12 ms·

At what point do we start stretching the definition of what can be allowed on a bike path? 300 kg of cargo at 25 km/h is very close to the momentum of a moped

by carlob 5y ago

At what point do we start stretching the definition of what can be allowed on a bike path? 300 kg of cargo at 25 km/h is very close to the momentum of a moped riding at 50 km/h, which is something I definitely don't want to share a bike path with. For what it's worth when I'm in the mood for racing and I have my good road bike I tend to avoid bike paths as a courtesy to other cyclists (and to avoid getting stuck behind someone slow).

teekert 5y ago
I feel that this is a discussion very must about to become mainstream in the Netherlands. Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes (which here are often not just lanes but complete separate roads with no car-roads around, ie. through a park or forest). It's not just e-bikes and their unexpected speed, everywhere now you can rent "e-choppers", with a wide steering bar and a relaxed attitude. However they are much faster and wider than normal bicycles and you can see the annoyance on the faces of people constantly overtaken by them. 25 KPH is really fast on a bike path, and then they are also silent so they pop out of nowhere. It's not a good combo. Many of these bike lanes are of limits to gasoline scooters ("Fietspad dus niet brommen") I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters (max 45 kph, require helmet, they are partly forced on car-roads, here is an example where scooters leave the bike path to enter the road: [0]). [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67 https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67
- Vinnl 5y ago
  Yeah, in more and more places I think they're sending everything above 25 km/h to the road. At the same time, we see "bicycle streets" emerging more and more, which are just as wide as regular streets (and which can be used by cars), but where the bicycle is the primary vehicle. I think they mostly rose in popularity in response to congestion on regular bike paths, but I feel like they also help with the width and speed issues - although above 25km/h is still quite fast. As I get more used to them though, the ones with a limit of 25 feel less problematic to me.
  - mrsuprawsm 5y ago
    I quite like the bicycle streets, for example in places where there isn't room for a proper segregated bike path, it still makes it clear that drivers are guests in the street (and explicitly calls this out on signs), which definitely makes me feel safer when cycling on such streets, versus regular roads.
    - petre 5y ago
      That doesn't quite for without speed bumps, not in Eastern Europe anyway. Interrupted speed bumps every 100 meters can be a solution for bikes, yet keep cars under 25 kph. Residential areas should effectively be bicycle streets.
      - Vinnl 5y ago
        I did not expect it to work either, but it does. I'm sure they've got a runbook documenting which traffic situations lend themselves to cycle streets (probably some combination of heavy flow of cycle traffic combined with nudges to car drivers to take a different road if possible), but the ones in my city all work great without speed bumps.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo, Uber and so on). Turns out the 25kph is a very well chosen point - it's about as fast as a bike rider on a delivery - maybe 1-2kph faster than the average, and a bit less than one who's really in a hurry. If your legislation allows for faster electric vehicles to share bike lanes, that's a big mistake IMO. Impact energy is proportional with the square of the speed, so crashing at 35 is already double the damage. 50kph is four times as bad, not to mention reaction times.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.
  - teekert 5y ago
    It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...
- beckman466 5y ago
  > Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes > I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters Maybe we should repurpose some older 'provinciale' roads (which often run parallel to some of the major highways) for these new types of compact electric hybrid vehicle-bikes (transportation without an 'inside' or car-like cabin, that leaves the driver exposed), since expecting them to go on car-roads is inconsiderate. That way these new greener alternatives can take off, and their drivers are safe. We should never expect people with e-trailers (and similar) to compete for space with 35 ton lorries/semi trucks. I think this an infrastructural transition/move worth carefully tending to and designing for.
  - teekert 5y ago
    Yeah I like that idea!
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  25 kph is about 15 mph, which is not particularly fast in a bike lane here in the US. It is a lane, not a path; basically a painted shoulder theoretically closed to vehicles. However, most cyclists seem to be riding for sport, few people ride at a sedate pace because you're on the bike to burn calories and improve your fitness, not to get somewhere in normal clothes without becoming sweaty. It feels too dangerous to be a couple feet from all our big SUVs and pickup trucks at 100 kph/55 mph unless you're also going an appreciable fraction of that speed.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    Your city is doing bike lanes wrong :-)
    - scrose 5y ago
      I think you mean ‘Your country’. The US is notoriously bad at prioritizing people over ‘Level of Service’ for cars.
