QMK is fully reprogrammable, so you can either choose one with sufficient keys, or enable one of various options to double-up particular keys. I have an ErgoDash, which has several thumb keys on each side — the size of your hands would determine how many are practical for frequent use. My squeezed-in left arrow key serves as Alt when I hold it down, and Enter is Ctrl if I hold that down.
    • h3mb3 5y ago
      Among the QMK keyboards, it's still very tricky to find a tenkeyless/ergo keyboard with mostly a normal layout (with enough keys between the spacebar and the arrow keys to host all 3 Mac modifier keys). More importantly, I also really haven't yet found a "mechanical" keyswitch (== with a Cherry MX mount) that wouldn't be worse for my RSI than traditional rubber domes (lately I've especially liked the low travel ones, currently Logitech Ergo K860). Sure, it may also be more about the design (or lack of design) in many of these "mechanical" keyboards I've tried that is bad for my specific kind of RSI – it's hard to pin down. Unfortunately, if you want rubber domes, the options are really scarse. I wish the religious fandom around Cherry MX style switches would decrease in the upcoming years, to give more room for new kinds of keyboard innovations.
      • Symbiote 5y ago
        Ah, sorry, I was thinking far too much of the mechanical keyboard nerds when you wrote "ergo". My ErgoDash is a few steps weirder than the Logitech Ergo K860. I find those low-travel keyboards extremely uncomfortable for typing; being unable to replace a much older full-travel ergonomic Logitech keyboard is what drove me to a mechanical alternative. I did find it uncomfortable at first, until I realized I did not need to press the keys anywhere near as hard as I was used to. There are some low-profile MX mount mechanical switches [1], but I have no experience. I did make the gallery [2], but it only has mechanical keyboards – I think other sites cover rubber-dome keyboards adequately. [1] https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Low_Profile https://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Low_Profile [2] https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/ https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/
• rkagerer 5y ago
  I use two mice - one on each side - for the same reason. My body switches between them without even thinking about it, and anecdotally I'd say the relief better than halved the "wear and tear" on each appendage.
• fho 5y ago
  Funny ... I did the exact same thing some years ago. Two cheap Dell OEM keyboards, roughly 60 degrees apart on a concave, L-shaped desk. I found that doing that opened up my chest, instantly making me breath easier. Also it's basically impossible to slough over.
• arvinsim 5y ago
  Might try this out since I have an extra Keychron K2 keyboard that I am not using.
• baligena 5y ago
  There's a great open source keyboard called ergodox.