      - shafyy 5y ago
        I lived in SF for a while. While there's a lot of potential, it wasn't as bad as I would have thought.
        browningstreet 5y ago
        I've lived in Amsterdam, Berlin and SF. SF is easily the worst, especially if you want to go biking with your family, even if that family includes an older teenager. Managing 3 people traversing a city shouldn't be as heinous as it is in SF. I've had fun in SF on a bike, bombing around solo -- but it never felt safe.
        shafyy 5y ago
        I live in Berlin and lived in Zurich and SF. I think SF is good for US standards. In Zurich you have fewer bike lanes than in SF, but the drivers are more aware of cyclists so I felt safer. Berlin is investing a lot into biking infrastructure and I feel like there are great bike lanes for almost everyone you want to go (at least in the neighborhoods I go around). Of course, Amsterdam is another ball game :-)
- slaymaker1907 5y ago
  I think 25 km/h is not all that fast in the US for a bike path. It is extremely easy to maintain that speed on even a cheap mountain bike much less a road bike. 25mph is very fast for a bicycle which some ebikes can reach and even exceed. People should definitely only be riding at that speed on roads.
radu_floricica 5y ago
Energy goes with speed squared, so you have only 75kg at double the speed. A fully loaded moped with passenger (we're comparing apples to apples, right?) would be at around 250kg (75+75+100). Also at 25kph both the vehicle and the passengers have more time to react. So yeah, fully loaded the driver/rider would have to pay more attention, but that's true for anything that's fully loaded. Given the shape of the problem, this solution is pretty damn good: green, quiet, small, good looking and reasonably safe. Possibly very safe, if its auto braking works well enough.
- IshKebab 5y ago
  Yeah he said momentum, not energy.
- carlob 5y ago
  Energy goes with speed squared, that's why I said momentum, which doesn't. Also a 50 cc moped with a single passenger would be closer to 150 kg. Pedantics aside, probably the most annoying thing about having this on a bike lane would be the 1 m width, especially considering that some two way bike lanes are just 2 m wide.
  - radu_floricica 5y ago
    I doubt we'll be seeing them behind every bike. And if by any chance we will, most of them will be a lot smaller. I'm big on having this kind of small e-vehicles on the roads, because I think they're the best chance we have on having truly nice, open, clean cities. Using a half-ton monstrosity to go buy a loaf of bread is a horrible waste of, not just resources, but commons. As you said, the worst thing is their size, and that is by necessity limited in urban areas. So if we're going to have this kind of things replace cars, we'll have to be open to a larger ecology of e-vehicles, for various use cases. Including larger ones for cargo, and also the sick grandma that can't ride a bike. Probably the biggest difference of opinion between us is that I see them as replacement for traffic, and so I want them scaled up and separate them from pedestrians as much as practically possible.
  - petre 5y ago
avianlyric 5y ago
The momentum point is very valid. But the slower speeds provide more time for drivers and others to react. That in turn gives you much more time to break and scrub off that extra momentum. At 50kph your reaction distance is about 15 meters, at 25kph it’s half that at 7.5meters. (Assuming reaction time of 1 second, which seems to be a realist value). 7.5 meters is quite a bit of distance, and in a busy city will make a lot of difference.
- nanis 5y ago
  > But the slower speeds provide more time for drivers I can't react to something coming straight at me on my six. And, the drivers of these motorcycles tend to be busy on their phones.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    Those are separate issues to do with driver responsibility and enforcement of existing laws. Applies to existing bikes just as much as e-bikes etc Also how are these people using their phones? Last I checked you need to keep your hands on bars to prevent you from falling over.
    - CDRdude 5y ago
      You only need both hands on the handlebars when starting from a stop. It is very easy to ride with one hand even at slow speeds, and bikes can be ridden with no hands at moderate speeds.
    - frozenrouter 5y ago
      I regularly have to ride my (pedal, non-e) bike one handed due to injuries to one arm and hand. At low to medium speed this is very easy, only becoming an issue with uneven terrain or high speeds. Brakes for one handed operation are also available.
chrismorgan 5y ago
For the last couple of days I’ve been contemplating the idea of converting a grand piano into a road-legal tricycle, with either no motor (which would mean it’d need some extremely low gearing) or no more than 250W (the limit in Australia). It’s more an amusing idea than anything else, but who knows, if the velomobile and trailer I’m planning (with my 11.5kg Yamaha P-45 digital piano built into the trailer as well as a small fridge and other such stuff for indefinite touring as I cycle round the country) goes well, maybe eventually I will convert a grand piano just for fun. It occurred to me today while cycling and mulling over the legal requirements of bicycles in Victoria that if the piano was playable while in motion, it might not even need a bell… (Road Safety Road Rules 2017, 258(b): “a bell, horn, or similar warning device, in working order.”) I’ve also been amusing myself imagining ways this grand piano tricycle could be prepared for certification as a self-contained vehicle in New Zealand (typically the domain of RVs and some vans). If you didn’t care about complying, the basics of camping would actually be fairly simple—sling a hammock underneath it!
- bserge 5y ago
  https://youtu.be/tesr1OyymXo https://youtu.be/tesr1OyymXo heh
- omnicognate 5y ago
  I had a memorable dream once where I was going down the motorway at the keyboard of a grand piano. Please make this a reality.
  - chrismorgan 5y ago
    Look, honestly, if someone delivered a grand piano to me with this request but no expectations, I’d probably try converting it before going ahead with my velomobile. Although it’d require some heavier-duty design (e.g. it’d need something sturdier than my recumbent trike’s two 90mm drum brakes, and typical bike suspension parts would probably not be adequate but I think it’d need suspension, unlike my recumbent trike), it’d be easier in most ways because you’re already acknowledging you don’t care much about weight or aerodynamics, and it’s expected to be fairly ridiculous. (… if that’s you, email me.)
bserge 5y ago
Haha, seeing huge tricycles and cargo ebikes all the time I've been wondering the same. Legally they must be propelled by pedaling... However these ebikes really stretch that definition, the pedals do not directly drive anything, they just work as a throttle. So, if the battery is discharged, the pedals are useless. I've actually been thinking of a similar system, except the pedals drive a generator that charges the battery. This way the bike is motor propelled, you can have a longer battery life by charging it as you ride and it's technically more of a cycle since you could cycle to provide power to the motor. My main thought is that it would reduce/even the load on your knees since you wouldn't need to start/accelerate as often.
- emj 5y ago
  In Europe you can classify things as a bicycle even though they have no pedals, there are some special rules for it one of them is below 20 kph "anything goes".
skocznymroczny 5y ago
I think it depends on the bicycle paths in your country. In Poland, most bicycle paths are fairly thin, barely allowing two people to pass each other. There isn't any extra space for anything remotely resembling a trailer.
nanis 5y ago
How about we start with not allowing motorcycles on the sidewalks? Whether the engine is a two-stroke or electric motor does not matter. In the NYC metro area (including cities/towns in NJ and CT), being on the sidewalk means having to duck heavy electric motorcycles and scooters doing about 20mph with no regard to anyone's safety. In most places, it is already illegal to bike on sidewalks, a rule that is conspicuous in the lack of adherence, but there is absolutely no enforcement.
- carlob 5y ago
  I was once fined for riding a bicycle on a 10 m stretch of sidewalk because the road was congested. A moped and a full sized enduro were on the sidewalk at the same time and got the exact same fine, which is kind of annoying. For reference this was in Paris more than 10 years ago.
fennecfoxen 5y ago
Here in NYC, we already see Amazon (via Whole Foods) abusing the bike lanes. They have a fleet of electric bikes with several large bins towed behind in a trailer. The trailer takes up the whole bike lane (preventing any passing). They've turned massive swaths of the sidewalk outside their Bowery store into a staging area, and the bikes make frequent trips over places like the nearby Williamsburg Bridge, where other cyclists are trying to travel; I consider myself fortunate that I only need to bike in that area occasionally. Of course, these bike lanes are also home to a growing moped infestation, and law enforcement doesn't care about that, either, and they don't do much about the (privately operated) school buses that routinely park in the Vernon Boulevard bike lanes near the Department of Education facility at 44th Rd, either, so, I guess there's just an open invitation to abuse the commons.
- yellow_lead 5y ago
  The NYC mention reminds me of Bike Lanes by Neistat[1]. Sounds like the situation has deteriorated, I'd be interested to see a 2021 version. [1] https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQh https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQh
- rdiddly 5y ago
  The cops themselves park in the bike lanes near precincts all over town, too.
  - fennecfoxen 5y ago
    Oh, the cops just park all over everywhere. Fire department, too. On the sidewalk, half on the sidewalk, in the crosswalks, over the ADA sidewalk ramps in neighborhoods where they get good amounts of use — hardly worth mentioning the bike lanes at that point. Check out this massive permanent NYPD/FDNY parking-lot that starts on the freeway shoulder and goes along Tillary St / Gold St. These guys are here basically every day: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6970284,-73.9813054,3a,75y,359.59h,79.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx2P54OwGXRAWgfM9zW7qgg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6970284,-73.9813054,3a,75y,3... https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6962375,-73.9813369,3a,75y,61.5h,65.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWJSV_AhFOLw5UWpr3krz5g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6962375,-73.9813369,3a,75y,6... And that's not even a bad day; there's only one or two cars parked on the long narrow triangle where the onramp merges with the street. And the ambulance drivers park in the bike lanes to take a nap or for their lunch break. And the Post Office parks wherever and they just doesn't care, because they're federal, and you can't fine them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ohazi 5y ago
Are these trailers big/bulky/scary enough to convince someone driving a car or truck to finally pass a bike safely (i.e. by changing lanes completely rather than whizzing by?). If so, it might be a useful addition for cyclists who want to drive in a car lane without getting run over.
btbuildem 5y ago
Thank you for considering this in terms of physics. I believe vehicle rules should vary depending on the potential for damage a vehicle can do. A cyclist running a stop sign would have negligible consequences compared to a fully loaded dump truck doing the same. A heavy cargo trailer towed by a cyclist (who thinks and acts like a cyclist, not a driver) definitely does not belong on a bike path.
josefresco 5y ago
> when I'm in the mood for racing and I have my good road bike I tend to avoid bike paths as a courtesy to other cyclists Please share this advice with your fellow bike racing enthusiasts. I reside on Cape Cod, which has a rather famous and busy bike trail. My kids and I have been almost run over, and scolded by spandex wearing weekend Tour de France warriors several times. If you want to race, stay off bike trails.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  Cincinnati here. Might want to hit them up too. There are droves of "dentists" riding $10k road bikes in $2k worth of gear pretending to be on the Roubaix and acting the total asshole on a multi-use trail. As an avid cyclist I make it a point not to ride the same bikes or get all kitted out because I don't want to be associated with that crowd. I also observe the rules of the path...enough to make one stand out.
datavirtue 5y ago
Came here to bring this up. I'm consistently seeing adults and many under driving age flying down bike paths at 20mph through congested pedestrian and bycicle areas. My wife was almost hit by a cyclist that was thrown off course and had to perform an emergency stop because of two clueless fucks on hover boards. I really have zero problem with ebikes making cycling and mobility possible for people but they are a flip of the wrist away from fucking up someone's life on an otherwise peaceful and very safe bike path.
slaymaker1907 5y ago
I love ebikes, but I agree further regulation is needed to limit the amount of power these bikes can have rather than just limiting speed like laws do right now. I have asthma and climbing big hills next to a bunch of cars (which happens a lot where I live due to lots of hills) is very difficult for me to do. It's because of this that I would use an ebike even if it were only able to carry me up said hills at 10mph (slow but still fast enough to be stable) while avoiding giving me an asthma attack.
- gnarcoregrizz 5y ago
  We don't limit the amount of horsepower or top speed of cars and motorcycles. Limiting power and top speed is futile. You can actually enforce speed limits with radar, but checking power output requires testing it on a dyno, which can easily be cheated with a switch or remote. Half of ebikes for sale are technically street illegal anyway. Federal law limits them to 750w 28mph until pedal assisted... while some stick to this, they can do 2kw burst and cruise at 750w sustained. Some just flat out ignore it and pull 5-7kw off the shelf. Some conversions pull 15kw and do 80 mph. Here's a regular looking SCOOTER that does 75mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-IqhezeZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-IqhezeZw
Animats 5y ago
Someone who is into both e-bikes and motorcycles has a good answer to this. He put an e-bike hub motor with a motorcycle-sized wheel on a motorcycle frame. The result has about the performance of a class 3 e-bike, but it's a better vehicle.[1] You sit lower, so the CG is lower, and if something goes wrong you tend to slide, not go over the handlebars. You have motorcycle-grade tires, brakes, and suspension, so the stopping distances are much shorter than with an e-bike. But you can't take the thing in a bike lane. And it requires a motorcycle license. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM8Xli2KTzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM8Xli2KTzI
- baxuz 5y ago
  I'm so glad that e-bikes are assist limited to 25km/h in Croatia.
MisterTea 5y ago
> For what it's worth when I'm in the mood for racing and I have my good road bike I tend to avoid bike paths as a courtesy to other cyclists (and to avoid getting stuck behind someone slow). Thank you. As a casual cyclist who enjoys a weekend ride along the bike paths in NYC I cant help but hold contempt for some of the entitled road hog racing cyclists.
u801e 5y ago
> 300 kg of cargo at 25 km/h is very close to the momentum of a moped riding at 50 km/h, which is something I definitely don't want to share a bike path with. Why does the mass or momentum of a particular vehicle driver combination matter in terms of sharing a particular resource? Drivers of motor vehicles like cars share the road with other motor vehicles that are significantly more massive, yet no one says that they shouldn't have to share the road with those heavier vehicles because of their mass and/or momentum.

by carlob 5y ago

teekert 5y ago

I feel that this is a discussion very must about to become mainstream in the Netherlands. Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes (which here are often not just lanes but complete separate roads with no car-roads around, ie. through a park or forest). It's not just e-bikes and their unexpected speed, everywhere now you can rent "e-choppers", with a wide steering bar and a relaxed attitude. However they are much faster and wider than normal bicycles and you can see the annoyance on the faces of people constantly overtaken by them. 25 KPH is really fast on a bike path, and then they are also silent so they pop out of nowhere. It's not a good combo. Many of these bike lanes are of limits to gasoline scooters ("Fietspad dus niet brommen") I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters (max 45 kph, require helmet, they are partly forced on car-roads, here is an example where scooters leave the bike path to enter the road: [0]). [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67 https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67

Vinnl 5y ago
Yeah, in more and more places I think they're sending everything above 25 km/h to the road. At the same time, we see "bicycle streets" emerging more and more, which are just as wide as regular streets (and which can be used by cars), but where the bicycle is the primary vehicle. I think they mostly rose in popularity in response to congestion on regular bike paths, but I feel like they also help with the width and speed issues - although above 25km/h is still quite fast. As I get more used to them though, the ones with a limit of 25 feel less problematic to me.
- mrsuprawsm 5y ago
  I quite like the bicycle streets, for example in places where there isn't room for a proper segregated bike path, it still makes it clear that drivers are guests in the street (and explicitly calls this out on signs), which definitely makes me feel safer when cycling on such streets, versus regular roads.
  - petre 5y ago
    That doesn't quite for without speed bumps, not in Eastern Europe anyway. Interrupted speed bumps every 100 meters can be a solution for bikes, yet keep cars under 25 kph. Residential areas should effectively be bicycle streets.
    - Vinnl 5y ago
      I did not expect it to work either, but it does. I'm sure they've got a runbook documenting which traffic situations lend themselves to cycle streets (probably some combination of heavy flow of cycle traffic combined with nudges to car drivers to take a different road if possible), but the ones in my city all work great without speed bumps.
radu_floricica 5y ago
How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo, Uber and so on). Turns out the 25kph is a very well chosen point - it's about as fast as a bike rider on a delivery - maybe 1-2kph faster than the average, and a bit less than one who's really in a hurry. If your legislation allows for faster electric vehicles to share bike lanes, that's a big mistake IMO. Impact energy is proportional with the square of the speed, so crashing at 35 is already double the damage. 50kph is four times as bad, not to mention reaction times.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.
- teekert 5y ago
  It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...
beckman466 5y ago
> Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes > I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters Maybe we should repurpose some older 'provinciale' roads (which often run parallel to some of the major highways) for these new types of compact electric hybrid vehicle-bikes (transportation without an 'inside' or car-like cabin, that leaves the driver exposed), since expecting them to go on car-roads is inconsiderate. That way these new greener alternatives can take off, and their drivers are safe. We should never expect people with e-trailers (and similar) to compete for space with 35 ton lorries/semi trucks. I think this an infrastructural transition/move worth carefully tending to and designing for.
- teekert 5y ago
  Yeah I like that idea!
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
25 kph is about 15 mph, which is not particularly fast in a bike lane here in the US. It is a lane, not a path; basically a painted shoulder theoretically closed to vehicles. However, most cyclists seem to be riding for sport, few people ride at a sedate pace because you're on the bike to burn calories and improve your fitness, not to get somewhere in normal clothes without becoming sweaty. It feels too dangerous to be a couple feet from all our big SUVs and pickup trucks at 100 kph/55 mph unless you're also going an appreciable fraction of that speed.
- shafyy 5y ago
  Your city is doing bike lanes wrong :-)
  - scrose 5y ago
    I think you mean ‘Your country’. The US is notoriously bad at prioritizing people over ‘Level of Service’ for cars.
    - shafyy 5y ago
      I lived in SF for a while. While there's a lot of potential, it wasn't as bad as I would have thought.
      - browningstreet 5y ago
        I've lived in Amsterdam, Berlin and SF. SF is easily the worst, especially if you want to go biking with your family, even if that family includes an older teenager. Managing 3 people traversing a city shouldn't be as heinous as it is in SF. I've had fun in SF on a bike, bombing around solo -- but it never felt safe.
        shafyy 5y ago
        I live in Berlin and lived in Zurich and SF. I think SF is good for US standards. In Zurich you have fewer bike lanes than in SF, but the drivers are more aware of cyclists so I felt safer. Berlin is investing a lot into biking infrastructure and I feel like there are great bike lanes for almost everyone you want to go (at least in the neighborhoods I go around). Of course, Amsterdam is another ball game :-)
slaymaker1907 5y ago
I think 25 km/h is not all that fast in the US for a bike path. It is extremely easy to maintain that speed on even a cheap mountain bike much less a road bike. 25mph is very fast for a bicycle which some ebikes can reach and even exceed. People should definitely only be riding at that speed on roads.

radu_floricica 5y ago

Energy goes with speed squared, so you have only 75kg at double the speed. A fully loaded moped with passenger (we're comparing apples to apples, right?) would be at around 250kg (75+75+100). Also at 25kph both the vehicle and the passengers have more time to react. So yeah, fully loaded the driver/rider would have to pay more attention, but that's true for anything that's fully loaded. Given the shape of the problem, this solution is pretty damn good: green, quiet, small, good looking and reasonably safe. Possibly very safe, if its auto braking works well enough.

IshKebab 5y ago
Yeah he said momentum, not energy.
carlob 5y ago
Energy goes with speed squared, that's why I said momentum, which doesn't. Also a 50 cc moped with a single passenger would be closer to 150 kg. Pedantics aside, probably the most annoying thing about having this on a bike lane would be the 1 m width, especially considering that some two way bike lanes are just 2 m wide.
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  I doubt we'll be seeing them behind every bike. And if by any chance we will, most of them will be a lot smaller. I'm big on having this kind of small e-vehicles on the roads, because I think they're the best chance we have on having truly nice, open, clean cities. Using a half-ton monstrosity to go buy a loaf of bread is a horrible waste of, not just resources, but commons. As you said, the worst thing is their size, and that is by necessity limited in urban areas. So if we're going to have this kind of things replace cars, we'll have to be open to a larger ecology of e-vehicles, for various use cases. Including larger ones for cargo, and also the sick grandma that can't ride a bike. Probably the biggest difference of opinion between us is that I see them as replacement for traffic, and so I want them scaled up and separate them from pedestrians as much as practically possible.
- petre 5y ago

avianlyric 5y ago

The momentum point is very valid. But the slower speeds provide more time for drivers and others to react. That in turn gives you much more time to break and scrub off that extra momentum. At 50kph your reaction distance is about 15 meters, at 25kph it’s half that at 7.5meters. (Assuming reaction time of 1 second, which seems to be a realist value). 7.5 meters is quite a bit of distance, and in a busy city will make a lot of difference.

nanis 5y ago
> But the slower speeds provide more time for drivers I can't react to something coming straight at me on my six. And, the drivers of these motorcycles tend to be busy on their phones.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Those are separate issues to do with driver responsibility and enforcement of existing laws. Applies to existing bikes just as much as e-bikes etc Also how are these people using their phones? Last I checked you need to keep your hands on bars to prevent you from falling over.
  - CDRdude 5y ago
    You only need both hands on the handlebars when starting from a stop. It is very easy to ride with one hand even at slow speeds, and bikes can be ridden with no hands at moderate speeds.
  - frozenrouter 5y ago
    I regularly have to ride my (pedal, non-e) bike one handed due to injuries to one arm and hand. At low to medium speed this is very easy, only becoming an issue with uneven terrain or high speeds. Brakes for one handed operation are also available.

chrismorgan 5y ago

For the last couple of days I’ve been contemplating the idea of converting a grand piano into a road-legal tricycle, with either no motor (which would mean it’d need some extremely low gearing) or no more than 250W (the limit in Australia). It’s more an amusing idea than anything else, but who knows, if the velomobile and trailer I’m planning (with my 11.5kg Yamaha P-45 digital piano built into the trailer as well as a small fridge and other such stuff for indefinite touring as I cycle round the country) goes well, maybe eventually I will convert a grand piano just for fun. It occurred to me today while cycling and mulling over the legal requirements of bicycles in Victoria that if the piano was playable while in motion, it might not even need a bell… (Road Safety Road Rules 2017, 258(b): “a bell, horn, or similar warning device, in working order.”) I’ve also been amusing myself imagining ways this grand piano tricycle could be prepared for certification as a self-contained vehicle in New Zealand (typically the domain of RVs and some vans). If you didn’t care about complying, the basics of camping would actually be fairly simple—sling a hammock underneath it!

bserge 5y ago
https://youtu.be/tesr1OyymXo https://youtu.be/tesr1OyymXo heh
omnicognate 5y ago
I had a memorable dream once where I was going down the motorway at the keyboard of a grand piano. Please make this a reality.
- chrismorgan 5y ago
  Look, honestly, if someone delivered a grand piano to me with this request but no expectations, I’d probably try converting it before going ahead with my velomobile. Although it’d require some heavier-duty design (e.g. it’d need something sturdier than my recumbent trike’s two 90mm drum brakes, and typical bike suspension parts would probably not be adequate but I think it’d need suspension, unlike my recumbent trike), it’d be easier in most ways because you’re already acknowledging you don’t care much about weight or aerodynamics, and it’s expected to be fairly ridiculous. (… if that’s you, email me.)

bserge 5y ago

Haha, seeing huge tricycles and cargo ebikes all the time I've been wondering the same. Legally they must be propelled by pedaling... However these ebikes really stretch that definition, the pedals do not directly drive anything, they just work as a throttle. So, if the battery is discharged, the pedals are useless. I've actually been thinking of a similar system, except the pedals drive a generator that charges the battery. This way the bike is motor propelled, you can have a longer battery life by charging it as you ride and it's technically more of a cycle since you could cycle to provide power to the motor. My main thought is that it would reduce/even the load on your knees since you wouldn't need to start/accelerate as often.

emj 5y ago
In Europe you can classify things as a bicycle even though they have no pedals, there are some special rules for it one of them is below 20 kph "anything goes".

skocznymroczny 5y ago

I think it depends on the bicycle paths in your country. In Poland, most bicycle paths are fairly thin, barely allowing two people to pass each other. There isn't any extra space for anything remotely resembling a trailer.

nanis 5y ago

How about we start with not allowing motorcycles on the sidewalks? Whether the engine is a two-stroke or electric motor does not matter. In the NYC metro area (including cities/towns in NJ and CT), being on the sidewalk means having to duck heavy electric motorcycles and scooters doing about 20mph with no regard to anyone's safety. In most places, it is already illegal to bike on sidewalks, a rule that is conspicuous in the lack of adherence, but there is absolutely no enforcement.

carlob 5y ago
I was once fined for riding a bicycle on a 10 m stretch of sidewalk because the road was congested. A moped and a full sized enduro were on the sidewalk at the same time and got the exact same fine, which is kind of annoying. For reference this was in Paris more than 10 years ago.

fennecfoxen 5y ago

Here in NYC, we already see Amazon (via Whole Foods) abusing the bike lanes. They have a fleet of electric bikes with several large bins towed behind in a trailer. The trailer takes up the whole bike lane (preventing any passing). They've turned massive swaths of the sidewalk outside their Bowery store into a staging area, and the bikes make frequent trips over places like the nearby Williamsburg Bridge, where other cyclists are trying to travel; I consider myself fortunate that I only need to bike in that area occasionally. Of course, these bike lanes are also home to a growing moped infestation, and law enforcement doesn't care about that, either, and they don't do much about the (privately operated) school buses that routinely park in the Vernon Boulevard bike lanes near the Department of Education facility at 44th Rd, either, so, I guess there's just an open invitation to abuse the commons.

yellow_lead 5y ago
The NYC mention reminds me of Bike Lanes by Neistat[1]. Sounds like the situation has deteriorated, I'd be interested to see a 2021 version. [1] https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQh https://youtu.be/bzE-IMaegzQh
rdiddly 5y ago
The cops themselves park in the bike lanes near precincts all over town, too.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  Oh, the cops just park all over everywhere. Fire department, too. On the sidewalk, half on the sidewalk, in the crosswalks, over the ADA sidewalk ramps in neighborhoods where they get good amounts of use — hardly worth mentioning the bike lanes at that point. Check out this massive permanent NYPD/FDNY parking-lot that starts on the freeway shoulder and goes along Tillary St / Gold St. These guys are here basically every day: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6970284,-73.9813054,3a,75y,359.59h,79.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx2P54OwGXRAWgfM9zW7qgg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6970284,-73.9813054,3a,75y,3... https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6962375,-73.9813369,3a,75y,61.5h,65.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWJSV_AhFOLw5UWpr3krz5g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6962375,-73.9813369,3a,75y,6... And that's not even a bad day; there's only one or two cars parked on the long narrow triangle where the onramp merges with the street. And the ambulance drivers park in the bike lanes to take a nap or for their lunch break. And the Post Office parks wherever and they just doesn't care, because they're federal, and you can't fine them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ohazi 5y ago

Are these trailers big/bulky/scary enough to convince someone driving a car or truck to finally pass a bike safely (i.e. by changing lanes completely rather than whizzing by?). If so, it might be a useful addition for cyclists who want to drive in a car lane without getting run over.

btbuildem 5y ago

Thank you for considering this in terms of physics. I believe vehicle rules should vary depending on the potential for damage a vehicle can do. A cyclist running a stop sign would have negligible consequences compared to a fully loaded dump truck doing the same. A heavy cargo trailer towed by a cyclist (who thinks and acts like a cyclist, not a driver) definitely does not belong on a bike path.

josefresco 5y ago

> when I'm in the mood for racing and I have my good road bike I tend to avoid bike paths as a courtesy to other cyclists Please share this advice with your fellow bike racing enthusiasts. I reside on Cape Cod, which has a rather famous and busy bike trail. My kids and I have been almost run over, and scolded by spandex wearing weekend Tour de France warriors several times. If you want to race, stay off bike trails.

datavirtue 5y ago
Cincinnati here. Might want to hit them up too. There are droves of "dentists" riding $10k road bikes in $2k worth of gear pretending to be on the Roubaix and acting the total asshole on a multi-use trail. As an avid cyclist I make it a point not to ride the same bikes or get all kitted out because I don't want to be associated with that crowd. I also observe the rules of the path...enough to make one stand out.

datavirtue 5y ago

Came here to bring this up. I'm consistently seeing adults and many under driving age flying down bike paths at 20mph through congested pedestrian and bycicle areas. My wife was almost hit by a cyclist that was thrown off course and had to perform an emergency stop because of two clueless fucks on hover boards. I really have zero problem with ebikes making cycling and mobility possible for people but they are a flip of the wrist away from fucking up someone's life on an otherwise peaceful and very safe bike path.

slaymaker1907 5y ago

I love ebikes, but I agree further regulation is needed to limit the amount of power these bikes can have rather than just limiting speed like laws do right now. I have asthma and climbing big hills next to a bunch of cars (which happens a lot where I live due to lots of hills) is very difficult for me to do. It's because of this that I would use an ebike even if it were only able to carry me up said hills at 10mph (slow but still fast enough to be stable) while avoiding giving me an asthma attack.

gnarcoregrizz 5y ago
We don't limit the amount of horsepower or top speed of cars and motorcycles. Limiting power and top speed is futile. You can actually enforce speed limits with radar, but checking power output requires testing it on a dyno, which can easily be cheated with a switch or remote. Half of ebikes for sale are technically street illegal anyway. Federal law limits them to 750w 28mph until pedal assisted... while some stick to this, they can do 2kw burst and cruise at 750w sustained. Some just flat out ignore it and pull 5-7kw off the shelf. Some conversions pull 15kw and do 80 mph. Here's a regular looking SCOOTER that does 75mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-IqhezeZw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn-IqhezeZw

Animats 5y ago

Someone who is into both e-bikes and motorcycles has a good answer to this. He put an e-bike hub motor with a motorcycle-sized wheel on a motorcycle frame. The result has about the performance of a class 3 e-bike, but it's a better vehicle.[1] You sit lower, so the CG is lower, and if something goes wrong you tend to slide, not go over the handlebars. You have motorcycle-grade tires, brakes, and suspension, so the stopping distances are much shorter than with an e-bike. But you can't take the thing in a bike lane. And it requires a motorcycle license. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM8Xli2KTzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM8Xli2KTzI

baxuz 5y ago
I'm so glad that e-bikes are assist limited to 25km/h in Croatia.

MisterTea 5y ago

> For what it's worth when I'm in the mood for racing and I have my good road bike I tend to avoid bike paths as a courtesy to other cyclists (and to avoid getting stuck behind someone slow). Thank you. As a casual cyclist who enjoys a weekend ride along the bike paths in NYC I cant help but hold contempt for some of the entitled road hog racing cyclists.

u801e 5y ago

> 300 kg of cargo at 25 km/h is very close to the momentum of a moped riding at 50 km/h, which is something I definitely don't want to share a bike path with. Why does the mass or momentum of a particular vehicle driver combination matter in terms of sharing a particular resource? Drivers of motor vehicles like cars share the road with other motor vehicles that are significantly more massive, yet no one says that they shouldn't have to share the road with those heavier vehicles because of their mass and/or momentum.